BRZ vs 370z Video
 

[u2b]POPiUCtytqc[/u2b]

:D yay

Remarkable effort.

Would've been better if it were the same driver and on the same day to reduce variables. Nevertheless it's a solid effort! Can't wait to take one of them out for a test drive!

Different driver, and the Z wasn't stock. I think same driver, stock-for-stock would show the BRZ out on top. The Z doesn't get a chance to use it's HP advantage on this course; gymkhana is the great equalizer for chassis setup.

Ya that was a good showing and a great video. I just wish both cars were stock.

Seems like the BRZ was ahead for the first 1/3 then in the power sections fell a little behind, then was equal in handling for a little, then the 370z pulled ahead at the end again.

I agree, I wish both were stock but hey you take what you can get!

It looked like the driver lost focus about 1/3 way through, then the Z caught up. BRZ was definitely ahead in the beginning.

It's interesting that they both start at the same time but the BRZ is first to get to the first cone, which would suggest the BRZ has better acceleration. But you can tell through the rest of the video the 370Z is able to accelerate much faster away from the pivot cones which is why it catches up and wins. Maybe it was just a bad launch by the 370Z. BRZ is definitely a momentum car, once he loses his speed around that first pivot cone the 370Z walks away with it.

different drivers, Z not stock. cannot compare the two this way.

The BRZ definitly looks more nimble and seeing as weighs 500-600lbs less than the Z it should be. The Z is at a serious disadvantage here and that just goes to show you how good that chassis is.

IF that BRZ had some more power it would have won easily. Take this onto a track on the other hand and the Z wins every time.

BRZ had less body roll and nose dive.

1 sec difference is impressive.

The BRZ was 100% stock and on stock tires. The 370Z was purpose-built and likely on much better rubber.

Also, don't forget the 370Z driver probably has been driving his car for years. The BRZ driver could only have been driving it for months at most. And not many gymkhanas either.

How do we know that the Z isn't stock other than the wheels?

The video stated it was Gymkhana Spec. I'm pretty sure that's not a trim level in Japan. And looking at the ride height and how it behaves in the corners makes me think it does not have a stock suspension.

Does the BRZ get disqualified for hitting a cone though? LOL

what exactly is gymkhana spec?

my guess is tighter suspension, different tires...

This exactly. +1

A "blank canvas" stock car was only 1 second slower than a purpose built car. Pretty impressive I'll say

i think purpose built might be a little extreme. we have no idea what is going on with this car. and this is a course where power is basically out of the equation. one second is kinda big on a 70 second course. im not saying that its a bad thing for the frs but i dont see this as a huge win either

I mean purpose bulit by the fact that this car was suspension tuned and maybe other things vs a car that just came out and is completley stock. I see it as a WIN in my book imo

i missed the part where it said it was suspension tuned. what did they do to it?

Anytime there are spins involved, I don't take much credibility to the times.

Well PN2 seems to be a class like saying Formula Drift out of drifting. These cars aren't even in the same class due to engine displacements.

A car with "PN2 Spec" is like saying a "Formula D spec" car vs a stock car. We know that FD spec car has mods. Now about this race, we can assume the 370z is indeed modded, especially what the race is about, precision and control of the car, so suspension would be number 1 priority on buliding a car for that type of event.

Plus, you and I know about that 370z barley having any body roll in the video. lol

My .02 :D

Or I may be wrong and the car just has stickers and claim its a different spec lol

i want to know which tires both cars were on

it looks like the brz is super slow under low rpms. :/ Sad panda.

Hate to say this as a fellow 370Z owner, but the Z looks like having some heavy ass at the beginning of this video lol

370Z vs. BRZ in Gymkhana
 

http://youtu.be/POPiUCtytqc

The Z wins... but the BRZ is alleged to be bone stock. Be interesting to see a modified FRS/BRZ competing.

win, in terms of handling. i think it loss because of lack of tq,
i think it would be a different story with a bone stock 370

i bet the brz could pick up the second with a set of good race spec tires :D

So...A race between 2 cars with no info on ANYTHING.......with NO constants other than the track, is supposed to display the comparative performance of either of these cars...

Seriously, this is why no one can take magazine comparisons for ANYTHING other than a bunch of Fox news fluff and embellishment.

There is NO factual information given anymore just a bunch of circumstantial intangible opinions that somehow get turned into fact because they've been published..

First...

Who drove the BRZ/FRS?
Who drove the Z?
My guess was the Z driver was an absolute amature behind the wheel of the car, and in a gymkana situation because it wasn't until the last 2-3 corners does ANY effort get put into the 360's
What was done to the Z? was it REALLY setup for gymkana if so why did it have such problems with the 360 turns, it should have been setup with the appropriate brake bias to assist it in those turns.

REALLY what this video should be called is..

"Some guy in his tuner Z with unknown mods Vs stock Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS/Toyota FT86 and a guy who has an idea what's going on"


Not to point fingers at any one individual but

It's stuff like this, that has absolute NO substantiated claims what so ever other than a clip on youtube and it's comments that turn cars from A car, to the most annoying "trend" in the realm of enthusiasm.

+1 The 370's driver is either not very good or got a horrible start. Someone explain to me how the BRZ beat it to the first corner by a full sec?

*shrug* No car's an island either. The fact remains the cars completed the course about a second apart.

If you want to assume the Z was completely stock and driven by an epileptic baboon, feel free. I choose to see a lot of potential in the BRZ. The numbers are right for it, the reviews agree, and my ride in one only reinforced my opinion that the BRZ is an excellently handling car.

The numbers are right for it?

The BRZ does a mid 7 second 0-60..

The 370z is running mid 4 0-60's...

In the initial sprint from start or Zero MPH to the first cone the 7.# second car out paced the 4.# second car by a full second...

This video does anything BUT promote factual representation of proven performance statistics.

And this is what i'm talking about..

"I choose to see a lot of potential in the BRZ" doesn't have to mean "I am completely disillusioned into actually thinking the brz stands a chance in a straight sprint when pitted evenly against a 320HP nissan coupe"

but it quickly does become just that when the video "OMG BRZ TOTALLY HANGS WITH A HIGHLY TUNED 370Z WHEN THE Z WAS TUNED FOR THIS PARTICULAR RACE!!!"

come on..Fox news much?

I'm allll for this car doing well and awesome if it produces numbers that make you say "hey that's not bad for 200hp!!" but to really just be that gullible? That's ridiculous and I can't back that, and seriously if that's what this fanbase is slowly becoming...This is like the Civic kids when the "Civic Vs Viper" video hit the net.

We're not looking at a sprint around an oval track.

The BRZ has a lower CG, smaller polar moment of intertia, and less weight. All are important for this type of racing. Those are the numbers I'm talking about. I don't see how a run to 60mph matters here since they aren't hitting 60. Hell they are probably struggling to go over 40.

But as I said before, take what you want from this video. If you believe it's a complete fabrication because 0-60 times are the only measure of a car's performance, then feel free. Personally, I like to draw from my years of experience with RallyX and AutoX to judge the two cars. Not to mention my own eyes which see a lowered 370Z with much less body roll than stock.

Fun video but doesn't really shed a lot of light on anything. Not really a benchmark at all, as many others have already posted. Furthermore both cars behaved exactly as I would have expected. FT-86 looks more agile and exhibits better lateral response. @ :49 the turn-in on the 86 is quicker, but Z's power advantage is also very evident at the 1:05 area where it's able to keep the grip loose around those cones to keep rotation, whereas the 86 rely's on momentum and even runs out of slip before fully rotating. No doubt eh?
True indeed. Anyone expecting to beat a 370Z at any but the smallest, tightest tracks with this car will be disappointed.

I know your thought process isn't that abysmally linear is it? Really? from my statement you gathered "0-60 only" and "Oval track racing"

You're joking with me right?

You don't see the correlation between stationary acceleration/low speed acceleration and the results of this video?

"The BRZ has a lower CG, smaller polar moment of intertia, and less weight."
Oh man, here's the blind enthusiast catch-phrase working it's magic yet again. Man where's the other group of guys who just LOVE factoring in "low center of gravity" into every aspect of driving dynamic display by this car. You will more than likely cling to this collection of variables that have limited involvement in the cars competence based on a collective of outside influences like it was the last thread of the bungee chord.

Those obviously aren't what you're talking about if you're speaking in any regards to the video posted, because whether or not the BRZ is capable of turning in a much tighter circle than the Z or not, the cars have a starting line...And the starting line to the first corner will be a display of straight line acceleration. And guess what 0-60 times matter in? Displays of straight line acceleration...So whether or not this car can out brake out corner out slalom out fall out of a plane out dig for gold in the yukon the Z, the ONLY conclusive and comparable data that can be used to justify the results or "effort" put by either driver in this video are completely inaccurate according to the footage...

As for the rest of your, "questionable"(to say the least) statement.. a:Smaller amount of polar movement is not necessarily a benefit in gymkhana, and actually can be quite the hindrance on a car that can't overpower tires with inertia/momentum and power. So there goes your "plus" as there is no telling if it in fact is a plus or not. This in fact lends to the credibility of the "gymkhana tuned z" as the increased lateral weight shift of the Z in a "tuned gymkhana car" would be used to aid it in many of the intricate corner series..
b: Feel free to post some of your rallycross and autocross credentials..

One thing this this car has done it sure has boosted the vocabulary among forum goers..

I swear i've never heard ANYONE use the terminology "Polar moment of inertia" as if a low value was a good thing for an automobile. Unless today is opposite day and having a car that can't resist deformation due to torque is a good thing to have. OH maybe that's because no one bothered even mentioning it until it was publicized about the car, which somehow then took the place of all terms involving "weight transfer" in the vehicle...not to mention discussing a variable that changes dramatically throughout use/application....

Hilarious dude...hilarious..

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...-here-meme.png

I'm more interested in a track comparison.... preferably something like tsukuba.

Thanks for the vid!

Wow..

So a low CG is meaningless and cars should have MORE weight transfer for cornering? You do realize you're describing an SUV here, right? :bonk:

Looking over this again, I think I see where you're confused. In materials science, a "polar moment of inertia of area" is a resistance to deformation by torque. However, in racing, "polar moment of inertia" is used to refer to a car's resistance to changes in rotational velocity, usually in Yaw. You're in luck too because Racecar Engineering recently did an article about Polar Moment of Inertia. Feb 2012, pg 33. You'll see how a low PMI is desirable in something like AutoX and Gymkhana.

As for 0-60, might I point out a few sources of error with your argument?

First, other than the initial launch, 0-60 only tests top-end acceleration as the RPMs don't drop to idle between gears.

Second, if the BRZ is acellerating to a speed below 60mph, as was the case in this video, it doesn't need to shift to 3rd.

Third, the BRZ's 0-60 time is in doubt as magazines have reported times in the low 6s as well (Motortrend reported a 6.4, a clear second faster than "mid 7 second 0-60")

Ultimately, however, none of this changes the fact that the cars were a second apart. I'm quite sure if I were to protest the results of an event by saying "Those times can't be right, the gap between Car A and Car B should have been greater" I'd be laughed at and my protest tossed in the trash.

I am looking forward to playing with the BRZ at an AutoX event. I probably won't do all that well in the scope of the event, but that's more my fault than the car's. I do much better outside the traction circle than within it which is another reason why I want the BRZ. Power covers up errors in the corners.

So it isn't linear thinking, it really is just an inability to follow along.. I'll try and separate subjects with a line or some sort of visual indicator to assist you.

No where did I sate a low CG was meaningless, nor did I state "MORE weight transfer for cornering". If that's the conclusion you came to then you should spend more time tuning suspension. Perhaps you miss-understood me when I said the proper management of the weight transfer can be mutually beneficial in a performance situation such as a gymkhana course. But that is YOUR miss-understanding coming to fruition, so please don't miss quote me simply because you can't follow along.

1 Low CG is a great thing, it's wonderful because it takes alot of headache out of the job of honing in the suspension; at least to a capacity we here at this forum are capable of doing.

Does Low factor CoG mean the car is going to do things never seen before? Nope.

Does it garnish as much encouragement and enthusiasm as you're giving it. No, not at all. Because once again like everything else is merely a variable in a long drawn out "equation" that results in the cars performance.

Which are exactly the same thing, deformation of path/trajectory or deformation of stationary object..principles apply exxxaaacctttly the same.. Repetition is a good thing, but using it as a response to justify your lack of clarification to the rest of the statements in question does absolutely ZERO to bolster your presumed grasp of the information.

And if it really took you the purchasing of a subscription to racecar engineering to give you the world changing insight that..."A car can be too stiff for the race track" I suggest you choose another source of information because informational gems like that can probably be found in the rice-weekly build-a-thon mags found in Autozone racks.

Ooooh well did they now...Well then PLEASE by all means give a rundown of what this article said. And please relate as to how the cars low PMoI has to do with the FT86/BRZ being 00:01:00 seconds ahead of the 370z before the first corner... Because this little dance your doing in some attempt to filibuster your initial "I don't see how the cars acceleration has ANYTHING to do with this video at all" statement could be ended with a proper answer right there..

But I'm going to assume your answer ISN'T going to be "It is preferred because Mark Ortiz says he wants yaw minimized in a road course instead of an oval course. Stating clearly, No one measures PMoI, small wheelbase cars with low PMoI are prone to be fickle in tight cornering situations." And of course how it applies to full race cars, in production cars it simply because an issue of aesthetic placements and additional ballasts that go along with being a road going vehicle.....But the 370z is a car "Tuned for Gymkhana" So that doesn't apply to it like it does the BRZ does it now? As a car tuned for Gymkhana will obviously have taken things like "PMoI" in account... Something i might add, no one said/brought up/mentioned until this car slathered the headlines with it.

So I won't hold my breath for an answer in regards to that, but i'll be pleasantly surprised if it gets addressed.

0-60 only tests top end acceleration.....Soooooo other than this statement not making sense, are you implying that 0-60 is a test of a top-gear acceleration test? As in highest foreward driving gear from 0-60?..Or are you implying that RPM's don't apply? Or are you saying that in a race situation, when you accelerate from 0-60..you let your rpm drop to idle before you shift.....If that last one is the case (however delusional that case may be) the Rev-Sync system in the Z wouldn't allow for the rpm to hit "idle" on a shift anyway....But really WTF are you talking about?

..........What an astonishing discovery.

So..Your clarification as to how the BRZ out accelerated the "Tuned 370z" from a dead stop...to the first cone was..... "RPM drop between top end acceleration" which is hilarious to think of.
"Not shifting into third"
and Motor trend posting a "estimated time"..(yes that "est" after the time, means estimated..not "Eastern Time" or "Extra Super Timed"

You don't find it odd that only ONE magazine got a 6 second 0-60..And that one time was an "estimation"..? Is that normal?


If you were to protest who crossed the finish line first, on the grounds of "The first corner didn't make sense" Then yes it would be tossed in the trash.. However I never once stated "car A obviously REALLY won here, you can tell by the first second!".. I did however say, putting a blind dumb and deaf 8 year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari 430 and Kubica behind the wheel of Paseo, and have the Paseo come out victorious doesn't really present grounds for the youtube video "PASEO is just as good as the 430..This video proves it" To be supported by people saying "well the paseo's got a small wheelbase, and it's really light for it's power..so i can see how it might happen"


And yet again you trail off talking about "i'll be doing this in my local racing series and that too, if you didn't notice because i'm such an accomplished driver etc thats how you can trust me..years of experience" without showing any credentials...

But then again, never trust a man who leads his argument with his credentials....

^ Epic.

Why don't you just point out that it looks like the Z bogged or missed a shift? It takes off really slow then scoots.

You're obviously not some retard but holy confrontational sarcasm trollman!

(Not formerly PAImportuner by chance?)

For some reason, this seems to have become really personal for you.

Funny, I'm sure you said increased weight transfer aids in changing direction.
[emphasis mine.]
With greater weight transfer comes with lower overall grip due to the decreasing coefficient of grip of the tires as load increases.

Never said it would. But a low CG is almost always better than a high CG.

No argument here. Though I don't see an excess of enthusiasm. A low CG is a low CG. As above, it's a good thing and this car starts below its competition and can easily be lowered from there. I don't see how that's not something worth noting.

So you're saying that a car with its weight closer to the cg does not change directions any easier than one with its weight at the ends? I think a lot of people would disagree.

Ahh, the attack on the magazine as a source of information. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. Ah well.

And in what way are you using the word "Stiff"? Are you talking about chassis rigidity? You keep bringing up torsional deformation.

You're focusing on the initial start an awful lot. It's no argument that the Z driver must've flubbed the start in some way. But that's how racing goes, the driver is as important as the car, if not moreso.

I never said acceleration had nothing to do with this, but I would say that 0-60 has very little to do with it. There's only one standing start and the BRZ doesn't need to bother with the 2-3 shift. It really would come down to 1st and 2nd gear acceleration.

Now, to be clear here since I think we're not fully understanding each other, I am not saying the BRZ can beat or even match the acceleration of the 370Z. I'm merely pointing out that they might be a bit closer than you may think if you just compare their 0-60 times. Especially if you're choose the worst-case figure of mid 7s.

Oh good, you have read the article. Great magazine, btw.

However, knowing you've read it, I'm still confused why you don't think a low PMoI is important in a form of racing that focuses on tight courses with lots of changes in direction. Believe me, it does help. Removing the bumper beams from my WRX made a noticeable difference in its maneuverability and responsiveness.

And yes, the Z driver may have moved weight inboard to help. Seems like that would make the BRZ's job tougher.

And just because noone's mentioned PMoI, it doesn't mean that it didn't exist before the BRZ or that it hasn't been taken into account by other manufacturers.

I'm saying that exiting a turn in a race like an AutoX or Gymkhana can easily bring you to the low end of the RPM range. A 0-60 test, once past the launch, stays in the upper RPM band. I'm pointing this out as a souce of error for using 0-60 as a way to judge AutoX or Gymkhana performance.


And yet that second shift factors into the BRZ's 0-60 time. So again, a source of error since it doesn't factor into the scenario in the video.


[quote]So..Your clarification as to how the BRZ out accelerated the "Tuned 370z" from a dead stop...to the first cone was..... "RPM drop between top end acceleration" which is hilarious to think of.
"Not shifting into third"
and Motor trend posting a "estimated time"..(yes that "est" after the time, means estimated..not "Eastern Time" or "Extra Super Timed"

You don't find it odd that only ONE magazine got a 6 second 0-60..And that one time was an "estimation"..? Is that normal?[quote]
I've never even addressed that as it was quite likely driver error. It seems you are under the impression that I believe the BRZ out accelerates the 320Z. I can assure you that's not the case.

The 370Z won even after flubbing the start, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. My comment was that, despite the factors working against the BRZ, a 1 second loss was impressive. I don't see that as saying a BRZ is equivalent to a modified 370Z.

Which is why I didn't bother posting them when you asked for them.

I don't remember my last post saying " if you didn't notice because i'm such an accomplished driver etc thats how you can trust me..years of experience" I did say the BRZ would be a learning tool. I wrote that hoping to bridge this discussion into something less confrontational. But it appears that you just want conflict.

I'm not sure what your goal in this is. At no point have I sad a BRZ is as fast or faster than a 370Z. I have never said anything bad about the 370Z. I even noted that the drivers were a large portion of the result. So are you just trolling at this point?