Limited Slip Blog review
 

I haven't seen this review posted, so, I thought I would share:

http://limitedslipblog.com/2013/09/13/2013-scion-frs/

And this post seems to be connected to the review:

http://limitedslipblog.com/2013/09/1...s-progression/

Good review. Reminds me of the video by Chris Harris where he compares the GT86, Cayman, and 370z. He raised many of the same points.

This pretty much sums up what the vast majority of complaints are on the forums about our cars.

It's a first-gen, all-new sports coupe that is a starter car (i.e. influx of young people with no car experience), and it's not a "true enthusiast car" as evidenced by some of the quality issues and subpar specs in some areas (tires, brakes for track use, etc).

-alex

Totally agree.

I wouldn't agree that the twins are solely starter cars. There are many here who have owned semi- and full exotics, higher powered, some lighter, most heavier, almost all more expensive, but have come full circle to appreciate what makes a good GT car great.

I can't count the current and former Corvette, 'Stang, BMW, Lexus, Porsche, NSX, Lotus and other owners who prefer their twin over any of the others.

It's something like what boat owners experience going up and then down the waterline length after realizing that bigger isn't necessarily better.

Otherwise, good review, thanks for posting.

Just to be devil's advocate, why can't it be both a starter car and an enthusiast's car?

An enthusiast's starter car if you will. At least that is what I took away from reading both articles.

Obviously, there are a lot of places in our cars that leaves something to be desired and improved upon, but, our cars have a lot of the core elements that imho make for a lot of attainable fun.
:burnrubber:

So, a back to basics approach perhaps? Going back to one's roots of what they like most about driving.

As the article mentioned .... most drivers can explore the limits of the car somewhat safely (i.e. low speeds). The car allows novice drivers an idea of what a neutral slide feels like and how you can control the car. This is all accomplished at relatively slow speeds. Yes ... a starter car. The problem is that over time .... most enthusiast drivers will want MORE. MORE power, MORE grip, MORE speed. This is only natural. There is obviously a ceiling regarding too much of anything. Start with the FRS. Then either mod the FRS or move up to the Cayman S.

It can be, that's what the aftermarket is for.

As-is, to qualify the car as an outright sports car is absurd, given the low power output and the need to upgrade the car for it to see extended driving (tires, brakes, and oil are three standout areas).

I just see all the problems on the forums about these cars having problems, when in reality I think it's a matter of product positioning and market reaction to said positioning.

-alex

According to that definition, there'd be no outright sports cars on the market. Every car needs to have some parts upgraded for extended track use, whether it's tires, brakes, oil cooler, suspension, etc.

You're conflating sports car with race car.

It's the light weight chassis dynamics that got me on the first test drive. I've owned lighter cars including a Lotus 7 and MR Spyder (and am currently hunting for an Exige S), but none had the combination able to give such a satisfying all-weather driving experience. Plus the Limited/10 Series owners have pretty posh surroundings for a budget GT, beyond what I'd call basic but yes, it's the purity of the 86 driving experience that I haven't felt in any other contemporary car, including Cayman S.

I notice you drive a Camry. So, WTF are you talking about?

100% agree. Plus, if you want a Porche, and can afford it, get one. Don't complain that this car isn't the quality of cars that costs at least $20K more for the same driving dynamics.

The majority of the complaints I have ever seen about the FR-S/BR-Z are specifically about "Why doesn't it have $10-$20K more stuff on it? That's ridiculous! It shouldn't have these parts it should have the more expensive parts!" which goes against the purpose of this vehicle.

I've read so much content on the net about this car, and the primary gripe that I've seen is lack of power. I find it rather amusing. So many people care about stock hp/tq numbers... but, the type of people that are concerned with hp/tq... don't they plan on modding their cars anyway?

I think the twins are a fantastic platform to mod from. 200 hp/151 tq isn't bad at all coming out of an N/A 2.0L engine IMO. Regardless, the low weight/CoG and good balance is something you can't easily mod/change. I'd rather have a great Chassis and great looking car, than a boxy car that looks ugly but has more stock hp/tq.

There are also cars out there that come specifically detuned from the factory, like the 2003/2004 Ford Cobra (Termi). I know that is a more radical example, but still... I don't understand why so many people are focusing on the stock numbers rather than the mod potential.

From all that I've read about our cars so far, it seems like engine in the twins has alot of modding potential.

Did anyone purchase an FRS/BRZ without the intent of modding, and expected it to be fast?

I guess I don't understand what all of the complaints are about... This car was designed to appeal to the "tuner" market, was it not?

EDIT: Also, I didn't purchase this car strictly to buy a "sports" car. I bought this car because it was basically an upgraded version of the 7th Gen Celica... great gas mileage for a DD, while looking great and offering a fun driving experience. Although... now that I have the car, I do eventually plan on turning this into a track car while still maintaining it as a DD (most likely by utilizing an Open Flash or something where I can toggle between ECU maps).

It's weird, but, I never modified a car before this one and didn't plan on it; however, I have the bug now. I loved the car as soon as I test drove it. Is the car slow - no. Is the car fast - depends on your car experience. I bought the car for its driving dynamics because it feels like an extension of myself. Anyone that owns one will eventually gain enough experience to want more power, but, you shouldn't be surprised about the car's powerband if you test drove it.

So its not a real sports car unless it has brake pads that can handle track days?

I can't take this forum anymore, its new bullshit everyday for this car.

I have never found the brakes to be lacking and I would definitely have different brakes for track days. I firmly believe that it is a real sports car because that is why I bought it.

I completely disagree with BOTH articles. The FR-S is NOT a starters sports car. I have owned multiple 500+hp Corvette's and I do not feel out of place one bit in the FR-S. It was not built as a straight line performance car. And just because the FR-S cost 25,000 does not make it a starter car. It is a fantastic driving car REGARDLESS of the price. It drives better than cars costing 3 times as much. And the Cayman has that God awful shape that resembles a 911. Horrible. As far as the Porsche being a dream car, I don't think so. Dream cars are named Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, etc. Actually the FR-S looks more "exotic" than the Cayman. Did I make my point?
:happy0180:

a low powered rwd, neutral feeling car is a great beginners car, that can even excite experienced drivers just because of how easy you can throw the car around.

There is definitely a variety of reasons why people have come to the FR-S. There is obviously a certain percentage that this is a beginner's enthusiast car and there are others that have sampled a variety of platforms and have realised that the FR-S is simply a great drivers car. To quote a car reviewer, "this car is such a willing playful thing.". I think calling a Porsche an exotic might be somewhat of a stretch, but, it is definitely a sports car worth aspiring to. For me, I would prefer a 911 Turbo S, but a Cayman is considerably more affordable.

As with many of these arguments, it depends on how you define the term being argued over. I choose to define "starter sports car" as "a sports car accessible to someone with limited resources and experience that leaves the owner prepared for more demanding vehicles." (I'll let someone else define "sports car".) A low price is requisite under this definition but not sufficient to make it good.

A $20k sports car that leaves novice owners embedded in trees would not make a good starter car. A $20k sports car that acts like its price won't train the user how to properly handle a performance platform. Fundamentally, a good "starter sports car" will have to be an at least passable sports car and, as everyone points out, the twins are very good sports cars. Possibly the only feature of the 86 which is at odds between "good sports car" and "good starter sports car" is the lack of excess power. It helps keep newbies (like myself) out of trouble but I can understand how some drivers can find it limiting.

Just because something's good for (or even designed for) amateurs doesn't make it inadequate for serious users.

Yes, what the fuck am I talking about? Didn't know you have to own a FRS/BRZ to be qualified to talk about these things on internet forums.

But to each their own.

-alex

I think you misunderstand what I was getting at...

The tidbit about track use/spirited driving was in reference to the weak points on our cars. If you got a more "pure" sports car, the weak points aren't so glaring. A 350Z track edition comes to mind.

There will always be a trade-off for what we get with our cars, the FRS/BRZ is a good starting point for someone wanting to get a sports car without breaking the bank, or someone else looking for a car that can get a lot more performance and bang for the buck with a few minor mods (i.e. most of us, myself included).

That's all I was getting at.

-alex

As what some have already said, it all depends on what we consider the definition of a sports car.

Thanks for the clarification. Obviously there was a little misperception going on with the words that you chose. I for one read your other posts as that our cars are: a) not sports cars and b) not enthusiast cars. There are many here that would disagree with those points. Certainly, we don't know your history of cars to judge, but, it is a natural reaction to see simply the guy that drives an appliance is judging whether the FR-S is a sports car..........certainly one does not need to own an FR-S to make for a qualified opinion, but, it doesn't hurt either.

A 350z track edition is not that different in my mind. Anyone who plans to use it for extended periods at the track will upgrade the brake pads and fluid, and would probably be wise to invest in an oil cooler. It's not really a track-ready car, despite the marketing.

Brake pads, fluid, and oil cooler are the same three upgrades you'd want on the Twins. Probably tires as well so that's one additional item, but the RE040's on the 350z aren't really track tires either, so you'd probably want to replace them at some point anyway. The big difference to me is that the Twins are nearly 500 lbs. lighter and you'll feel that mass in every turn on the track.

I think you might be saying cars like the 350z track are incrementally more track-ready than the Twins, but I think that's arguable both ways and certainly the difference in either direction isn't great enough to say one is clearly a sports car and the other not based on that. Just my 2c.

Right. I'm old school and only consider two-seat roadsters sports cars. I like the way Toyota labels these GT's worldwide except for North America.

Personally, I like what Nino Karotta called our cars in his video review of the GT86. The GT86 is more of a "Tiny Tourismo".

If you haven't seen the video, it has great production values and can be found on both YouTube and Vimeo.

"You really have to be an aggressive idiot", hehe, (which I plan on doing at the next Porsche Club auto-x next month).

Magnificent production I hadn't seen, well worth 21 minutes of everyone's time who hasn't seen it. Thanks for the tip.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYrvhkIivgA"]Epic Scion FR-S, Toyota GT86 test drive: racetrack, drift & cross-continental dash - HD - YouTube[/ame]


I think I'll go out to the garage to admire my car now.