WolfSong Audio Build
 

I guess I've been threadjacking other people's threads for long enough.

Knocking my door amps out for a bit got me moving on a full-fledged audio build. I'd been avoiding it for a few reasons... the first being that I didn't want to spend the money (still don't, see budget below), but I also didn't want to get into the complexity of a major SQ build, especially since it was going to be for my own personal enjoyment and not competitions. I was convinced that I didn't want to add weight to the car where I could help it, and unfortunately that's pretty much going to be the side effect of doing a quality build.

So here are some of the limitations I'm going to be working with.

• I want to keep the stock OEM Subaru Navi head-unit for the time being. I may decide to upgrade it later, but for now it does most of what I want and it's already there.
• I have a set of Alpine Type 6.5" X-REF components (SPX-17REF) lying around minus the crossovers which were accidentally damaged. This means that the final product will be Active 2-way or 3 - way system. If anyone's curious here's the specs on them: Alpine-SPX-17REF
• I need a processor with time alignment, especially if I decide to put the tweeters into the A pillars. I'll also need a processor that could handle a 3 way split, preferably a 4 way so I could have a 3 way front stage and then a sub channel. I was preferring the MS-8 as the primary option, and have seen them for less than $500 on Amazon, so it's a reasonable option with my budget, but I'm also open for input on other processors.
• I also have a 10" sealed sub box that's approximately .7 cubic ft airspace that I'd like to re-use. It had an old Rockfort Fosgate Sub from the 90's in it that sounded awesome, but in the past couple of years the surround deteriorated and is now cracking off, so I want to get something nice sounding back in that box.
• Since I have the drivers, my budget for the sub, 5 channel amp and processor will be roughly $1000 (and I'll be shopping around for the best prices on these items so I think that's do-able)
• I've already picked up the wiring for the amp, I went with 4 gauge since I was only planning on powering a 5 channel amp and a processor and not going with a multi-amp setup.
• I'd also like to do this in a staged fashion, so that I'm not spending everything at once. I'd like to buy the amp and the sub first.
• Based on the builds that I've seen, I'm thinking that I'm just going to hang the amp and the processor under the package tray, that will keep the trunk somewhat usable. I have a fused distribution box and an inline fuse to wire things properly back there.
• I've already reinforced the chassis ground with 0 gauge wire... but have not done the "Big 3" wiring mods.

I was pretty decent at this 12V stuff before... I only really stopped because I kept having issues with my back that took weeks and months to recover from and having that long time between being able to complete jobs meant that I finally just got my audio to a point where I could live with it, and then didn't take it any further.

I actually re-injured my back this past weekend, which has scared me a little since I wonder if it's a sign that I should just leave things well enough alone... but I've gotten to the point where I want this car to sound better... so I'm going to press forward... once I've recovered enough that I won't re-injure myself.

Staged Build:

1. STAGE 1 - Wire in the amp and the subwoofer, minor sound deadening (rattle control) in the trunk and package tray.
2. STAGE 2 - Major Sound deadening in the trunk and cabin. Wire the runs for the speakers to the doors and dash from the trunk.
3. STAGE 3 - Purchase sound processor and possibly mid-range drivers. Hook everything up and tune.
4. STAGE 4 - Crank it up and enjoy it!!!!

So the first step of Stage 1 is to determine the 5 channel amp and sub driver, and I know that the drivers I have like the power, and will be hooked up active. Alpine says 8-75W RMS in the specs, but I'm wondering what I should be realistically looking at per channel, and since I'm not going to have the OEM passive crossovers in the circuit, what do I actually need to be feeding to that midbass driver and to the tweeter. I've noticed that some of the new amps have speaker level inputs so that seems to be the way to get some bass in the car quickly.

Suggestions and education are definitely welcome. I know enough to be dangerous, but I'd welcome everyone's input since there's still a lot of stuff I need to figure out. I had just started to get into the heavy math type theoretical stuff before, but I also just like to tune by ear, I'm an ex-musician so I respond to music and sound on mostly an instinctive level anyways.

I'll start posting pics once I get started on wiring trunk for the amp.

Seeing as you have a brz I would suggest going aftermarket for a head unit. I did the same thing as you plan and invested in a lc6i but I feel like that is where my biggest upgrade could come from. The stock head unit is a pain in the ass. Very disappointed there are no outputs on the stock head unit.

I'm in stage 1 of your process right now... just added sub and started tuning and going to add some damper material.

Suba, you suggest changing the head unit before adding a DSP?

If you add the right head unit, you might not need a DSP.

I would do head unit and then make that decision for yourself later on. Thing with keeping oem it's gonna cost you a good amount of money and time getting it setup. Keep in mind all that will have to be removed when you install your new head unit.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...H/IMG_0056.jpg
Installing all those blue wires was a pain versus just running one cable from an aftermarket head unit.

I agree with SubaSteve that it's a real pain wiring for the speakers and I'm not looking forward to that particular task.
Finding a HU that has everything I want is a huge pain. I admit I've been spoiled in the past (had a Pioneer DEH980BT which included all of Pioneer's audiophile DSP stuff including time alignment, 5V outputs, graphic EQ and a 24bit Burr Brown DAC, I wish I still had it, but it went with my trade) I am not saying that it's not a possibility, but what I've found is that it's easier to use a processor to get that capability than it is to find a HU that has everything you need. At the time I tried to find a NAVI HU that had the same capabilities and sound quality and couldn't find anything.
It just seems easier with using a HU that has the features you want and doing the signal processing downstream.

I did the lc6 thing as well but wired it up under the dash and just ran rca's back to the trunk and then ran new speaker wire to the doors from the amp. I actually like the stock brz unit with nav. The lc6 was the best piece of the puzzle to make this all work.

The more I consider just getting a head unit, the more I realize that it will at least double the spend to get the same capabilities I have now.(Navi, Bluetooth, Sirius) I know the OEM system isn't the greatest, but based on what I looked at, the high grade Navi HU's were close to $1000 with quality DSP. I made the mistake once of buying a $1400 Kenwood Navi with the top DSP features and found it sounded like crap compared to my Pioneer (even though on paper it should have been equivalent or better). On top of that, the features, navi, and touchscreen worked so well I was compelled to put my fist through it in frustration. It was a very expensive mistake, and a lesson that the more things that are promised, the bigger the compromises, and that expensive mistake is one that can easily be repeated.

So instead, I think think that I will go with a sound processor to handle these features and then when I choose to upgrade the HU, I'm buying what works the best, not a compromise of feature sets. I thought about using some of the AudioControl products but I haven't found anything they make that is capable of Time Alignment... which is a must have for me.

Currently the main processors in the running:

• JL Audio MS-8
  • Pros: Easy self tune will get me 80% of the way. Do not have to spend a lot of time learning the finer points of tuning. Amplified outputs will run some speakers.
  • Cons: Hard to do the last 20% of the tune, expensive, limited ability to tweak as I learn. Good chance I may outgrow the tuning capabilities as I learn.
• Rockfort Fosgate 3Sixty.3
  • Pros: Very powerful tuning solution, can be found cheaply, will be able to grow and learn with the capabilities. Still has a method of auto-tuning the Factory EQ curve.
  • Cons: Steeper learning curve before being able to do things past the basic setup, will require amplifiers for all channels.
• MiniDSP 10×10 box
  • Pros: Extremely Flexible System, Pricing is not bad, tons of DIY support. Software plugins upgradable, able to program my own custom DSP
  • Cons: Not sure if the construction is up to the additional stresses of mobile audio environment. Steep learning curves for tuning. Not a plug and play solution. Will need amplifiers for additional channels.

There are still more processors to consider, these are just the ones I've researched so far based on what I've seen on the market.

Hum

If you have a cell enabled tablet, I'd suggest getting an Audison Bit 10D or Bit 1 with the volume control piece and using a Pure i20 to use toslink from the tablet to the DSP. This will get you a full digital signal to the DSP, a known commodity tablet for GPS NAV that updates itself for free, and a removable head unit. On the flip side, you will need to amplify all speakers.

You will not get a cleaner sound.

Did a little bit this weekend in running power to the rear of the car. I'm using Knukonceptz cables and hardware.
https://imageshack.us/a/img59/540/7g9y.jpg

I know some people think Tech-flex is overkill, but I prefer to be safe than sorry. I liked the brackets that I've seen on other builds so I decided to fab one up for myself.
https://imageshack.us/a/img22/2197/n3bv.jpg

https://imageshack.us/a/img27/5585/5cnn.jpg

I actually fed the cable up from the trunk. I used the sound tube opening which was too big on it's own for 4 gauge, so I decided to just pull it through in the split loom to fill in the space. I know some people have used the sound tube cut down to fill in the space, but I found that the Tech-flex made the cable too wide to fit through it, so the split loom was an inspired decision.
https://imageshack.us/a/img23/1566/fa5o.jpg

https://imageshack.us/a/img4/4192/nw4x.jpg

https://imageshack.us/a/img407/9955/ia84.jpg

I did make sure to secure the cable on run back. I also used a bit of split loom going through the back seat into the trunk.
https://imageshack.us/a/img818/1849/vjzt.jpg

https://imageshack.us/a/img17/9415/fz5w.jpg

Run up into the roof of the trunk to my distribution block.
https://imageshack.us/a/img542/7673/cbfe.jpg

https://imageshack.us/a/img62/573/v92k.jpg

I like the end result which is subtle and out of the way.
https://imageshack.us/a/img543/1420/w7yq.jpg

Now I need to get something to hook up back here... I've been thinking of getting in on the group buy for the 10" Custom Sub Enclosures fiberglass enclosure, so I've been looking for an appropriate driver and from there, a 5 channel amp.

Howdy WolfSong! I like the direction of your project, so please keep posting progress pics.

I'm in the planning stages for my SQ setup, and building a parts list. If you had any guidance, it seems like we're on similar paths.

These 4 items would be stashed in a case:

12V input ATX power supply with buck-boost (or similar)
http://www.mini-box.com/DCDC-USB-200?sc=8&category=981

MiniDSP 2x8
http://www.minidsp.com/products/mini...2-x-in-8-x-out

41Hz AMP9 (low profile) for mids and woofers. Made one before, and it's very possible for the patient among us.
http://shop.41hz.com/shop/item.asp?catid=13&itemid=27

41Hz AMP32 for tweeters
http://shop.41hz.com/shop/item.asp?catid=42&itemid=38


And a couple class D amps for the requisite sub-bass in stereo would be mounted on-box so that I could easily remove the setup for AutoX days. I saw a removeable setup at USACi Finals that used massive quick disconnects:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=263-112

Drivers would be 7" Dayton RS180, 2" enclosed Dayton RS52, 1" Vifa XT25SC. All carry over from past projects, but should do well in this application.

I'm not gonna lie, those are some great links! I've read about the MiniDSP on DIYMA, but the other links could be useful some day.

Thanks Rupert!

If we get a few people pounding away at MiniDSP, we could get some really useful information. Crossover points for great imaging, time align settings, creative mounting locations, power supply necessity, etc.

I might just buy some cheapo Alpine A/B amps and scrap the "build your own T amps" option. Guaranteed quality and less blood loss during toroid winding.

BTW, you rock for maintaining the Audio Directory thread! Good to see my argumentative discussion from a few months ago made your list. :thumbsup:

@Shankenstein Those amps you listed don't look very good. No damping, no proper SNR values, and some real hideous ones for the tiny '32' amp. I'd avoid if you're looking for SQ.

Thanks for the feedback, ft_sjo!

I've always heard that distortion in automobiles, the threshold for audibility is 1% on music and 0.1% on tones.
http://www.bcae1.com/thd.htm

The worst amp is spec'd at < 0.05% (measured at 1000 Hz usually). Most of their stuff stays south of 0.1% at rated, throughout the spectrum, so it shouldn't color the sound in any meaningful way. Even then, the first even harmonic is the dominant one.
http://www.41hz.com/forums/content.p...b-measurements

Cars are pretty squeaky and rattley, so I'll take my chances. Laziness is really the obstacle here.

I was honestly considering the MiniDSP route for my setup, but a full active setup is new territory for me. I have a 3sixty.3 waiting for me to install. I purposely did not get the best (DSP and speakers) at the very beginning since I am learning and gives me ample room to upgrade.

Thanks! I try my best to get the topics that (I think) would be helpful from a core audio perspective. I'm always open to suggestions on things to be added :thumbsup:

@ft_sjo

As stated, I'm in the planning phase and definitely appreciate the input.

What do you think about using a ColdAmp CPS80 DC-DC Supply. It generates +/- 60 Volts with 800W continuous power. There's also plenty of car-specific protection circuitry.
LINK
https://www.coldamp.com/store/media/.../file_2_11.png

Similarly, there is a slightly less expensive (and more local) option from Class D Audio. Their product produces +/- 50 Volts with 500 W continuous power.
LINK
http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog...wer_supply.jpg

With 800 W on tap, there are alot of options for DIY amps. I will be back once I have something worthwhile to post. Lots of chip amps and kits to consider that may have better characteristics than the AMP9 and AMP32.

Thanks for posting the links. I will try to paruse them over the next couple of days. I'm definitely not looking to build my own amps at this time... but the setup you're working on really does appeal to the techno-geek in me, Shankenstein.

The Mini-DSP intrigues me, though I admit that currently the Rockfort Fosgate 3-Sixty-3 is high on my list right now as well and would be the "safer" choice that still gives you plenty of options to play with. My big question about the Mini DSP is what sort of adaptation is necessary for the mobile audio solution where it's going to be subject to significant vibration and other harsh environment factors.

I'm currently working out what sub driver to buy... I think I've pretty much settled on the JL Audio 10W3v3 but trying to decide whether I'm going to get it in 4ohm or 2ohm versions. In the past I've always used dual 4 ohm voice coils wired in parallel so they showed a 2 ohm load. I'm leaning towards the 2 ohm for the reason that it will push a bit more thump for the same power, but that will be amp dependent.

Still haven't finalized my amp options either. I did want to go with one 5 channel amp rather than two separate amps... I was hoping to find something with enough power to safely handle the sub I've chosen, plus still feed 75W or more into the components once they're installed... though if I'm running them without the passive crossovers, do I need as much power going into them to make them sound good. I've been trying to find some individual specs on the power handling to get a line on how to handle the tweeters. Another option that I was interested in was Speaker Level Inputs, so that I could hook it up and get the bass channel done without having to pick up some kind of line output converter... but I'm favoring the Alpine PDX-V9 which would need a LOC to hook up the bass before I get the processor.

If anyone's got some good input on which impedance to go with on the sub driver, I'd like to make the purchase by the end of the week when I get paid. Amp suggestions will also be helpful since I might jump on the right one once I make up my mind.

Sorry about going full retard on your thread. Never again.

As far as adapting MiniDSP to mobile, you'll need:
- a power supply (the picoITX, DC-DC-USB, or MeanWell units will do the job)
- a signal (unbalanced RCAs, balanced speaker-level inputs, or digitally converted coax)
- a case (aluminum project boxes are plentiful on eBay)
- standoffs, screws, soldering iron, heat shrink, etc
- neutral cure, clear RTV silicone. Hold on to yer wobbly bits!

As alluded to in my other thread, unbalanced RCAs are the primary contributors to ground loop noise. Balanced or digital is the way to go.

For the speaker impedance, it's dependent on your amp. The Alpine amp you mentioned is regulated to output the same (ish) power from 2-4 Ohms.

Generally though, higher impedance yields more stability, but has a greater chance of over-voltaging your power supply. Lower impedance yields less stability and has a greater chance of over-currenting your power supply. If you're running 1 sub, go for Dual 2. If you're running 2 subs, run Dual 4. This also gives you the flexibility to drop in a monster mono-block later and run it at 1 ohm.

As far as subs, Tantric Sounds, SoundQubed, Sundown, FI, Ascendant, SSA, etc. Give us a rough budget, power level, SQ.

I'd look for a used Audison Lrx 5.1k - might fit into your budget.

Not to worry about going full retard... you're going my type of retard and I cannot help but learn something from it. I know I'm not ready to go that DIY but it never hurts to learn more... and I appreciate the info on how to adapt the equipment to go mobile.

Driver-wise, I'm going to be using an enclosure I have which is set up for a 10" sub. Airspace is ~.70 cubic ft not including the space the driver would be taking up. I think I have a pretty good mounting depth, ~6.5-7". Budget is going to be about $200 tops. I'm looking to enhance the music, not dominate it with the bass, and I will be feeding it the average sub channel on a 5 channel amp, which looks to be 300-500W RMS range at 2 ohms. On my short list: the JL Audio 10W3V3-2 [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TDCN2Q/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller="]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TDCN2Q/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=[/ame]

Music-wise, my tastes extend from classical type soundtracks (Doctor Who, Final Fantasy), old-school metal (Maiden, Megadeth), progressive stuff (Rush, Queensryche) to the J-Pop techno (Initial D Soundtracks). I currently have my music library on a thumb drive with various sampling rates dependent on who ripped it and the quality of the recording they used. I like the ability to "feel" the music, I was a guitarist in a band when I was younger so I do like to feel the "thud" of the drum hit against my body like I did playing live on stage.

I currently have an Alpine PDX4.100 (basically brand new, I've never hooked power to it) sitting around, but if I was going to go the multiple amp route, I would probably have preferred to run 0 gauge back to the distribution block... That's why I'm preferring to go with a single 5 channel amp with either an AB section and a D section or all Class D on the channels. I guess I could probably run two amps off the 4 gauge run, my chassis ground to the battery is reinforced with a 0 gauge wire. I've actually been interested in the new Rockfort Fosgate Punch P1000X5 amps which seem to have a bunch of neat features including balanced speaker level inputs (so no need for a LOC and should eliminate noise very well). The only thing that makes me hesitate a little would be that I'd potentially have to go down to a 1 ohm load sub to get the maximum (500W RMS @1 ohm) out of the sub channel which is only 300W RMS at 2 ohms http://www.crutchfield.com/p_575P1KX...08#details-tab

I really ought to be doing a lot more reading than I am these days, so I appreciate everyone who is contributing their knowledge and guidance... right now I know enough to be dangerous, but way less than I'd like to be totally comfortable with certain choices. I know that eventually I'll get to a better place with it, I always do, but when you hit a certain point with 12V audio it seems like you're opening Pandora's box and suddenly it becomes very precise and technical, and the learning curve becomes very steep. It always helps to have input, even if it's just a sanity check or a nudge in the right direction.

To everyone who's contributing, thank you.

Sounds like you have enough reasons to change course. The RF amp looks solid and you'll want to drop the impedance low to get the full 500 Wrms out of it.

Sounds like:
Alpine Type-R LINK
Incriminator Lethal Injection LINK
Sundown SA-10 LINK
Skar - VVX LINK
Rockford Fosgate Power - LINK
RE SEX - LINK

Once you get over 200 Wrms or so, it's going to be overwhelming... but all of these have solid tech and will go low.

I may have waited too long... looks like nobody has the Rockfort Fosgate P1000X5 amp in stock. I guess I'll wait a few days and then maybe re-evaluate my plans. I was hoping to buy one today but maybe someone will get them back in stock, though Crutchfield's showing a month to get

Another amp that's caught my eye is the JL Audio XD700/5 it has the balanced differential inputs as well, and the 4 channel section seems to be all the power I'd need.http://www.crutchfield.com/p_136XD70....html?tp=35808. It would mean going back to a 2 ohm setup for the sub, but would 300W RMS be good enough to run the JL Audio 10W3v3-2 driver?

Well... there's a good reason why there hasn't been an update on picking up an amp and a driver... and I still haven't done it yet. Having my amp of choice be unavailable from a trustworthy source when I was ready to buy was the prime reason, but there is more to it than that.

It's mostly due to the fact that I spent the other weekend running the infield section of the F1 track at Indianapolis Motor Speedway at the Miles Ahead Performance Driving School with my father as my birthday present. Yep... my 70 year old father and myself were flinging a JCW Mini Cooper into corners and hitting 100mph+ in the straights directed by the very lovely Pippa Mann herself. I had a blast, and it reawakened my urge to drive at the utter limit on a closed course... something that I'd put aside to be a responsible family man years ago.

The wife has indicated that she would prefer me to find a closed course to "express myself fully behind the wheel" so that I'll slow down a little on the street. And I know that I will find myself in trouble if I don't find a better place to express myself. So the money I had for the amp is potentially "diverted" so I can buy myself a SA2010 helmet for doing track days. However it looks like I've probably got a month and a half to come up with one so that might let me explore a cheaper option as far as the amp and driver go.

Overall I'm not changing my plans, I actually don't intend to regularly track this car, and certainly don't have plans to modify it for racing. It's still my daily driver, so the reasoning behind my audio upgrades is still intact. I'm thinking that I'll find a cheap sports car (like maybe an old Miata) that I can modify as a dedicated track car and leave my daily driver comfortable.

So I may be modifying my plans a little more to fit into the new scheme of things... which will take a bunch of research to find the best way to spend my diminished budget.

Considering that my current drivers (Alpine Type X REF 6.75 SPX17REF component set ) are what are dictating the power needs for my amp and pushing the $500 range, I may actually decide to go with something cheaper that can sound good only getting 50W RMS to it and not needing to push as much power to it. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the technical specs for the drivers themselves on what they need power-wise, everything I've read is assuming that I'm using them passively with the factory crossovers and I haven't found anything that tells me how much power I need to feed to the mid bass or the tweeters when running active. I know that a lot of power would've been converted to heat in the crossovers, so do they actually need 75-100+ Watts RMS thrown at them in an active setup? Unfortunately, the crossovers are broken... and I'm not sure I have all the pieces to fix them even if I thought I could, so I'm basically stuck going active, or ditching them and getting something new. I'd love to just sell them but without the crossovers they're probably not worth that much by themselves.

Hopefully some of you more technical types might help me find some answers... if anyone has any input, it's greatly appreciated.

I wouldn't throw anything less than 100W RMS into a pair of 6.5" woofers. Tweeters probably 50W. You don't have to run the amps flat out, but free of distortion is always good.

Something like a JL 450/4 is a good choice for a 2-way active front end. You can pick them up pretty cheap used. Not a tiny amp, though.

Thanks, this is definitely the type of feedback that I need to hear. Sometimes there is such a vast amount of information out there and it's almost impossible to get it filtered into simple terms. :)

I do have an Alpine PDX-4.100 sitting around that I originally purchased to power these speakers back when I had a separate amp setup for my sub. My chief worry about running two separate amps (one for the drivers and a separate for the sub) is the amperage draw through my 4 gauge system... I would've run 0 gauge to my distribution block if I was planning to go with a multiple amp setup... in hindsight, that would've been the better route to go, but required a bigger outlay for the wiring supplies and more expensive fuse and distribution blocks. That's mostly why I've been focusing on trying to find a 5 channel amp that will suit my needs.

Maybe I just need to look at finding a sub amp that will either work with my existing wiring... or upgrade my wiring to safely handle two amps.

http://www.zukiaudio.net/ look at the eleets 5 channel or the Class D 5 channel. These are awesome SQ amps here!