8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list
 

Interesting. The company (well, Scion) is down 2%. Wonder how much longer it's going to hold on? I wonder if the 2015 will be a "Toyota FRS" like so many have predicted on these forums. The FRS may very well be Scion's Swan Song.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/8-car-...99.html?page=3

It's so weird to me to see non-enthusiast consumers' trends and reasons why or why not they have interest in certain cars.

Agreed.

The FRS is here to stay IMHO. Not too sure about Scion, though

I feel the same way. My car is already rebadged as a Toyota, so that should be a good indication about how concerned I am whether Scion survives or not.

I never had any interest in the Scion brand before the FR-S. Let's face it - the FR-S is an anomaly in their lineup, a RWD sports car in the middle of a roster full of low-end "hip" FWD commuter cars. The FR-S is great, but it can't save the brand.

There won't be any tears from me. Like others, before the FR-S I had zero interest in anything Scion had to offer. I don't like their other cars. I don't like their brand image. I'd rather have a Kia if I was going the young-hip branding route (Soul looks better than the xB, Optima looks nicer than the tC). Scion is near the bottom of my "brand list."

The Toyota brand in the US market means ultimate reliability and initial quality, their entire business model is built on that. People who buy Toyotas want no fuss and many expect 200k+ trouble-free miles.

The FR-S single handedly trashed Scion's JD power ratings, sent Scion to last place. This car has had so many dealer visits that corporate requires a photo-documented report approval prior to any non TSB warranty work, unheard of with a Toyota who's brand produce the most trouble-free powertrains available domestically.

I would be surprised if Toyota puts their name on this car in the US. More likely they will wrap up the joint venture in the Scion write-off and the BRZ will remain. They are even poised to sell Scion distribution to the ever growing SOA (basically selling dealerships.)

Then Subaru can do their own thing and drop their Toyota-free FA20T in the BRZ without much of a price increase. Which is good for us.

Scion is Toyota's Saturn. FR-S is a bit like Scion's Sky.

As always the above is pure speculation, :scared0016:

If Scion is failing it kinda blows my mind how Toyota does so well in the first place. NONE of the cars from the entire brand look/feel/perform that great except for the FR-S and maybe the Tundra, the new tC was getting there as long as you smoked the tails. But seriously...what about the Camry sells this brand so well?

I quote myself...

Non-enthusiasts are a strange breed from my perspective, and clearly I'm not the only one that feels this way. I've never understood how wrastlin' fans pick their favorite wrastler, how rap fans determine what's a good rap song and what isn't, and how people that don't care or know anything about cars pick from the huge amount of choices out there. Likewise, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that are puzzled at how I pick my favorite BMX rider, how I determine what's a good death metal song and not, and why in the world I think tossing my comfy FR-S seat for an unpadded carbon fiber one is a spectacular idea.

Different strokes, as we all know, but shit still seems bazaar sometimes.

I know you are speculating but you brought up a good point that made me go hmmmm. So the 86s sold around the world under the Toyota brand are mechanically built better than the FR-S?

I taught it was the same car just with different, some might say better, looking visuals. Headlights, climate controls, push to start and so forth.

My parents and sister are a great example. Toyota owners. Camry, RAV4, Corolla. Because in the 10+ years of Toyota ownership (2 Camrys, 2 RAV4s, 2 Corollas), not one of them has ever had a major non-warrantied expense for repairs. For them, driving is a chore and that's it. For us, driving can be pleasurable, and that's what makes a Toyota so appealing to most people.

Quoted from article; I don't understand this statement. The FR-S is Scion's best selling car - over 25k units a year. Did they expect it to sell more? Seems like a huge sales success IMO.

Oh wait, they meant they thought the FR-S would boost the entire line's image. Well that's just dumb.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html

????

Yahoo Finance sounds like an oxymoron.

Scion sales have never before reached these levels.

The FRS has added about 1/3 to the brand's sales.

In Canada the scion brand is sold out of Toyota dealerships.

No the quality is the same.

The American market is different. Toyotas reputation here is a trouble free appliance. Buy one, change the oil, trade it in at 120k miles or the smarter buyers change the plugs and keep going and going, many Toyotas in half a million miles clubs.

Trouble-free appliance auto is sort of an enthusiast segment in a way, how far can I drive thing for as little maintenance and hassle as absolutely possible?

Many enthusiasts get sick of working on cars and end up in this category as they age. I just don't think Toyota will risk their brand here with a Subaru level vehicle. Abroad is different.

And yet Consumer Reports still picked the FR-S and BRZ as the top sports car pick in 2013...

The FR-S and BRZ continue to sell like hotcakes...

Toyota sells that many Corollas in a month. The could sell the rights of this car to Subaru and not lose a penny or blink an eye.

It was supposed to help their image, I am sure they are debating what it is doing to their image and many of Tada's decisions every week in corp meetings.

For the love of God, please sell your FR-S and buy a Camry!!!

Sooo true.

It's funny how my car choices evolved when the new job was impending. I had a budget of around $25k. I wanted something smaller and more fuel efficient than my old Sable. First, I looked at a fully-loaded Sentra. Granted, they're a great commuter car. All the amenities you could want in a car you drive too and from work, and fairly fine for road trips. But there's no fun. At all. The CVT drones, and you get more of the same noise the faster you go. So, I considered its closest competitor, the Civic. Bit more fun, more tech, and a manual is totally an option. Meh. The tC was a close as well, and a 10-series tC wasn't too bad and fit the budget.

Then a buddy of mine chimed in and said "BRZ/FR-S LOL". I had forgotten (*gasp*) about the car. Spent a whole month looking over it, and the only thing it didn't offer me was passenger space. Paid a bit above the budget, got a good financing plan, and drove off the lot with my baby. Been grinning ever-since.

If I wasn't a car enthusiast, I would have probably stopped at the Sentra. It was the *most* sensible out of the bunch. Best gas mileage, most comfort (leather breathes, yo, and it wasn't black), and best value in those regards. Plus, I get a factory discount (yay Nissan partnerships). But... man. I couldn't settle on it.

Yahoo Finance needs to do better analysis.

Sales are the highest since 2009.. FR-S has everything to do with that.

What? In your own link the 3rd chart down proves that false. Scion's 2012 sales were less than half of what they were in the mid to late 2000's. 2012's sales were up about 25k over 2011, and the FR-S is pretty much responsible for that bump. Otherwise the line up is dying. Take away the FR-S and Scion as a brand is down to 30% of the output they previously were.

I wouldn't drive a Camry if it was given to me. I love my FRS but there are tough realities this car faces. It really fits the Subaru market better than a Toyota market. and with Scion its Saturn Sky deja vu .

I don't see Toyota getting rid of Scion completely, but I do see them scaling them back to about half the dealerships they have now.

Scion still attracts the youngest demographic of any car manufacturer. Something Toyota desperately needs, but clearly Scion needs to improve their lineup. Outside of the FR-S (and maybe the TC) they have nada.

Here's my idea...

Scion FR-S - Keep
Scion TC - Do away
Scion XB - Do away
Scion XD - Do away
Scion IQ - Do away
Scion MR2 - Add
Scion Supra - Add
Scion Someotherlegitimatesportscar - Add

Obviously people are starving for affordable actual-sports cars. Just a thought...

It's not difficult to make that statement when they've already announced doing just that.:lol:

Yeah they should make Scion a full line up of sports cars. Like Porsche (pre VW involvement) just less expensive :thumbup:

baby FR-S
FR-S
supercharged FR-S
RWD sedan based off FR-S platform
Supra (or cheaper version of Supra if it's branded Toyota)
RWD sedan based off Supra

cha-ching!

Saturn closed doors at a volume around 200k per year, the Scion brand has to be losing money. A single typical USA auto plant cranks out 250k cars a year to put into perspective how low Scion's volumes are.

Yep.

Toyota: reliable family cars
Lexus: reliable luxury cars
Scion: BADASS SHIT

Most of your statements are BS. The FT86 has received nothing but praise across the globe. Toyota desperately needed to inject passion and enthusiasm back in their lineup and Tada completely pulled it off with the FT86. Your snide remarks about him are tiring, ridiculous, and unfounded. Sales are as strong as ever for these cars and, as I mentioned, Consumer Reports rates it a top pick and they certainly consider reliability when making those selections.

90% of the things you have to say about this car are condescending and negative. You need to sell it. You clearly don't love your car. The reality, for me, is that it has been a rock since the day I drove it off the lot. It is everything I expected it to be and, if your main priority was a bullet proof car you probably should not have bought the first model year of a brand new platform.

It is just a car. If it makes you this bitter sell it and get something different.

Yahoo finance.. Now there's an authoritative source on car companies..
Sales and percentages fluctuate all the time.. It takes a desperate columnist to come up with something sensational to print.. The FRS has been scions biggest seller for the brand.. I'm sure many at Toyota view it as a complete success.. It all depends on how you look at it.. I think Toyota succeeded in making a brand that delivers entry level cars at value pricing.. It removed the stigma that people had associating boring appliance like cars with its brand..

I think this is a smart idea.

Bitter has nothing to do with it, you calling less than <40k cars sold a success is way premature. This car has a long way to go before it can be called a success. It is a tiny volume of Toyotas total sales. Even Honda couldn't support the S2k, they admitted to losing money on every sale. I seriously doubt the FRS is profitable.

Sales will have to at least double for Scion to have any chance of surviving. Its just the reality of the auto industry.

No way I am selling my car so get over that, there's nothing like it for $25k. But I don't drink the cool-aide, the hand writing is on the wall for Scion. I have nothing against the Scion brand but this is just painfully obvious business reality.

The car has a much better chance for survival by branding it what it is : A Subaru. Toyota is holding the car back with Tada not allowing Subaru to drop in their FA20T and I would hate to see the slow sports car image slowly kill off the car.

Its going to be a win-win for anyone who likes these cars when Scion is written off and Subaru takes full ownership of the car, I don't know why you are so defensive.

im pretty sure toyota will rehaul before they get rid of a brand completely... especially after the announcement of all these new scion cars...

Not that I totally disagree with you, but by which metric would you say a new affordable sports car is a success? The original Mustang sold 1 million units in it's first 18 months. Is that your measuring stick?

30k combined units (FRS & BRZ) in its first year in the US is a sales success to me. That's more than double what the S2000 ever sold. It's also way more than any other sports car I can think of except the Corvette, Camaro or Mustang (calling the last 2 sports cars is pushing it too).

[quote]The volume argument is ridiculous. This car was never meant to sell more than 20-25K vehicles per year in the US (combined FR-S/BRZ sales). This car was never about selling 100K cars a year in North America. As I mentioned the whole point of the car was to inject more passion, youth, and enthusiasm back in the lineup. The praise and recognition the car has received for Toyota, Tada, and Subaru is worth more than you realize. Toyota surely knows this as it appears they are moving forward to have two more sports cars enter the lineup. So yes, it is a success whether you like it or not, otherwise Toyota would be pulling the plug on the FT86, and would not be moving forward with introducing more sports cars.

The FT86 platform is selling far more cars than the S2K ever did in a single year. They are priced differently. Many of the parts are off the shelf. I suspect that are making money on the car, that said, even if they broke even it would be a success for the reasons stated above.

That won't happen unless Toyota does something about the lineup. I don't think the Scion brand is a problem, the problem is their car lineup. Outside of the FR-S and TC, it is horrible. If Toyota wants to save the brand they can. If they want it to wilt away and die they can do that to.

None of this makes sense. The Toyota or Scion brand is not holding the car back. Sales in year two are better than ever. I don't think branding the car 100% Subaru would change that, and it would never happen due to the investment Toyota made and the praise and recognition they continue to receive for the car.

More power has all been but confirmed and I am sure it has been part of the plan all along. Once the competition heats up in the next year or two and sales peak, you will see Toyota and Subaru counter with more power.

In the meantime, there is the aftermarket for those that cannot wait.

Sales of the FR-S and BRZ have met/exceeded Toyota and Subaru's expectations for the first year. It is already more successful than they had hoped.

There's a reason Tada has been asked to lead the new Supra project, and it's not because the FR-S/BRZ have been financial failures.

If Subaru and Toyota wanted to sell 50K FT86's a year in the US they easily could. They would just build more and then offer incentives to buyers if they started sitting on the lot.

Clearly that is not their plan. They are selling these cars almost as fast as they can make them right now. Pretty good problem to have unless you are regal....

I said its too early to call it a success. Look at any new sports car and the first two years are stronger then they drop like a rock then the car is killed, pretty much what happened to the last Toyota sports car. The only affordable small rwd sports car that has been a success is the Miata. All the others couldn't maintain profitability which is why companies design and build cars: to make money.

Not only that if the FT86 was a failure for Toyota they certainly would not be looking at more engine options and be discussing the next generation.

If the car was a failure as claimed Toyota would pull the plug and would never move forward with improvements and a next generation of the car.

Someone is letting their bitterness of the car cloud their judgement.

LOL, have you looked at Miata sales over the last 10 years.. That is North America alone.

Mazda has not sold more than 10K Miatas in a single year since 2008 in NA...

Globally? The FT86 is probably outselling it 4:1 right now easy.

No someone is making a leap of faith based on commentary by a young designer who gives a good sales pitch. There are no guarantees, cars come and go. None of us know what will happen, but certainly neither Toyota or Subaru are selling dividends from the "success" of this car. I hope this car is the next Miata but it has a long way to go and the Scion brand issues are an obstacle. To not see that is some sort of denial.