Will the 2015 get this power boost?
 

There's a thread over in the FR-S section that links to an article in which Tada talks about a coming power boost for the 86:
Likelihood of whatever is decided upon making it to the BRZ? My guess is it's very high. Certainly won't be buying a 2014 now, and might hold off on that C7 I've been speccing....

In the article he said Toyota may go away from Subaru engine. I think they may move away from the partnership

That would be for the next concept FT86. Which you will not see most likely for another 5 years.

I think Subaru could add a turbo or supercharged option for 2015. It just depends on price and demand.

Since this article is from Australia I wonder if they're talking about calendar year 2015, in other words US model year 2016.

Subie has positioned itself as the seller of the premium version of the twins - hard to see them easily giving that up to a more powerful 86/FR-S. Be interesting to see the clauses in their contract for the twins that deals with this, I am sure it's been anticipated...

Doubt they will wait for MY 2016 for this, that would be too long given the well-voiced demand for more power. If they are already testing prototypes they should be good to go in a year.

No, it's a rumor.

I doubt the partnership will desolve after 1 iteration of a vehicle. Subaru manufactures the car. The tooling just to setup manufacturing has to be in the hundreds of millions if not billions. The next powerplant may change but if this car continues it will still be a Toyobaru. For Toyota to walk away from Subaru, a ground up redesign would be likely, then the car could only be the same in name and/or spirit only. IMO the "special hybrid" option sounds a lot like an electric supercharger similar to the one being developed right on this board, same as systems both audi, volvo, and other major mfgs are looking into for singular application as well as twin-charging.

The 2.5l option would be extremely simple for them and IMO the best route. Keeps weight the same, increases torque considerably, and can get the HP a bit higher as well.

This.

With the $$ involved in tooling a factory, I think this is not a 1 shot deal.

It is entirely possible that Toyota could go their own direction with a completley different concept vehicle. I doubt it, but possible. We are talking 5+ years from now.

A lot can happen in 5 years in terms of sales as well. As competition increases and the FT86 platform ages, Subaru may simply not mind focusing their resources on making other cars that will sell in higher volumes if BRZ sales stagnate.

For example Subaru has sold 4700 BRZ's in 2013. They have sold almost 47K Imprezza's.

Toyota would just change the whole design and produce them themselves. And it would have a new name which I'm ok with make my frs rare

There is no replacement for displacement.

blah! Just get the next gen wrx / STI if you really want a more powerful car. Keep the BRZ for rwd hooligan stuff :)

I seriously hope that Scion/Toyota/Subaru does not do this until at least 2017. Most cars undergo major transformations every 4-6 years. The Scion just came out in 2012 and it's still 2013, to have such a drastic measure be taken to increase power during the infancy of this cars being would be a disservice to those that already own the car, in my opinion. For me, personally, I just bought my FRS 2 months ago and I will be irate if this thing gets an extra 50+ HP as soon as next year. For the love of god, a lot of people have a hard time getting an additional 40 HP from the Vortech supercharger kit. Also, by boring out the engine to 2.5L that's going to turn the 53/47 weight ratio into something more along the lines of 58/42. One has to wonder what Toyota plans to do in order to overcome this added weight and balance issue. They already did everything feasible in the 2.0L trim, so maybe they'll just embrace the whole heavier sports car mentality, who knows?

Good for you, bro. Get it over with instead of obsessing about what Subaru comes out in the future.

highly doubt they are going to FI or go larger displacement for the twins. 2015 WRX is coming out next year it would be bad for the sales for the WRX if hp/tq went up significantly.

Lexus coupe shown at the Tokyo motor show? Hybrid Powertrain? Looks a lot like a BRZ body shell.

It just doesn't make sense to increase the power by over 30%.

I think it would be far more likely that they build a slightly larger 370z competitor based off the IS chassis than completely re-doing a car that is widely regarded as one of the best of it's generation. In fact, they've already said that they will release a new Supra-ish concept at the Detroit auto show in a very similar fashion to the annoucement of the FT86 back in the day.

For Toyota, just actually building the 86 caused enough of a ripple effect on their reputation to call it a job well done. Severing ties with their partner (whom they own a large part of) or adding a significant power boost, would essentially be internet fan service imo. The return on investment would be terrible when the realization that only a portion of the people saying "I'de buy one in a second!!!" would actually do it. Also, getting rid of the Boxer engine would go against their entire design philosophy. The boxer was chosen for it's extremely low center of gravity, not because of front/rear weight balance.

I find it interesting how so many people think that this car is underpowered. The last generation of N/A sports car from Toyota was 100hp per liter, with 20HP less, and a 200 lb lighter car. No one complained about it being underpowered, in fact the Celica killed the then reigning production import, the GSR. Okay well in a drag race it was close, and on the road course it was arguably better.

Now here we are with a car that's more fun to drive, has better suspension, weight balance, and is rear wheel drive, and all people can complain about is the supposed lack of power. I'd say that's pretty good for a car under 30k. If you want to drag race get an AWD Turbo, if you want a daily driver with the option for road courses, autocrosses, or mountain roads, the dual mode driving of an NA is really the much better option.

I rather like being able to putz along under 4k RPMs and have a tame comfortable driving experience without the threat of police intervention every time I leave my garage, and then should I need to put some power down off the streets, I have that option. That way I'm not forced into a cost prohibited situation with a vehicle that's grossly overpowered for normal legal driving. Sure, given an unlimited budget I'd pick up some mid-engined 12 cylinder monster that would wrack up the tickets and probably get me killed, but in the real world, 200 HP is plenty to have a great driving experience.

But by all means continue to speculate, now that I've made my peace, I will go back to chillin' with fast drivers and observing people talking about fast cars.

Couldn't agree more. I took out my BRZ this morning just to commute to work (left my snow car in the garage now that the weather has improved) and it instantly put a smile on my face. Not the most powerful car I've ever driven. But definitely the most fun.

The problem with the "more powa" thing is that for a long time there has been a handful of enthusiasts (us) that wanted a cool, lightweight, RWD, sports car that we could afford. Something like an MX-5 but better looking and more practical. We would even say things like "It's okay if it doesn't have a ton of power, just make it fun to drive!" The rest of the enthusiasts were perfectly happy with their WRXs, EVOs, turbo'd Hondas, Mustangs, MS3s, S2000s, 350Zs, etc...

Well Toyota came along, and with the help of Subaru, built a car for those of us who had a dream for an affordable, lightweight, RWD coupe...

Unfortunately, it attracted the attention of all of the "other enthusiasts" who decided that it was a great car... if only it had more power. And unfortunately, those people became opinionated and very vocal about our affordable, lightweight, RWD sports car. Suddenly their WRXs and Evos and whatnot, weren't enough for them, they wanted our car... but more like their car...

Now we got the car we wanted, but there is a downside to every happy ending, and that is that we have to deal with them...

The End.

You're right, I'll rephrase my third and fourth points because I think they are valid information that address your concerns.

3. There have been V8 swaps into the 86 that maintain a weight balance of approximately 56/44 with the OEM configuration being 53/47, that's a 6.0L LS2 I believe. I would not worry about a 2.5L throwing off the weight distribution (and if it did, it would be less than the V8's 56/44 which is still respectable, at most you'd see a 55/45 and likely 54/46 if there's any change at all) but rather any weight added due to changing safety standards and the demand for more luxury equipment (cameras for parking, sensors to do things automatically etc. etc.) or styling revisions.

4. This is all conjecture and rumors, a 2.5L FA block doesn't exist yet (outside Subaru R&D) and it is unlikely that they will go back to an FB or EJ or whatever as Subaru has said that the FA will be their future engine spreading throughout their entire lineup.


Apologies, I find it absurd when consumers think corporations owe them anything beyond what is initially promised and advertised. No auto manufacturer (to my knowledge) has pulled a bait and switch in decades like you proposed, they'll trumpet any upgrades for a good 4-6 months before they hit the showroom.

:cheers:

Thank you. I actually agree with you and I applaud you for taking the high road with your reply. Good point about the power to weight ration in V8 FRS', I didn't know that information.

Much respect to you.

Ricky

I couldn't see this really happening anytime soon, that said i know its subie, but i would love to see a super charger on this over a turbo

The 86 was built to have the lowest engine and center of gravity possible. I think the Subaru boxer engine was a make or break point of this design. At least that's the impression the documentary videos seemed to leave me with. If Toyota had a suitable engine of their own to toss in, they probably would have flown solo.

The thing is, if all Toyota wanted was a boxer engine, they could have gotten Subaru to build them one but still built and assembled the rest of the car in Toyota factories and only released the car as a Toyota. When you watch the Subaru videos you realize that Subaru was doing a lot more then just providing an engine. I doubt the FT86 would have ever happened without the partnership.

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...eated-the-gt86

The 86 would have been built regardless of Subaru, the directive came from Akio Toyoda. No doubt that without Subaru's involvement the car would be VERY different as most articles point to FHI's manufacturing capability as a key part of getting this off the ground, Toyota didn't want to invest in opening a new plant. No argument that Subaru did most of the nitty gritty engineering (suspension refinement, every piece of sheetmetal goes through their machines to their drawings, they chose every nut and bolt on the car)

Would have been cool to see a Mazda collaboration but I have a feeling that a modified I4 from Toyota's current stable would have been more likely (especially given the focus on fuel economy and emissions), maybe even mounted at an angle to reduce the height.

more power? everyone says i want little more power on every cars they've owned. lol

Well said and, in my opinion, you hit the whole issue dead center. The GT86/FR-S/BRZ are perfect for what they are supposed to do. Asking (and getting) more power will also bring more weight, much higher cost and duller handling. The car will become a butter knife (well maybe a steak knife) instead of a scalpel. There are already too many of those on the market. I hope Toyota leaves it alone unless they can squeeze a few more ponies out of the existing drivetrain.

Blah blah blah! There are to many who take themselves so fucin seriously on here!!!!!!!
The following is a post of opinion. I do not assume what Japanese engineers are going to do or should do. I am not going to drop facts
(or are they) just to sound smart.
I LOVE my BRZ. I like shifting, period. I like reving it and listening. I like driving it and not destroying the speed limit. I like the styling. I like the handling. I laugh at V8 swaps. This car has a supernatural following, and is the only sub-30k car that turns heads like a 60k car.
There will be changes, its the progression of an automobile. I feel for people who bought a 2014 BRZ and can't tell its not a 13.
Would I like 20-40 more hp, yes, but my speed would only increase along with my tickets. I would not be able to drive it like I do know. Kudos to the engineers who put the fun back in driving...........

+1 :thumbsup:

I'm not so sure. It probably had a lot more to do with economics and friendships between the companies. It makes more financial sense to partner up than build a whole new plant to build a one-off engine.

Considering Toyota's current lineup is pretty tame (wtfnosupradammit), I bet economics played a HUGE part in the partnership. Now that they've saved all that money by not building a whole new engine, maybe they'll have the cash to spare on Supra prototypes... The new chief said he wants a Supra, so we should be praying to the twin turbo gods that he makes it happen. If it ends up in the GTR price range or lower, it'll be sold out before they even hit showrooms.

Sorry(not really sorry :)), had to tell the truth there.

I agree economics played a huge role. Would Toyota still have built an FT86 without Subaru? Probably, but we will never really know (which is a good thing). The Supra (or whatever they will call it) is a joint venture with BMW. Should be interesting, but I suspect the MSRP to be into the six figure range (the 2014 Nissan GTR now starts at $99K for the base and the Track edition starts around $116K and my guess is that they are hard to find for less than that). Best guess is this joint BMW/Supra car will start in the $120K and higher range. I suspect it will be more supercar than Mustang GT killer.

Bleh. Lexus already has an LFA. I really hope they don't go that route. There are enough bullshit ridiculously expensive supercars out there. Making something in that price range would be better suited to the Lexus marque than Toyota.

I agree there are no need for changes on the current car.

Also don't forget that Toyota had the money to build the car but not the facilities since most of their factories were up or near capacity or at least slotted capacity for newer cars. Subaru on the other hand, had the extra capacity to build a new niche car. Win-win for both teams - or so they thought.

I find it funny that, as mentioned in Everyday Driver review of the FRS, that Toyota almost always has to co-operate with another party to put out a truly memorable sports car.

Rather than funny, I find it historically accurate. Toyota has had a long standing history of cooperating with Yamaha for engine components, going back as far as I know to the early 80's with the 4AGE.

Oh I know about the Yamaha co-operation but when I said with another company, I meant another CAR company.

MR2 = Lotus
FRS = Subaru

Last I checked the Supra and Celica were all in house.

The LFA engine was the pinnacle of Yamaha sound engineering (for a car)... that ballast made the engine SING.