Eneos 75w-90 Oil for MT
 

I know it is a GL5 only gear oil but, I put Eneos 75w-90 Gear Oil in my Manual Transmission and I like it the best out of the 3 different gear oils that I have tried. I did as much research as I could before putting it in the car. All the reports that I read seem to conclude that it was safe for yellow metals and this was supported by a Blackstone Report from a few RX8 guys. The RX8 transmission has brass synchros and is rated for GL4 just like ours and those guys have been using this with great sucess.

I went from stock to Motul Gear 300. Motul was better but not great. Still some synchro problems and the odd grind into 2nd.

I changed from Motul to Redline MTL. Car felt much better. Synchros worked better and a little less grinding. Felt less "stiff" compared to the Motul. As reported by a number of people on here, this tranny seems to like a thinner fluid. But I felt there was still room for improvement. I considered Pentosin but decided to try the Eneos 75w-90 instead.

The car feels fantastic with the Eneos. Shifting is smoother, no grinding. Just feels right to me.

Has anyone else tried the Eneos 75w-90. Not much info on it on here other than people dismissing it as a rear diff only fluid for being a GL5. I wouldn't mind hearing from someone else to see what they think of it.

Good. Please contact the RX8 guys if you have any powertrain warranty claims. :D

So does this Eneos gear oil contain 30-50% less extreme pressure additives than a GL4 oil? The only advise that I would take, other than the manufacturer, is from someone that actually blends gear oil.

Good luck!
:happy0180:
-Dennis

Do NOT use a gl5 where it calls for a gl4

Not all GL5's are the same.

I have had it in there for 300kms and shifting has never felt better.

If it is safe for the brass synchros then what other damage can it be doing?

How do you know this? Did Eneos say that it is safe for the synchros? I would presume that if it is safe for the synchros, then it would be a GL5 oil that also meets GL4 like Motul Gear 300.

Do you know the exact level of zinc, phosphorus, and especially sulfur? AFAIK, Blackstone does not test for sulfur and low ZDDP that shows up in a Blackstone uoa does not mean that sulfur is also low and sulfur is a predominate additive in gear oil. If sulfur is 40-60% lower than on a GL5 then you're probably fine. There have been many Subaru owners that trashed their gears and synchros on gear oil that had a good shifting feel.

More info:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php

http://www.eneos.us/product/8

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182&page=1

Post the voa in the Gear Oil forum at bitog and Molakule may respond and give you his input on it. Do you have a link for it?

-Dennis

Don't use gear oil in your transmission.

Here is a copy of the UOA of Eneos 75w90 from an RX8 Aisin Transmission

So that's a used oil analysis from an RX-8. I was thinking that it was a virgin oil analysis. Like I mentioned, knowing the sulfur level would be beneficial. And only two uoa's are not definitive that there will not be a problem in this application down the road. First, two random uoa's are better suited to tell you about the condition of the lubricant, not that it is or is not a good indication that something is wearing out.
See this article on uoa's:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

Second, be careful when comparing uoa's in two different applications. Even when comparing a uoa in another FR-S/BRZ, results may be completely different from yours because of different driving conditions, mods, state of tune, etc.

Show me 5-10 consecutive 15k mile FR-S/BRZ uoa's with low copper, then I might say that this gear oil is fine. And that's only after I receive confirmation from someone in the industry like an employee of Eneos or maybe Molakule at bobistheoilguy because he blends gear oils. :) Or maybe 3-5 Dyson Advanced uoa's with commentary by Terry Dyson. You get what you pay for. ;) http://dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_Analysis

Do you know much make-up oil was added? The column in the uoa states 2 quarts but the comments say 1/2 quart. Make-up oil skews the uoa results a bit and may make wear metals look better than they actually are. If the next uoa shows still increasing aluminum, Blackstone will probably say there is a problem.

-Dennis

Sorry to dig up a fossil thread, but actually I'm using Eneos as well & love it. Eneos did say it's safe for synchro on their site & I research a bit seem to be yellow metal friendly.

Anyone mind explain to me how gear oil rated in GL5 is bad idea in ur transmission?? :bonk:

And thank you for spending your money to be the guinea pig. Saves me from doing it. ;)

Scroll up, read post #5. It's typically a general statement and why? Because most normal folks don't have the intelligence, patience or aptitude to do the research so it just easier to say.. "Run Gear oil in your differential, run Transmission fluid in your transmission."

New transmissions, especially many coming out of Japan (all of Honda Manual transmissions for example) are specifically designed to run a lubricant with the viscosity close to 10w-30 which has a cSt rating of 8.5-10 or so at 100C that also have the proper additive packages for the synchros.

75w-90 Gear oils have a cSt rating of 14-16 at 100C. Typically gear oils not only lack the extra additive packages for optimal synchro engagement and longevity but some actually have chemicals in them that harm brass synchros. Like I said, typically, but not always. We don't have large hypoid type transmissions and the lubrication needs of our transmission is different.

The other part is the thickness. The gears in the transmission act like a pump and there's several small passages leading to things like needle-bearing-collars that the gearsets ride on and they are dependent on oil flow. If those passages plug, if flow is reduced.. excessive wear can/will occur. If you're going to racing your car in the summer desert heat then we'll talk but until then, thicker isn't better.

Haha ok

How? I mean I do live in vegas...so... 100 is a everyday thing in the summer. :lol:Can you explain why?

I guess I have to trust Eneos on this then..........So far I really really Love it, it's much cheaper then motul & feels amazing. I will report back after another 10k.

Wish I live in Japan then I could have just gotten myself some Wako's Super MT and be done with it. All Area 86 stock them...pretty much designed for our car.

Well.. I can explain why, but at this point I just don't think it will be doing any good. You've failed to comprehend a lot of good information thus far so putting anymore out there seems counter productive.

Enjoy your gear oil.

Hey I'm not trolling :brokenheart: Come on how is explaining a bit gonna hurt you? Live & let live.:cheers:
Our factory fill from Japan is 75w85 GL5, lots ppl there do factory fill + NNL690G. There is no need be bitter...

1: Our factory fill from Japan is GL3, not GL5 and if you pay attention in class you will know that 75w-85 is thinner than a 75w-90.

2: You said you lived in Vegas and even in your PM you said you do "small track events". Well, neither of those is racing. Neither of those environments will heat your transmission oil up to 300F for extended periods of time and even after the "small track event" your trans fluid will spend the rest of it's life functioning between 40F and 140F. Also the 86 isn't like a FWD car where the Diff sits in the same oil as the gear shafts, adding to the heat..nope, it's just two shafts, their gears, synchros and bearings. Since you don't have to worry about long periods of extensive heat, you don't need a thicker solution.

3: Thicker isn't better. Just like was already posted but you aren't understanding that the lubrication needs of your transmission addresses 4 things: Synchros, gears, seals and bearings. You need film-strength and additives for the gear teeth contact, material compatibility for the seals/gaskets, thermal stability for longevity of the fluid, and appropriate viscosity for bearing lubrication because the bearing lubrication depends greatly on flow. Example: Starve those needle-bearing collars from lubrication because you're oil is too thick and wear increases. This type of wear doesn't require the vehicle to be driven hard either.
http://www.esotericperformance.com/blog/1/

What may also happen at some point as well is that the thicker oil will reduce the synchro's ability to engage the gear at very high rpms while rapidly shifting, reducing the effectiveness of the synchro to do its job.

4: Sulfur. It is well established that sulfur is not friendly with bronze. Most GL5 Gear oils contain sulfur. Only a select few do not. Sulfur deteriorates bronze and according to Eneos' own website, your gear oil contains sulfur.

5: With all this being said, there are some, but very few, GL5 oils that don't have sulfur, aren't too thick and won't cause any ill-effects outside maybe a slight reduction in MPGs, however I don't think Eneos Gear oil is one of them.

6: This, right here is why I stated earlier...

There you go, enjoy your Gear Oil. Please don't PM me.

Thank you, now I get it. I just don't know why you are so ansty about it... but thank you nonetheless Sensei. /bow

Yeah, although - i have spent 2 years of pondering on this all(about MT oil) and have experience with varios oils over extended period hot and cold. Manual specs for GL3 oil and every oil i have tried has been either GL4 or similar exceeding properties of GL5. Now i was suggested by Bardahl that i should use their oil with their additive and i did try it, is was nice but sadly in winter with -20C, failed with grinds. Currently i'm running second time with pentosin, can't say i'm happy but i do feel much more confident than with any other before. Also i got to try out with ATF fluid, i thought its safe for short period and it was thicker than pentosin - and god there was a difference(it was winter period). Gear lever was like a radio button going click and click into every gear. so having all this experience(and i must stress out, no scientific background on fluid dynamics) i start to feel that one and only major difference between specced GL3 and every other oil on the market is actually EP additives. Reading Wiki or any other book on oil classification also implies to that. This also goes very much with characteristics of ATF. Also Honda(guess what, also Jap car with no diff in gearbox - at least some of them) guys debate about all the time - which is right, 10W30 motor oil or honda MTF fluid. many say, runs smoother with motor oil but don't dare to track with motor oil. again difference there? gear oil certainly has much much greater amount of EP additives mixed into, because of splash type lubrication that engine doesn't have, engine should be good with constant film thickness in a constant flow.
Now reading any, and i do mean ANY datasheet of any oil(especially MOTUL oils, that are really good stuff) you'll see that great deal of EP additives advertised, as well from surveys, 78% of mechanics put extra EP additives when changing your oil.
I don't think syncros of our cars are weak, they just are not designed to have extremely strong oil film. I don't know what i'm going to do next with my MT oil, but until then - Drive like you stole it!

Please, feel free to share thoughts on that, i would love to know second opinions about my logic, maybe i'm flawed :D

This proves my point of how thickness can reduce the synchro's ability to "grip" the cone of gearset and retard its motion leading to a grind.
The s2000 is an Aisin transmission like ours it stands to reason that the lubrication requirements as dictated by Honda for the S2000 (aka a thin fluid like Honda MTF) are applicable to our Trans. We know this to be true.

Secondly, a 10w-30 isn't wise because..and you said it..additives. Even in Honda manuals it says that 10w-30 motor oil can be used "in an emergency but only for a short duration". (paraphrasing). Some 10w-30 motor oils would be better suited in the transmission than others like those high in moly and zddp but none will be as good as a proper MTF.

Interesting thing about FWD... FWD MTs have their Diff inside the gearbox and because of this, where the Pinion gear (part of the countershaft) contacts the Ring Gear, the principle of film strength and EP additives becomes very important. So the balance between thinness, film strength and additives a fine one because it has to be strong enough to withstand the pressures between the pinion teeth and the ring gear while also allowing the synchros enough friction to engage the gear cone. In the RWD application of our car and the S2000, the "balance" isn't quite as fine, but nonetheless there's still a balance.

Synchros are a pretty common design and functional application. I posit that going with an oil with less film strength is not the right direction, but instead choosing an oil with the proper viscosity and additive package where it's high film strength protects the gears and bearings but it's thinness allows the synchros to "grap" the gear cone. If that makes sense.

It hasn't been mentioned on this board because there's not a lot of Honda folks here but FWIW, the next oil going in my transmission is TORCO MTF. It's very well known in the Honda racing community and works very well for daily driven S2000's that are tracked a lot.

I do get all the points, and i really fancy torco MTF idea after little googling. But there are some concerns as well for me.
first, in US market it's rated GL5 oil, in international(and Europe) market as GL4 oil - strange. There are people who point out that it's brass safe although manufacturer doesn't imply to that. and i may be wrong but S2000 doesn't have brass in gearbox?
another thing, it looks a little thicker than pentosin MTF, not a bad thing but pour point -20C sounds like a track only or summer driven cars. i live in climate lot like northern Canada and this temp is easy to reach within winter.
But please, once you have tried it out, don't keep us guessing, put up a good review of it. I'd be thrilled to read it (Y)

This should help
http://www.teammfactory.com/articles_gear-oil
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/MTF.pdf
It's OK that it's a tad thicker than Pentosin because it's the difference of 7.7 (pentosin) and 8.35 (Torco MTF). So it's a very small difference but I can see that due to your geographical location, you may want to opt for the thinner of the two.

I run the Mfactory Final Drive (last 4 years) and just upgraded to the Mfactory metal plate LSD in the Honda race car and ditched the Torsen I had. I used Pennzoil Synchromech in my race car for the last 4 racing season but I'm switching to Torco because of the expensive Diff. And when a manufacturer recommends a fluid, it's pretty wise to follow that. :)

Mfactory exclusively recommends Torco because of how compatible it is with Honda transmissions, specifically Brass, EP and cSt, as well as their performance parts. In the Honda racing community (FWD and S2000's alike) the Torco is massively popular and a preferred option.

In cars with high HP or very high Ambient temps some racers are mixing the MTF (thin) with the RTF (thick) to bring up the cSt of the fluid to account for extremely hot oil temp (~300F)!

In April I'm going to change the FRS engine oil so I'll change the transmission oil too at that point and report back. I'll also be testing the race car in April so I'll be able to see it in action under a high heat, high stress environment.

Still on the eneos and how's it been thinking of going with it real soon for my put away tune up before winter hits

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I changed mine already since I'm pass 25k mile. :p (rice_classic scared me so i changed early) right now I'm using the motul everyone praised about. I think Motul is so smooth that you lost a lot feel, like too much butter on top of cheese... Lol

During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth.

one thing that I know now & i don't before is that. WAKO's & Zero sport Gear oil for toyota 86 are both GL5 oil. (most popular gear oil for 86 in japan)

So motul ok I'll check it

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When I said "During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth."

That's me talking about Eneos, Mutol is the one that's like too much butter. :lol:

Ok yea is butter good or bad becuase I know if it's to smooth you'll grind becuase the viscosity breaks down but if it's good butter I'll go with motul

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Eneos 75w-90 Oil for MT
 

It's good butter, it makes the transmission so obedient you won't believe the difference if transmission is new.
I can rev match into first easily after I got motul.


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Nice so now I know what I'll jump into too

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