Phantom Charger Poll
 

There has been talk lately in Fenton's Phantom Supercharger thread about market interest of the electric supercharger. I think it would be useful for Rob to gauge the interest in his revolutionary supercharger.

For reference, here is a link to the original thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

Where's the option for "I'm already FI."

I'm under the impression that this is a poll targeted to people who would still be in the market for an FI option.

Shouldn't it be in the engine section then? I didn't start hanging out in the FI thread til I was FI.

im a wait and see 6 months after release. I really feel like their numbers need to get a little higher on 93 octane before Ide jump on board for sure. 210whp isn't too shabby but in reality I wanted minimum 240-270 if I was spending some real cash on FI. Install and removal is what would sell me on it. period.

I suppose that's one way to look at it, on the other hand, people who are shopping around for FI options are most definitely browsing through this section to see what the options are and to see what feedback people are providing based on their experiences.

I came here religiously until I made my decision

I love the have fun with your toy option. :D

If I had a better approximation of the final price and delivery date, I'd be all over it. I'm ready to drop over 4k at other options, all of which are a compromise in one way or another. At the prices I've seen listed, this is cheap enough to just have fun with in the interim, while other options become more mature and possible warranty issues with the car (DI seals), get themselves worked out.

Where's the "I'd buy today if I had the money, but won't for 6+ months" option :P

Seriously though, if the 'rumors' are true that this is half or more the cost of other FI options, with considerably better low end torque numbers, they've got my vote. 30 minute install and 2 minute uninstall is icing on the cake since I'm not (yet) much of a gear head.

I keep throwing money at my laptop screen but nothing's happening. So, it's here whenever you're ready to take it.

I've been following the ESC thread closely for a while now, but would want to see some more long-term DD results, as well as how it responds to supporting mods.

I only recently got my BRZ and am trying to pay if off before going crazy modding. I should hit that in a year or so, and if the reliability is still there and the CEL issue can be resolved, I could definitely see this on my car.

Will buy as an early adopter. Reasons:

1. 57tq and 46hp @4200 on current dynos
2. Great value (price looks to be in the $1500 range)
3. Easy to bolt on, easier to reverse for warranty repairs
4. BRZedit base tune out of the box, ECUTek ready as of yesterday, Unichip on the way
5. Can be adapted to other mods (possibly even other FI mods)
6. Looks also to have future upgrade potential (more battery power, faster charging, twin ESC charging, etc).
7. Same hardware has been used in other vehicle applications for years now with no reliability issues.

This, to me, is worth the investment.

I'm glad to see 60 participants in the poll during the course of a holiday weekend. I'm also glad to see 50 people interested in the eCharger option.

I think if the tuning could work out, and I don' think it would be that difficult, would be awesome to run it with a turbo or centrifugal supercharger.

Two things - I'm in California, so now that I think of it it's probably not legal. Second, I like to keep my engine compartment clean, so hiding the wires is big deal.

As a long-time lurker here, I have a question. Perhaps it's been covered already, but what is this thing capable of with other supporting mods?

For example, full catless exhaust (including catless EL header), drop in filter, 93 oct + Electronic Supercharger and custom tune at sea level? Now what about E85?

I'm assuming the reduced restriction would reduce the amount of boost the electric supercharger could make, but should still increase overall power.

Thanks, and best of luck to this project. I'm a believer and I don't even have my car yet.

A lot of these questions have already been covered in the thread I linked above. It's now a very long thread but I would encourage you to read it.

The short answers on your questions:

No one knows the answer regarding supporting mods. The two vehicles that have produced dyno numbers are largely stock. I believe one tester has some exhaust mods beyond an axle back. In any event, the beta testers are evaluating the ESC as a stand alone system. I would expect to see results with significant supporting mods shortly after production release. But not from me :)

I'm waiting to see the numbers with supporting mods. Somebody show me 250whp with 93oct, headers and full exhaust, at sea level, and I'm all over it!

We are getting there. First dyno was 205 on dyno dynamics....After we went to the dynojet we got the same peak hp but higher baseline(by 10hp).

The tune is still being adjusted so i think we just lost some timing or fuel to lose that 10 hp(dynojet should have made 216hp). Based on those numbers after we added the experimental compressor we gained another 10 hp without tuning.

If we can get our first dyno's performance back and fine tune the experimental compressor we will be at about 230 dynojet HP on 93 octane.

It is unsure how supporting mods will help this system....if anyone wants to volunteer headers id be glad to test them out lol ;)

I think headers will make the biggest difference.

Thanks for the answers Fenton!

I think if you can show this thing reaching the 230whp mark with some supporting mods, you will have a huge amount of people jumping on board.

What I love is the shape of the power with this! Plenty of torque down low, still hitting good numbers up top, and minimal boost required to achieve it.

230WHP on a Dynojet requires ~7.0kW of power with no supporting mods.

Presently, 208WHP with 4.1kW.

Peak numbers are nice, but average gain and useable torque is the nature of this system.

Note: 10 psi @ redline requires ~+20kW.

Because there isn't any parasitic losses with making boost. That's the real elegance to this implementation.

This is cool if you lift of throttle, like say on the street. Tuned headers paired with velocity stacks would destroy this in every way.

I really don't want this thread to displace the technical discussion that is on-going in the thread noted in post #1. However, are you concerned about compressor surge? Remember that this unit only makes 2psi at high rpm. So there really isn't anything to be concerned about.

Nobody has made anything like that unless you can fill us in with what you know?

Certainly no header has matched this performance yet.

"Destroy" I think is a misplaced word here.

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Had to pick the first option as it seemed the most appropriate... though not entirely accurate for me... :D

I used to be sure I would end up with the AVO Stage 1, but now I'm leaning toward the innovate supercharger for it's simplicity... A conservative open source tune and a price tag around $1500 would make this a very serious contender. Cash in hand for any FI setup, but went with 'wait and see 6 months'.

Please do the math, here.

If I took this to the air strip and ran passes the battery would become dead.

The ratio of increase in engine torque to electrical draw is too high for a sports car.

Maybe in a mail truck it would work. Provided the FE savings can offset the initial cost to the Canada Post fleet. This is great tech. When you get 200 HP out of a 1L petrol engine I will invest.


Look at a Tuned N/A Bore/stroked Hyabusa. They average around 320HP.

This is high rpm tuning that you can only get with tiny motor design. Yes, it lacks robustness reliability of a street car engine. But point and case, we are all trying to fill the area under the torque curve.

Gains are to be had in the high rpm. Your supercharger WILL only ever flow at pressure in the low RPM range, where your diminished returns are hidden.

We have proven that this does work on a street car....nobody has said that this is a suitable option for a track car.

Im willing to bet that 99.9 percent of FRS will not see a airstrip :P lol.

This is to have fun, get good tq and decent power for a minimal investment in both money and time. Most FRS owners will also love the simplicity to return to stock for dealer visits, i personally have done 2 already :) I call it dealer mode haha

Depends on price...

What almost everybody seems to miss in this thread is the idea, once again, of a much broader hp, and torque curve. It's great to have a direct injection enhanced 2.0L engine that can make 200, flywheel hp, but it only does this for a tiny range of rpm in each gear. - Same applies to torque numbers. This type of boost system, will produce above peak factory numbers, in a much broader range than the stock, N/A system could ever hope to make, and simulates the over-all output of a much more powerful engine in daily driving, and actual measured performance numbers. It's the total area under the curve that pushes the car down the road. It's already beat flywheel numbers in peak whp, and it completely destroys the stock out-put curves in torque and hp along the way! In most ways, this system could knock off a revised stock version of the car that put out 230 whp at something like 8500rpm! What more could you guys want for $1500-1800 car mod?:eyebulge:I can't think of anything that might even come close.

So I spend 1500 and get low end torque comparable to what I would get for 3000. But for the extra 3000 I also get high end torque and expandability. Seems to me that if you are willing to spend 1500 to enhance performance of a 26000 car than you ought to be willing to spend another 1500 to make it a big boy mod.

The system will always be limited by a fixed flow that is dependent on kw availability from the engine, whatever size - 2.0L +/-. This is why this solution is not taken seriously. However, as a toy that slaps on and off faster than you can eat a sandwich its pretty darn neat. I would buy it for $200 to have some kicks, but for 1500 I would just spend the extra amount to get proper boost.

I do love the R&D and as parts become cheaper and batteries become better you never know where the price point could go. But its all about price point, it will never ever compare to conventional FI systems, as everyone involves agrees. So its all about price, as I see it.

I have to ask, what system are you comparing to? I imagine you're talking about the innovate system? That's the only system that gives a similar torque experience. I think they are a bit more than 3000, but ballpark we can call it that. Plus installation if you aren't handy. It's a good system, but from what the initial dynos tell us so far, the esc really isn't that far behind the innovate on the top end. They make about 225 rwhp basic configuration. The esc makes about 200ish, with the new compressor I'm hoping that it will make at least another 20whp. I think it has a stronger low end than the innovate system too. For less money. What the innovate system buys you is inexhaustible thrust (think high speed track days, extended throttle time), and potential for more power (albeit at even more cost). Really not competitive systems, just like innovate is not competing with high power turbo systems.


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I like the Innovative system. But the other things you get with it are higher IAT and higher fuel burn. For the cost, nothing will boost like the Phantom ESC at low rpm...right where this engine needs the most help.

Phantom Charger Poll
 

Same here, I like what Innovate has done, and I dig the sounds it makes. Curiosity got the best of me though, so I took a posted Innovate baseline dyno (hope you don't mind sw20kosh!) and overlaid the thattruth2001's dyno from Drift-Office on top. Take it for what it's worth:

1) Both are dynojets, but not the same, not same location, not same day, etc.
2) Cars are not equal - I don't know what bolt ons thattruth2001 has. The innovate car has overpipe and downpipe I think.

Purpose of this is to roughly compare the *shape* of the two curves more than anything. Disclaimer: I don't want any flak, I don't want any naysayers, not trying to prove anything, not saying they are directly comparable, it's just in the name of research :)

Red lines are Innovate out of the box, 91 octane. Blue lines are Innovate with some sort of meth injection, 91 octane. Dark green is thattruth2001's baseline, the two upper light green lines are hp and torque for the ESC during drift-office's test.

The innovate shows significant advantage over the ESC 6000 rpm and above, the ESC shows significant advantage over the Innovate system below about 4500. Will be interesting to see how the new compressor gains over the existing ESC.

I think for me it will come down to price. If its in the 1200-1500$ I might have to jump on this. This is the perfect system for the daily driver car. I would love to see how it deals with any track use. But this system cheaply gives this car what it really needs and that's a nice low end boost TQ and a decent peak HP increase.

Can't wait for this! I've been following the main thread for months, its what made me decide to join this forum. I'll more than likely be an early adopter. Really does seem like the perfect solution for day to day driving.

Interesting, it's almost like how the sprintex compares to vortech.

I have cash in hand. For the price(well, the estimated price, for those idiots that are gonna quote me saying price has not been specified...but it seems we're looking at 1500-1800), NOTHING BEATS IT.

Would I love to spend money on a sc or turbo? Sure...but I don't want to fork out the extra money for it, plus the supporting mods. So saying that if you want to spend $2k on a toy, you might as well be a big boy and spend $5k is stupid. For the price, this is awesome.

Price, I think is the biggest factor for most.

The limitations on the system have been over(over and over and over and over and over...I think you get the point) mentioned. Yes, we know with the esc we won't have unlimited boost like a sc/turbo, but for the average street car, it's gonna be damn fun.