Every difference between the MT and AT
 

Down to the last detail.

Modibility. Performance. Advantages. What's offered for the MT that isnt for the AT and vise versa. Will I regret my AT decision on a "fun" level even more because of these things?

Sorry if this has been touched on 1000 times already

I'll let experts chime in on the gritty details, but the most notable to me is the gear ratios. 5th gear is 1:1 in the MT vs 4th in AT. Obviously short ratio 1-4 has better performance and is more entertaining due to torque multiplication, but the AT having a .582 vs the MT's .767 sixth gear sold me due to the gigantic gas mileage improvement.

If you're going to dragrace, especially with a turbo, the AT has an edge of course. EcuTEK's racerom features for the MT assist in bridging that gap though: launch control, no lift shift, etc.

Modification wise, there's a multitude more products for the MT. Clutch, flywheel, gearsets, short throw shifter, etc. There'll eventually be an aftermarket torque converter for the AT, and so on, but there's not much available at present.

Same here. Even with a shorter final drive, the 6AT's transmission gearing is taller across the board. You can shorten the FD to improve gears 1-2-3 but gears 4-5-6 will remain tall. I don't see aftermarket AT gears coming anytime soon if ever.

Whether this truly matters depends on the purpose of the car. If left NA or stock, I personally can't see this being very fun.

Gigantic?

Let's say for math purposes that you drive 15,000 miles per year, the 6MT gets 30 MPG highway, the 6AT gets 35 MPG, and gas costs $4/gallon.

6MT: 15,000 / 30 = 500 gallons. 500 * $4 = $2000 per year in gas
6AT: 15,000 / 35 = 428 gallons. 428 * $4 = $1712 per year in gas

The annual difference is $288, less than one extra fill-up per month.

With the 6AT being roughly $1000 more than the 6MT, it would take 3.5 years (1000/288=3.47) for the 6AT to meet the upfront cost difference over the 6MT. Given those numbers you'd have to drive it longer than 3.5 years to start saving. Anything under 3.5 and you're spending more.

This doesn't factor in paying higher tax, added monthly finance cost (if applicable), or maintenance costs. If the 6AT proves to need expensive rebuilds then the difference could be a wash or fall highly in favor of the 6MT. It could take longer than 3.5 years to even out or potentially never even out.

Of course, your math might work out more favorably. It would depend on how long you keep the car, annual mileage, MPG, local fuel prices, whether or not you paid cash, and so on. For some it might be gigantic. For others it's minuscule.

Tough to say. The fact that you're asking says that you might already regret it. :iono:

At least it has paddle shifters. That's arguably better than bumping a gear selector up and down.

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The car just feels so lame unless you really get on it and I have just been curious what the MT feels like while DD. I planned to track it eventually and knew the AT would be the easiest way to go to start learning, plus MPG was my motivation behind the choice. Price increase was irrelevant AT is what it is. I just wanna know the performance isn't too far behind (atleast forever behind) the MT. I just see so many tuners, and videos, and owners in general using the MT platform specifically and feel like the AT is just swept under the rug. I get it. This car was meant to be MT. It just sorta sucks we get such little "support" I guess.

By the way anyone know how much more the AT weighs over the MT?

Definitely appreciate you doing the math, so don't take offense here as I may be off base. Just from my firsthand experiences: pure highway driving in my friend's MT averages 31 mpg. My pure highway average in the AT is 41. 10+ mpg is notable, at least in my eyes.

Reference on the AT's mileage being horribly underrated factory (50 seconds in):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKD4jtxSG1Q"]2013 Scion FR-S Review - MPG Test Drive - YouTube[/ame]

I'm not contesting the manual's more fun---I think that's obvious enough to not require discussion, but I think the auto definitely has a place depending on what you're using the car for. I put a lot of miles on mine highway driving between cities, but for my entertainment driving, I do a lot of tight, twisty roads. Being able to have both hands on the wheel at all times is excellent, and the paddle shifters actually respond briskly unlike previous paddle vehicles I've owned. It's not QUITE as fast as DCT's I've driven, but it's damn close.

Don't take offense. Just my personal preference. If the car was a weekend-only toy, it'd have a third pedal.

There's another thread somewhere and I think it was stated 80 pounds? As far as the support thing, I don't think it's that we're being ignored, there's just not much to do to it. Launch control, no lift shift, etc doesn't apply. Once EcuTEK etc are able to tweak the TCU for lockup, shift points, line pressure, etc, I expect to see large improvements. Also, we can get away with 4.56 gears and still be at less RPM on the highway then the MT's. Drive an auto with 4.56 or 5.29's and it won't be lame, I promise. ;)

I wanna say I saw in a video review its only like 50lbs? Correct me if Im wrong.

No offense taken at all. My example was based on rough averages and is why I said your numbers might work more favorably.

In your case the 6AT could potentially pay for itself in a bit over 2 years. However, if both of you financed the purchase prices in full then you're likely paying around $200 more per year than your friend, pushing your break-even point back to around 4 years.

Details aside, my point was more in saying that it could take a long time for the auto to win the cost game based on MPGs alone. "Gigantic" isn't a word I'd personally use unless the overall numbers were considerably more favorable.

Absolutely, and no math can argue that. :thumbsup:

If you can't rev match and heel toe you will be faster around bends in the AT. While some may argue learning that is part of the MT fun, that is your decision to make. Don't let anyone put you down for owning an AT.

I believe the MT is 2750 and the AT is 2850, so ~100lbs.

I have a auto, I love streets of willow.. I cruise from Vegas to there and enjoy my 38-42mog doing it.. While there, as the car was stock except exhaust, I managed to get my lap time within 9/10ths from Randy Pobst fastest lap in a FRS.. I am quite proud of that.. I mean in racing a sec is a lot.. But for only three times in a car, to be that close to a pro driver.. I was happy.. Now I don't know if I'd be just as fast in a manual.. But I sure don't feel the Auto held me back.. And for the record.. My three fastest laps were within 3/10ths of each other and in "Auto" in sport mode, traction off

Thanks for all the positive responses guys. Really good knowing I didn't make a "bad" decision :burnrubber:

All I'm gonna say, is I'm glad I got the manual.

Holy crap I didn't realize that the 5-60mph were only .2 seconds apart where the 0-60 are like a full second+. I found that interesting how drastic leaving the line is to the 0-60 times. Once that can be corrected everyone will definitely stop giving it shit.

FALSE!

Took me 30 seconds to go to scion.com and check the curb weight difference...

MT - 2758 lbs.

AT - 2806 lbs.

So the automatic transmission weighs 48 lbs. more than the manual.

Right, it's due to the AT inability to launch at higher RPM. Like the others said, don't let anybody get you disappointed over an AT. Especially yourself, enjoy the car and figure out your own likes/dislikes. While the MT can launch better, neither car is really fast in a straight line so I don't really even pay attention to that. First thing I modified on my car was wheels/tires and suspension, nothing to do with power.

If you experiment with the car in the various sport and manual shift modes you might come to enjoy it a great deal... At the end of the day, the availability of final drive aftermarket options really should make you feel good as you can change that out and make the AT lower gears as aggressive or more aggressive than a MT if that is what you want from your car.

Cliff notes - the AT on this car is pretty darn good. Don't feel bad for driving an AT, experiment with the different AT driving options to figure out which you like best. :-)

If someone comes up with an aftermarket torque converter that has a higher stall speed, and retains the lock-up feature, the 0-60 will drop noticeably. There are respected shops that could mod a stock one. If my car was auto, and not a daily driver, I would have already looked into it.

MMM... lower final drive, higher stall converter, and a centri blower would be a nice combo on an auto.

A lightweight high stall lockup converter and final drive would really liven up the AT. I think the gearing in the AT may have been deliberate, can't have the slushbox outperforming the "proper" gearbox. I test drove an AT and thought it was nice and sharp, but couldn't justify the added cost. There are times I wish I got the AT and times I'm glad I got an MT.

Honestly 0-60 is a useless figure IMO. I may drive aggressive but I never clutch drop, I just don't see the point. Seems like you are just burning $ for no reason.

There's another thread on this forum that has lots of detail, but I can't find it. Here's a handy video though.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsYIXNBENVY"]2013 Scion FR-S | Dynamic Rev Management Explained - YouTube[/ame]

Seriously do not feel bad whatsoever for getting an AT, there are countless articles praising it. Neither is "better" than the other, it's just down to preference now and "right tool for the right job".

I drive an AT. All cars I owned before my 86 were highly modded Hondas. Nothing compares to rowing through the gears powershifting! When I got the 86, I got the AT because when I test drove the paddle shifters, I was amazed with the responsiveness of it. Plus Philippine traffic is a bitch if you don't already know. This car is my daily driver, and I don't miss stepping on the clutch while stuck in traffic.
On the track however, I wish I had that third pedal. I have already done the final drive mod (4.556) which helps a lot, but powering out of turns with a torque converter just sucks compared to a high performance clutch. You do however have the consistency of shifting. I've seen a lot of MT drivers miss shifts on the track.
During our Dyno day, the MT cars had a 10-15whp difference on the AT cars. Until we get that high performance torque converter, that will be the glaring difference between transmissions.

My reason for buying MT was the ability to simply swap in a stage 2 clutch when making more power. I had a AT truck and I know the cost wont be the same but I was kicking my self after burning the 1st and 2nd clutch packs out.

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I owned an AT BRZ Limited for over a year and loved it at first, but then I got more serious about autocrossing and realized it was holding me back. The longer gearing, the less responsive torque converter, and the inability to perform decent launches were beginning to cost me in a sport where fractions of a second can win or lose it for you.

I experimented with brake torquing for better launches but that only helps so much. In addition, I researched a couple of the options for a final drive change, but such a modification would be fairly expensive and would also put me in a ridiculous autocross class.

I had a friend that let me autocross his MT FR-S a few times and it was clearly more peppy and could really dig out of low speed corners/transitions much better than the AT. Yes, you can easily downshift the AT to 1st in those situations, but the times that was advantageous were rare and having to shift back to 2nd will cost you a little time.

Now, for HPDEs and other non-competitive track days, I think the AT is great. You obviously don't need to launch and the paddle shifters will probably move through the gears more consistently and faster than most folks can do in a MT. The daily driving aspect of an AT is nice too. Stop and go traffic can get annoying in a MT and it's convenient to be able to hold a coffee or beverage in one hand while you're moving from stoplight to stoplight!

In the end I decided to sell my AT BRZ Limited with 11,000 miles and get a used MT FR-S with 260 miles and was able break even. The extra features of the BRZ Limited were nice but weren't critical and only served to make the car heavier for autocrossing. I'm very happy with my decision and I've definitely closed the gap on folks that used to beat me in my AT BRZ.

Had I not got addicted to autocross, I'd still have my AT and love it. Once my autocross skills progressed to the point where the AT/MT differences started to matter and I realized I could break even financially, I decided to make the swap.

Even if the MT is slower than the AT, I'd still get the MT. This is purely a toy car for me.

The 4.556 FD made a good diffrence is the shift points of my AT. Almost the same as MT in 1-2-3 gears. highly recommended.


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Heres a review of the BRZ AT with some numbers to compare to the MT

http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/brz/2013/road-test2.html

Me and a friend ran his stock MT FRS against my Auto with injen intake and greddy evo3 exhuast..

I'm recording, the red FRS is MT

[ame]http://youtu.be/Qde3TcynFAI[/ame]

[ame]http://youtu.be/IMwk8l60xkE[/ame]

Well that's disappointing footage lol. It's whatever. Not like I race anyway. I think I just need some more down low torque. I think ill be happy with the FA20 stage 2 I've been looking into and just go with cosmetic mods for the life of this car. Track days hopefully that's for sure ide love to learn. Only time will tell. Thanks for the info!

What all do I need exactly for the FD? There's more to it then just buying the "final drive" correct?

You will need new seals and shims.

The below thread can give much more info about this

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45152

I think you have your data flip-flopped:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5404

Below is MT. The link yo posted is flipped. sorry

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447

biggest difference...

i can throw my car in "D" when i hit rush traffic and chill lol

I want to chime in and say I like the way the AT drives (though I drive MT), it's good at torque conversion and shifts very quickly.

gah! Thanks for the heads-up.

my 86 is MT , i drive it in highway @ 140 km , the RPM rev @ 3.700 and i think the AT will be @ 2.800 !!

At 75mph I believe my auto is right around 2500 RPM..

How does the auto adjust for the different gearing of the final drive? Do you have a tune? I'm very interested in doing this some day. I drove manual the last few cars, and like you I thought the auto was pretty good for what it is. Thanks for any info!

Mike

Appreciate it man! Exactly the thread I was looking for! :thumbup:

Mike, the auto adjusts fine to the final drive. It did not confuse the ecu in any way. I did before my tune so I got to drive with it untuned for a few months. I did a review of my final drive install in my build thread if you're interested.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20088