Subaru: I'm coming back to you. I hope your quality is on point.
 

I bought a new in 2004 WRX, and it completely put a bad taste in my mouth for Subarus. While I liked the turbocharged and AWD aspects of the car, the rest of it was so unrefined that it was a complete turn-off. Hell, I still think it was ridiculous that my car prior to the WRX, a used 1995 Integra GS-R, had a much better transmission than the WRX in terms of clutch and shifter feel. Not to mention the Integra was much more refined overall than the Subaru.

After reading about the BRZ, seeing it at the DC Auto Show and sitting in it, reading some more, watching videos, and finally driving it this past week; I still can't believe Subaru turned me back around. Well, of course Toyota was the catalyst to this chemical reaction... I cannot deny a certain refinement to the car... dare I say, there is an almost Honda like quality (you know, back when they gave a shit about building engaging cars) to the BRZ that I feel would not be present if Subaru were left to its own devices.

Speaking of Honda's, one of my favorite features of the TL I now own is that even after 50,000 miles, it still feels just about as good as the day it was slapped together. I can only hope that Subaru will now finally match Honda at this performance metric with Toyota's help. *I would also like to pause for a moment and reflect on how crazy that last sentence is* I know the BRZ is being built at Subaru's plant, but so are the Toyota variants of the car. I can only hope Toyota, being the prime financial stakeholder, was wise enough to inject some of its manufacturing and quality control ethos into Subaru.

Hey, Subaru, I know I am just one guy; but if you screw this car up in terms of production quality, then as Danny DeVito would say, "You're dead to me." This, of course, barres some of the first run niggles that can be found. I am talking longer term ownership here. This is also not some sort of weird threat. It is just that cars like this are not really built anymore. In a sea of SUVs and lame-o-matic transmissions, cars like the BRZ are somewhat of an endangered species. That's why I hope you are taking this car as seriously as I am. Don't let something like poor quality ruin this car... and my opinion of you as a company.

I agree with this. My legacy with 4,xxx miles on it already has 3 or 4 annoying rattles and had 2 recalls.

Econobox. Deal with it.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about a car built off the Impreza chassis, aimed towards the Impreza's customer demographic. But we are not, so I don't.

Another great post...and couldn't agree more. I'm worried about this car holding together...but I'm willing to take a leap of faith as well...but you'll only fool me once Subaru.
Interesting comparison to Honda as well. They have most certainly lost their way. I have a 2004 TSX...that now has 200K on it...yes I said 200K. That car has been bulletproof and for its time, set new standards for 4 cylinder luxury performance albeit a front driver.
Handled well enough (although not even close to BRZ league)...was fairly responsive, 200hp, 166ft-lbs sound familiar? Except 3200 big heavy lbs. which meant about 7.4 0-60
And by the way...paid about 29K for it in '04. So I'm hoping lightning can strike twice for me...and the BRZ seems like a better although less luxurious version of what I saw and experienced in the TSX...

hah I have a 2003 Accord 4 cyl which is essentially the same except less luxury, just hit 105k miles. Only oil changes and regular maintenance. I hope the BRZ can be the same thing :D

I owned a 2005 WRX and a 2008 STI and both cars were very reliable and super fun cars to own. OP, a manual AWD Subaru is NEVER going to shift like any Honda/Acura out there...they're two completely different animals. With that said, the first mods I would do to my Subarus was upgrade to some stiffer shifter bushings and throw in a short shifter. After doing this, the shifting feel is MUCH improved and more enjoyable while daily driving, a very simple fix.

I have no doubt the BRZ is going to be a very reliable car. It might have some small issues pop up since it's a brand new platform but that's to be expected with any new car like this.

Subarus have always been known for having rattles and little quirks. The transmission in the WRXs is vague/rubbery and 2nd gear was a weak point in early models. That's why shifter bushings are one of the first mods a lot of owners do. At heart, it's still an econobox with a powerful engine.

That being said, I didn't buy my '02 WRX for its interior/fit and finish and the car has proven to be extremely reliable. My '11 has rattles and what not, but I knew that would be the case and mechanically it has been perfect so far. It's part of owning a Subaru. I'm betting the Toyota relationship will help fix some of those issues. As long as the car is mechanically reliable, it won't really bother me.

I get where you're coming from though, especially if you're comparing it to a Honda/Acura. I fully expect it to be quite reliable, but not without some annoyances and rattles.

My WRX is my all time favorite car I've driven in yet. I travel for my company and have rented a lot of other cars out there, but my WRX surpasses them for me in comfort as well as driving ability. So it's pretty much reverse to me when you say you hope toyota puts its manufacturing and quality control ethos in them.

Every company has their few bad eggs, you guys must've gotten a few. Subaru, by no means, is perfect, but I enjoy driving my subaru than any of the toyotas I've driven/rented



But as far as interior goes... subarus are still econoboxes..

See that's the thing, I actually think the interior of the BRZ is kind of nice. It tells me that they care. I want the car to sell well. That is why I am really hoping they do better than their past track record on quality. Also, to be clear, I am mainly focusing on the craftsmanship side of quality. I think it is safe to say that Subaru builds a very reliable vehicle. If a zombie apocalypse goes down, you'll find me scooping undead brains off a top-mount intercooler as I make my way around.

It is also worth noting that the BRZ, unlike the Impreza, is a car that does not seem to have any off-road pretenses. I am hoping for tighter tolerances and a little less rattling befitting an on-road vehicle.

I will concede that we are not talking about a luxury vehicle over here, but even Honda and Toyota slaps their lower rung cars together generally better than Subaru does their entire line. I will also admit that rattles do piss the hell out of me. Sooo... yeah. :bonk:

Being the primary stakeholder for this project, I imagine Toyota would've had large say in installing quality manufacturing robots/tooling and mandated their best practices. Same with other details such as setting and keeping within design tolerances and selecting parts suppliers. This has been Toyota's MO in other past joint ventures with GM. Manufacturing and quality control of this car would be more Toyota-influenced (vs. the rest of Subaru's line of cars) for it to literally wear Toyota's badge of approval.

I'm sorry but does Toyota still put out quality cars?

I honestly don't know. I know they did in the 90's because that's the only I have had experience with but from what I've seen on a more recent camry...it's filled with mismatched color LED lights and they aren't anything more or less than average with NVH and relevant "quality" criteria considered.

For the most part Subarus are extremely reliable vehicles despite the occasional rattles and clunks, that's why they have a program where people put badges on their cars saying how many they've owned... They have pretty much the highest brand loyalty in the industry. The BRZ will be my 9th Subaru...

I put 100K hard miles on my 2002 WRX in only a few years and nothing ever broke on it that wasn't self inflicted.

I seriously doubt Subaru is doing anything different than they would for any other car they build. They have been one of the only growing automakers in the last few years for a reason, and it's not because they are making terrible cars.

My Dad still drives around in a 87 Accord about to hit 500k on the first engine..

This has changed recently IMO. I went through basically my entire drivetrain on a 2007 STI without tracking it, or really thrashing... Save a few donuts in the snow and on the beach... Literally the only things that hadn't been replaced, or weren't giving me issues before I unloaded it were the rear differential, clutch and the driveline.


You can also say similar things about Toyota. My friend recently bought a lemon of a Tacoma. Seems like most Japanese car makers aren't what they were 15-20 years ago.

I'm not sure how Subaru conducts business but I've once worked at a Toyota-GM plant so that's where my joint venture comment came from. I've no doubt Subaru is up there. All car makers, foreign and domestic, have caught up with each other in quality. That's why I decided to get a Suzuki after having owned several Toyotas and being raised in a Toyota-only family. Build quality among different makes are on par with each other in modern times. But remember there will be 5x or more 86s than BRZs sold worldwide. I think Toyota would assert their hand in quality in combination with Subaru's know-how on this particular car. It's simply due diligence.

Actually I believe that is only in America. I read somewhere thst they are seriously declining in Europe and moderately declining at home.

^+1. Credit that to their genius American marketing. When I was cross-shopping the Impreza and SX4 late last year, I read Suzuki exceeds Subaru in sales and reputation for quality in Japan and worldwide.

Yup. Even Mitsubishi is doing pretty across the globe, but not in the US. :iono:

www.subaru-global.com/

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/su...-q1-19689.html

Nope, they are doing better than ever and have no reason to expect differently. (Not scrounging for the exact euro data)

It may have to do with Subaru's terrible (until rather recently) fuel economy.

Re-read that autoevolution article carefully. The data is very selective.

Their Europe numbers are terrible. Something like only 10k more units than Australia.

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/ir/corporate/vision.html

They are targeting a real increase of 40% overal over their 5 year plan but are focusing on the US market (good) and Chinese market (much lower profit margins but one of the few markets that have significant growth potential if there is no economic collapse/revolution...)

04 wrx or sti is what you call "testing" stage of imprezas. they tried to throw in different things and it just didnt work. however, 05 had so many revisions with different material and parts that made 10x better than 04.
I actually hated my friends 04, evo like quality with cheap materials. but quality of 05 was great.

Yeah, my 2004 WRX was really rough cut. The turbo was cool, the AWD traction was cool, but every other aspect of the car blew. That WRX was/is the worst car I have ever owned.

coming from now my second Accord I have some really high standards on how an engine should perform. if I start seeing engine problems before 300K i'm gonna be pissed....:thumbsup:

1st '92 Accord sold @ 378,000km with not one sign of engine problems.
2nd (current) '00 Accord @ 260,000km with not a singe problem thus far.

...suspension not so much lol - I drive hard. :party0030:

Define "perform".

Isn't Subaru #1 in Consumer Reports' Manufacturer Quality rating?

My '03 WRX which has 100k+ miles and I've owned since new has been decent. Mine has the 4EAT transmission, which includes a great AWD system (similar to STi but without center ratio control) but also bogs badly if you nail the gas from a stop. (goes much slower than if you just roll into it - after a while you know exactly how to roll into it for fastest starts.)

They changed the seat design in 2004, as well as some other bits - I think it really cheapened it. As I went from a loaded E39 to the WRX, I thought the Subaru was pretty bare bones. People have commented how nice the interior is and how well the car rides. It does ride rather good in stock form.

If Subaru puts the same level of attention into the BRZ, I will be happy. If not, it will be a short lived purchase.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/ab4bdad5.jpg

I had a 2005 WRX, I liked every bit of it. Mine didn't have any rattles. Before I sold it, I had stage 2, springs, some suspension bits, kartboy short shifter + tic bushings, oz ultra leggeras, etc. It was one of my favorite cars I ever had, even better than my IS250, well besides the comfort. It was reliable and fun.

You compared it to a TL and an Integra GSR, both under the luxury brand Acura, totally different from the WRX.

From what I had heard Subaru US plant quality was not as good as what come from in Japan?
Heard from lots of US guys had said they had rattles and some werid electrical problems.
But have never heard of owners of Japan assembled versons having the same probs.

The integra has nothing in common with a TL. It's far from a luxury car.

Yes, Toyota still puts out quality cars. :cool:

I'm not expecting Honda level engine life. But because this will be a N/A engine which is capable of handling a lot more power - I'm hoping for an engine that if kept n/a and maintained properly that it'll remain trouble free and hopefully outlast the body like my previous cars.

it'll make for a great donor engine in ten - fifteen years when I'm in need of a engine for my $500 lemons racecar at the time. :thumbsup:

Turbo vehicles are all assembled in Japan. My WRX rattles and has plenty of odd noises, trust me.

Dang, no one buys Subaru for refinement and quality interior. Same as people buying BMW not for their long-term quality, or buying a Dodge Viper for comfort and daily driver, you want to get your calf get burned, that's why you want to buy a Viper. You are buying Subaru for its quirkyness, and you are missing the point...

Also, Subaru has always advertised it as last forever (Forester and new Impreza commercial comes to mind). Refinement and quality is DIFFERENT THING for different people. They have rattles since day one with all of my three Subarus (impreza, wrx, and sti), yes, it's annoying, but none of them had what you would bring them into a dealer and can be fixed. I feel it's much better than the quality you said the Toyota has (my family's Camry's door weather strip fell apart in year 2, 2008 Camry, and the headlights burned out also in year 2. The Corola my friend has, the instrument panel went out on the highway all of sudden etc.).