Disabling Traction Control (TC) and Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) Completely
 

Hi guys,

Yesterday was the 1st time i tested, played around with a Subaru BRZ 6 speed auto.
I would like to find out if anyone on this forum are really familiar with the handling dynamics of the car.

1st impression is that it was a nice car all rounder and a streetable car.
However i've some questions regarding the TC and VSC as i do not have an owners manual i can refer to plus the local distributor themselves are not to well versed with the car either.

After dabbling around i realise we have the option of:
1. Engage VSC for a sportier handling.
2. Engage TC off to allow some wheel spin.
3. Engage TC off and VSC to allow to have slight more fun.
4. Press and hold TC off until the TC wil turn off and engages VSC to allow to have "even more fun".

However i noticed something. Everytime i try turning off TC (option 1, 2, 3) the system will allow the wheels to spin initially.
However the car feels like the VSC is always working in the background (however there is a noticeable VSC intervention).
And if say u are experiencing excessive wheel spin and encountering some opposite steering wheel lock, the SILLY VSC lights will reign in the fun and start flickering and the TC will turn back on (This surprisingly applies on option 4 too).

So i was wondering is the car made this way that you cannot turn off the VSC and TC at all if you just wanna hoon the car around at a designated area (Yes i am aware of the media hype that it can be turned off but in practice i could not remove all the electronic stabilities/ nannies).

How do i want to TURN OFF all TC and VSC completely if it can be done?

Btw i tried to download the owners manaul of the 86 on this forum but it doesnt work (i dont have access to the owners manaul back home).

It wont be fun spending so much money on this car only to realise i cannot have the option of pressing the fun button (VSC and TC off period) when i am in the mood or given the choice to do so at a racing track, an autocross.

The only other logic i can think off why the car may warrant VSC in the background is to compliment the Torsen diff to provide some "preload" on to the diff to mimic a clutch pack lsd (reason being a Torsen needs some braking for it to provide a mediocre amount of "locking" to my understand). Once a Torsen is spinning a wheel it wont work at all.

What say you guys?
Appreciate your opinions.
Btw appreciate if there's no off topics why we should not turn these Electronic Nannies off as this is solely for track, drag, drift applications held in a sanctioned area.
Cheers.:thanks:

Press and hold TC and VSC at the same time.

Welcome to the forum! Let us know what you thought of the car if you have driven it any distance. Only a few here have driven it more than a few feet, so not much first hand knowledge in the membership yet.
On your question - I am certain I have read in reviews that it can all (VSC and TC) be switched off; search this forum for the BRZ owner's manual - there is an online version (there used to be a downloadable one but I think that link is broken).

HKS driver, Taniguchi have already commented that FR-S/BRZ doesn't fully turn off VSC or TC. iirc HKS had to pull the fuse to fully turn off the VSC & TC... but there's prob w pulling the fuse. When you do pull the fuse, it'll turn off the ABS also.

So if you wanna do full drifting, pull the fuse. Cuz VSC, TC, or ABS is necessary in drifting

I'm confused. Full Off is supposed to be a selectable mode...it would be a bit annoying if you have to pull a fuse.

"If the vehicle gets stuck in mud, dirt or snow, the TRAC system may
reduce power from the engine to the wheels. Pressing to turn
the system off may make it easier for you to rock the vehicle in order to free it.
To turn the TRAC system off, quickly press and release the button.
The Traction Control System OFF indicator light will come on.
Press the button again to turn the system back on."

"Turning off both TRAC and Vehicle stability control (VSC) systems:
To turn the TRAC and Vehicle stability control (VSC) systems off, press and
hold for more than 3 seconds while the vehicle is stopped.
The Traction Control System OFF indicator light and the Vehicle stability control (VSC) off indicator light will come on.
Press the button again to turn the systems back on."

Interesting for when the fuse blows on it's own. :P

Thanks for the rousing welcome.
Yes i tried that link but it seems broken.
Does anyone by chance still have a soft copy of the owners manual?
Would appreciate if anyone could email it to me.

I know it's too new for ppl to experience what i've been through. So looks like i've to wait a bit longer for feedback.

Oh so i'm supposed to press and hold both the TC and VSC button to completely disengage the systems?

Darn i got to try that if given the opportunity again.

I just followed what the Subaru people mentioned, where in order to turn off the system complete was just told to press and hold the TC button only (obviously now i know it doesnt work as the TC will revert back to normal once Mr. Toyoda things i'm being too naughty).


TC/ VSC stuff aside i gotta say it's pretty awsome car but unfortunately i never got to experience the car pass 2nd gear as i only got to play with it in a small little carpark cordoned off for me to hoon around by Subaru.

What really won me was that the car felt really spacious on the driver's seat (having driven Supras and Silvia) they feel pretty cramp considering they are quite lengthy.

The car perceives/feels/looks small but i would like to try parking a BRZ besides a Supra coz in reality i reckon they are probably the same size.

Only down side based on my 1st impression.....
Not enough power to smoke the rear wheels period.
Chassis is too good and underpowered.
It needs a turbocharged STi engine.
better still a Lexus ISF engine.
It needs a tigher LSD.

I would love to try a manual version as the auto gives me the impression that the gearing is just way too tall. 1st gear was good for 65kph if i recall.

Surprisingly i saw someone sporting a Subaru BRZ on STI Spec C RA-r brakes and running some sort of 19inch Ray Engineering Rims.
Was surprised the arches could clear 235/35 R19s front and 265/35 R19s rear.
However i doubt the handling would be the same and probably understeer like a pig but it really does look good on the car (somehow the newer cars these days needs +2 rim size up in the looks department).

Ok enough rambling for the day.

I thought VSC had 3 modes: on, sport, and off.

Does VSC do anything during a straight line "burnout"? I thought it was more for keeping the car from rotating (drifting). Now if you're doing a power slide with VSC on, I can see it stepping in.

How were all those drifting videos made with this car?

As for power to smoke the tires - my 133hp Miata will spin them with ease with a 3k rpm launch if I'm too aggressive with the clutch pedal release. I don't see this car having any problem turning 215's into smoke - just don't expect Hollywood type burnout effects (throw down some bleach if that's your thing).

If that's the case i really share the same sentiment as i spent litlerally the whole day hooning around doing figure of 8 (or doing pretzels) and doing donuts.

Stupid TC will revert back to normal.

Let me see if I can find the vid

K, after the first lap, Taniguchi went back to pit complaining to them about TC & VSC.
On 1-on-1 talk & bout 8mins into it, he explain that he can't fully turn off the TC & VSC... but he said that it's not 100% yet...
[u2b]I38_sv88t4Q[/u2b]

I just tried to get the manual from the google doc, and it worked for me. You can try here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4181

According to the manual (p. 215), TC would be reactivated if only TC was off and the car went >31mph (50km/h). However, if both TC and VSC were off, the reactivation would not happen.

To turn both the TC and VSC off, hold the TC button > 3 sec while the car is fully stopped.

Thanks for the link and appreicate it...
That was the same link i tried before and it didn't work.

"To turn both the TC and VSC off, hold the TC button > 3 sec while the car is fully stopped"

Yup tried exactly as the above as instructed by the Subaru people. Unfortunately in reality it still feels that the VSC is working partially in the background and the TC did reactivate in an extreme situation/ drift angle/ or being naughty with the hand brake.

But not to worry. If that's the case what can i do.
If i can get more feed back from others on real life experience that would help me decide if the car is really worth considering.

^ This claim is worth checking out, but no other tester has reported this issue and we have all seen some massive drifting in the videos from tests in the hands of people like Chris Harris... Toyota may have liability concerns that led them to prevent full turnoff though.

BabyGodzillaGTi-R, if the car does not have enough power to spin the wheels then why do you want a tighter LSD? A tighter LSD will increase understeer.

My BMW has an open diff which is perfect for my car that has about 160HP (or maybe less) since it can't spin the wheels anyways.

Oh sorry i forgotten to add to the wish list.
A nice V8 from the Lexus ISF or a Cosworth built 2.5litre crate motor with a GT35 size turbo remote mounted.

But like i said it's a wish list. As a road car and after coming back to reality the car is pretty good as it is.
It might not be the fastest in a straight line nor does it give out that signature flat four sound (sounds really sterile) but i think it's a good all rounder as a street car similar along the lines of an MX5 and RX8.
Just my 2 cents opinion.

Was driving an E90 325i for awhile and being greedy i like the idea of a clutch pack lsd as its not fun being an idiot behind the wheel with an open diff when it slides well on left corners but its pretty hard to slide it on right corners where the rear inside wheel keeps lighting up.



I'm not surprised if manufactures setup their cars these days due to liability concerns.

We wouldn't want another Toyota Prius saga where this time round because Toyota/Subaru did not state in the owners manaul and on the sun blinds that this car is a RWD and the chances of crashing is probable if one decides to imitate our drift idols and yet doesnt have the skills to do so.......... hypothetical nonsense.

The Toybaru is good but just driven like imbeciles like myself and the rest of us, we certainly wouldn't want a modern day Ralph Nader popping up and saying that the car is not suitable for the general public coz it looks and sounds and will drift like a drift car.... pardon for the lame ramblings.


Coming back to the TC and VSC experiences, i searched up on youtube for ken gushi's onboard video and yes i do notice on the dash meters the ESP amber light keeps flickering while he's having fun.

Same experiences that i face. However i can't see if the TC lights does turn off.

Bottom line the car can be fun to drive while still having the safety nannies working in the background and slightly intervening at silly angles when we press and hold the TC Off button for the "Faux TC Off and VSC Off".

I'm sure Chris Harris and Ken Gushi's videos speak volumes. But its just nice to have a proper Off button for all when warranted.

What it is exactly that you feel that makes you think it is VSC working? Could it be something benign like EBD changing brake system pressures based on g-forces? In recent Subies pulling the fuse on electronic also meant disabling EBD, which is a pretty bad idea, so I would hold off on pulling the fuse until we have a look at the wiring to figure out which fuse to pull.

My hypothesis of the VSC is kicking in (this is with VSC and TC Off mode) is because while trying to initiate a slide (i wont use the word drift as i'm a mere mortal), via a heavy right foot with the steering wheel pointing to where i want to go, the ESP amber lights kicks in once i'm geting a bit of drift angle and countersteering.

And once that happens while my foot is still on full throttle, it feels like the engine management is cutting power (like the ignition is being slightly retarded) and the brakes being applied slightly as the car is getting some nice drift angle and once it reaches a certain treshold it feels slight the speed is ever so slightly being reigned in.

I presume the brakes are working coz u get that placebo feeling of the brakes making pulsating noises (just a bit) when getting some nice slide angles.

Bottom line i need more time in the car to really find the limit as i'm only limited to hooning around a cordoned off car park..

Just sharing my 1st impression experiences...

According to the manual shouldn't the traction control and VSC light already be on when you turn the system off?

Were you completely stopped when turning them both off?

Only asking becuase my Tacoma had a similar problem. (I special ordered by base truck with the Auto LSD which meant it came with VSC and TC). Unless I was fully stopped and the revs were down holding the button did nothing. A few times the lights would go on (to indicate it was off) but then the lights would go away a couple seconds later and it would be on.

However, I never had the problem when fully stopped with the revs at idle.

I suspect its basically the same logic - VSC/TC for most Toyota's - which is the system I thought used in the BRZ.

Yes thats what i did. When at idle, car stationary, press and hold the TC until the TC and VSC off lights came out.

The issue at hand is that the TC reverts back to normal when we tried to get it sideways however the VSC lights is still there.
The thing is the car will still allow it to slide but it feels that the electronic stability programme still intervenes ever so slightly and the VSC amber ligths still flickers anyway. It goes sideways but it will correct the slide out easily while doing figure of 8s/ donuts as it doesnt have the power to begin with plus it is further aggrivated that the VSC feels it's still "assisting/ intervening"....


Anyway can't wait for other's feedback when they get their cars.

If VSC and TC can not be turned completely off I would absolutely consider this a deal breaker.

:barf:

Welcome BabyGodzilla!

With some of the glorious power-slide videos we've seen, it would be surprising to find that stability control cannot be disabled. Journos get early access to cars, but it is far-fetched to think the "handlers" at the early Fuji press days were pulling fuses from the cars. When you had trouble disengaging the systems, did the Subaru reps at the event have any explanation to offer?

PS :D Your username made me think of this little guy...

I'm more interested in the Brake-Override technology that I keep hearing about. Defeating that will be important.

What is that, exactly?

This whole time I've been under the impression the "nannies" could be disabled for proper shenanigans.

Exactly what it sounds like.

So perhaps light left foot braking won't trigger the system, but any appreciably heavy application of both pedals will activate the system.

yeah the brake override system sounds like what nissan has in place on the 350/370z'z.

it doesnt look like it should interfere.. however it is pretty disappointing that it cant be disabled.

more importantly.. its not the first time Toyota has used tc/vsc systems that arent completely able to be turned off. the is250/350 uses a similar system. you have to some combination street fighter type combo of things to get it completely disabled.

that.. is a much bigger deal. and what i would consider a deal breaker from me. i come from an s2000.. the last thing i want is traction/vsc/braking system nannies that i cant disable

I'm not sure they are allowed to make it able to be turned off, as a side effect of the accelerator scandal.
Of course, when driving a manual and having confidence your car won't suddenly get berserk, you'll be saying "WTH, I don't want it, it's in the way!". And you'll be right.

I emailed the local Scion dealer and he states:

"Since 2010, all Toyota’s and Scion’s have the ability to turn VSC and TRAC off by holding the VSC button for at least 5 seconds until TRAC off and VSC off illuminate on the instrumentation panel."

Hoping this is the truth.

Yes it is. It's in the owner's manual.

I wouldn't be surprised if regulations in some countries prohibit complete disengagement of the VSC for any car driven on the street.

I'm not worried about this.

So far I've read dozen's of review by professional drivers and journalists and I have never read any criticism of the "nanny features" making the car less enjoyable. In fact, they've gone the other direction by saying that the pure handling and seemingly invisible electronics make it so excellent.

If you are an aspiring Formula D driver and want to disable these systems.. then go ahead. As for me, I'm fine with a little oversight to keep me from hip checking a telephone pole.

IF it works as the 350z system does, ANY left foot braking will deactivate the throttle.
By light pressure they mean resting your foot on the pedal enough to activate the brake lights.
I Detest this system, but unfortunately understand why they feel the need to include it. Software is the only way to deactivate the 350 system

Thanks for the compliments. That is the cutest "Gor ghzeei laaa" ive seen. Now where's Ultraman when u need him to save the day? Really puts a smile on my face. But the nickname is actually in reference to my weekend "little monster". I'm sure you can figure out what car is it. Hehe.

As for turning of the VSC, TC thingy, don't get me wrong, i'm sure you can still do the same stuff u see Ken and Chris does on youtube. U probably see the drift angles is because they are using lots of speed and weight transfer to initiate the drift and overcome the side effects on the electronic aids. Bottom line u still can slide it with the electronics still working.

While on the other hand, i'm only mucking around on a car park where u can't even 2nd gear. With so much traction plus and there is not much power going through the autobox and with the electronic aids kicking its abit annoying. (I can't dump the clutch in an auto to over come the lack of power hehehe).

Like i said again, when u follow the instructions as per the manuals to turn everything off, it feels like the electronic aids treshold/ activeness is lowerd to 20% of it's abilities.

Being a road car i reckon it's only fair for the manufactures to setup the car like that.

My other logic for the electronic aids to be partially active in the background to help trick the torsen rear diff to mimic a clutch pack lsd.

If u guys are familiar with torsen diffs, they don't work if one of the wheels are spinning too much compared to the other (or when 1 wheel is in the air).

All i can say is the FT86 is a pretty good street car that still allows u to have fun.
But if u want to go further than the streets, unfortunately one still needs a dedicated setup up car to get the best out of it.

My 2 cents.

Its the truth in theory and as per manuals.


But my concern and feedback is the VSC and TC is still there working in the back ground. I still find that Continental cars setup their ESP systemes better (as in more fun to drive b4 they intervene drastically) than the Japs.

Re: Brake override

If brake override is there, how can we heel-toe?

I'm fairly sure that I heard heel-toe throttle blipping in some of the videos.

I reckon the Brake Overide System shouldn't be an issue.
As long as one doesn't ride on the brakes for too long it wont intervene (i'm thinking of counting one thousand and one mentally).

I reckon most modern car have them and in the normal course of driving an automatic while left foot braking, so far i've not encountered the ecus completely cutting the power while on a spirited drive in a Peugeot 308 Turbo.

While mucking around with the BRZ through slaloms which we setup, didn't realise the ecus intervening at all while LFB through the excercise to maintain speed and to help the front to tuck in.

On a side note for those worried about my initial comments about sliding this baby, the handbrakes are pretty good hehehehe.
I will leave the rest to your imaginations.

For the record i'm a self confessed cyber racer and keyboard warrior.
hehe Cheers.

Brake Override System may be a North American thing, I'm not entirely sure. I wouldn't think that it would defeatable either (through user input anyway), given it's a safety feature like ABS or EBFD. Actually, I don't know if EBFD is defeatable or not, that's a good question.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMN-WEWM5IE&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Disable TRC and VSC in Lexus IS250 - YouTube[/ame]

That's the full procedure for turning off vsc in an is250/350. Same style vsc/tc system.. It's probably the same system you can "disable" it completely by holding the trac light for over 3 seconds... But, it's not fully disabled. The rx-8 also uses a similar system.

It it's anything like the rx-8 system, it re-engages once abs gets active.

I too, would like to know. I'm surprised there hasn't been more concern about this. Not being able to heel toe would absolutely be a deal breaker for me, in addition to not being able to fully disable TC/VSC.

aren't most of the journalists praising the fact this this car allows the driver to fully disengage VSC/TC? i remember watching a video of one of the reviewers mentioning the freedom to do so