What would you do? Audio discussion.
 

Let me just preface this by saying that I know very little about car audio, but I know a lot about home audio and recently finished my home theater myself and built (from scratch) four custom 15" subwoofers (including designing them, and building the enclosures from birch plywood).

The one thing I have realized is that as good as your speakers are, it is even more important to get proper placement, and EQ to get the most out of them. In my case I am using Audyssey XT32, and REQ measurement software to measure and tweak the room.

My point in all this is that I am somewhat lost with car audio. I have spent some time tweaking the car's EQ in my BRZ, but you can only do so much with weak amps and speakers. The car sound okay, but I would like a little more. Bass is pretty weak and the tweeters seem to distort pretty easy and are not that clear. While I am a basshead with home theater, I am really not one at all for my car and just want something to play clean with a little more punch.

I have been to several local custom audio shops and am even more confused:

Option 1- Shop A recommends buying some good JL Audio 6.5's for the doors and JL tweeters (C5 series) for the dash. They recommend leaving the 3.5 mids in the dash and rear and getting a nice small footprint 4 channel JL amp with new crossovers and power the dash and front 6.5's off the new amp (he would scrap the crappy 2 channel OEM amp. Installed we are looking at over $1300. This place has been around awhile and the consultant I spoke with seemed to know his stuff. He told me to keep costs down a little we could go with C3 series JL speakers. I just think that is a lot for a 4 channel amp, a set of tweeters, and 2 new 6.5's. Install was around $300-400, so I would be paying about $850 or so for the amp and 6.'5's and tweeters.

Option 2- Shop B is recommending two options. The first is replacing the 6.5's and tweeters with Helix speakers. He recommends just getting rid of the 3.5 mids in the dash and then upgrading the rears with some 4" Helix speakers and building a custom 10" Diamond sub. All to be powered off a 5 channel Helix amp. Total cost (all speakers, sub , amp, install, tax, etc) is around $1670. To be honest, this is more than I wanted to spend. I could eliminate the rear speakers and have him use the stock ones and save about $300. I don't know much about Helix gear and Diamond subs and have no idea how this will sound.

Option 3- The other option Shop B is recommending is the OEM + 400 system that integrates quite easily with the BRZ. $1199 for the system and $175 installed (which seems pretty reasonable). On the surface this seems like a lot for a sub, amp, and two tweeters and not replacing any of the other stock speakers. But what I do like about this is the nice integrated sub which allows me to keep most of my already small trunk space intact. Even more, I like the DSP amp that has been tweaked specifically for these speakers and car. While the other systems may have better speakers, this system may actually sound better because it EQ'd and tuned specifically for our cars. OEM + is also coming out with replacement rear and door speakers that I could upgrade to later on...

I still don't know if I want to spend this much. I can get also go to a place like Best Buy and get a cheaper 4/5 channel amp and speakers like option 1 and have them install everything for under $1K easy and probably even add a cheap sub enclosure. I just don't know if I want Best Buy installing my speakers and at that point the OEM + setup is only $400 or so more. I will probably stop in at Best Buy and look around.

Another option is to buy everything online but I am not sure I feel 100% comfortable and knowledgeable enough to install all this myself. This would be the cheapest route and could probably get some good speakers, a 5 channel amp and build my own sub/enclosure for under $800.

What do you guys think? I have read some very impressive reviews on the OEM + system and it seems like a simple and clean solution, but is well over my $800-1000 budget I was originally considering.

I have scoured this forum and it seems like there is little information about simple drop in solutions that sound good. I do think I would have to replace the stock amp in the rear and I also wonder if good 6.5's off an amp would be enough or would an 8-10" sub be better for good bass (but not overwhelming).

Sorry for the long rant...

You'll get opinions both for and against all of your options...only you know what you really want.

Do a bit more digging on the OEM+ system and you'll see that their is a Toyota/Scion parts guy that can get you a system at a discounted price. If you were able to build your own sub cabs, you are over qualified to install the Audio 400+ system :). Save yourself the installation charge and I think you can get this system into your car at the upper range of your budget.

Gary, thanks for your feedback. I did some searching and the OEM + system can be found cheaper online, but only for the FR-S version which has different connectors, configuration and uses a different head unit than the BRZ. $1200 seems to be the going rate for the BRZ.

I think I scored a great deal at Best Buy on a 5 channel Alpine amp. $199 with a coupon I had and it is about $300-400 everywhere else.

I might use this amp, have the installer put in the Helix component speakers and the amp, and then build and install my own custom sub. This should get be close to $1K. But still debating...

Well, I bought this amp at Best Buy for $199 with a coupon I had (it was already on a crazy sale):

http://www.alpine-usa.com/data/produ...es/585_1lg.jpg

http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/mrx-v70/

I called up a good friend of mine who is much more into car audio than I am and he recommended to me in order (based on my price range):
Focal
Hertz
JL Audio

I have heard Focal and really liked them, but the price for the series I was looking at were definitely pushing my budget. I was able to find the JL Audio C5-650 component speakers on a good deal so I jumped on them (nothing like buying things at 2am)...

Here is the JL Audio CS-5 650 set I bought:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/C5-650-JL-AUD...CTPrw~~_12.JPG

For a subwoofer, I explained to my buddy that I was not looking for earthshattering bass, but wanted something to fill in the response curve and was not sure the 6.5 woofers would be enough without distorting. To keep the box small he recommended a shallow 10" sub which would allow me to have a very small footprint box in my trunk that I can build myself out of some MDF I have laying around. He told me to look into Pioneer on a budget, and Amazon had this one cheap (under $70 new) so I bought it (TS-SW251):
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...-SW251_lrg.jpg


So far I have spent just under $600 for everything. I am going to have someone professionally install the amp and speakers, but I should still be under $1K for everything once it is done.

Modest, but should be a nice bump in what I have now without breaking the bank which was what I as looking for.

Um.....What head unit are you using? The stock head unit in the BRZ does not have RCA outputs. You could do a line out converter, but it's so easy to get distortion using that.

EDIT: Scratch that, the amp has speaker level inputs.

I spoke with the installer yesterday at length and he is a really passionate guy and knows his stuff. He recommends just eliminating the front 3.5 midbass driver entirely since it would have to be driven off the crossovers in the HU, and he is concerned that it would be hard to integrate (sound quality wise) with the new 6.5's, tweeter, and sub. Makes total sense and I really do not think I need them since I will now have a dedicated sub and the 6.5's will do a much better job of handling the mids (especially crossed over properly). He also thinks the rears are not worth the hassle of trying to integrate and I tend to agree.

I know most people think more speakers = better, but this is not always the case at all when trying to get the best soundstage.

As for the subwoofer, I spent some time taking measurements last night (I am going to build my own custom enclosure) and I am going to go with a wedge shaped sealed box that will be flush against the back of the rear seats in the trunk. It will be just under .5 cu square ft which Pioneer recommends for my woofer and it will take up minimum space in the rear.

I used baltic birch when I built my home theater subs, and am really thinking I will use the same material on this box vs MDF since baltic birch is much lighter but equally resilient. I will also throw in about a half pound of polyfill, since I have had good luck with it in the past with previous subs (it essentially tricks the sub into thinking it is in a larger box than it is).

I will provide more information as I proceed in case someone else wants to copy my build, the goal is to get the angles just right with the rear seat to maximize every inch of space.

The installer did rave about the OEM + system for our cars. He told me he was very impressed with the system, especially with the integration of the DSP and the tuning that was performed to get the best soundstage possible. So for those of you out there considering it, he is a big fan. That said, for the same cost I can do what I am doing and have enough money to add a DSP to EQ the sound. But he did have me questioning whether or not to just go with the OEM + system...

Oh yeah, the installer is also adding sound deadening material to the doors, and I plan on doing the trunk myself.

Looks like it should be a good setup. The stock speakers really arent too bad if they are amplified. I have a 4 channel alpine running the stock door speakers, and a mono alpine runnign my 10 type S. Sounds good for the $150 price I paid for 2 used amps and sub box (had the type S lying around the house). With a DSP I think I could make it damn good. Im still trying to sort out where to permanently hide these amps... Velcro in the trunk is their current home.

I'll tell you want I'm going to do. I'm putting in a 3-way comp set from PHD, the AF line. These will be run active via a JVC DD head unit, through a JBL MS-8, and powered by PHD amps. I'm running 2 8" subs in the trunk. No rear fill speakers. I plan to make custom dash pods to fit a 4" and tweeter where the stock speakers go, just raised a little to fit the 4" in.

Yeah, considering the OEM + audio system only replaced the tweeters, I think it says a lot about the stock speakers. I wanted to switch out the tweeters and address the crossovers, so it just made sense to get a bump in the 6.5's as well.

Have you thought about putting at least one of your amps (if not both) where the stock amp was? That is what I am thinking for my amp.

This sounds like an awesome setup. Are you going to start a thread on it, or track your install/progress? Very interested in the MS-8 and how you get it integrated. Depending on how happy I am with the upgrade, I may go down that path as well.

I do plan to do a thread on it. It'll be a few months, though, as I'm currently deployed. I had the MS-8 in my previous car and it was fairly straight forward to set up and use. It did take some time and patience to tweak it just right, but it's well worth it.

I have! But I dont own a dremel yet so I cant cut off the old amp's mounting studs. But perhaps if I have the time ill try my have at cutting and fabbing up brackets to mount the amps under the trunk liner. Until then I have actually been looking at mounting them under the "parcel shelf" using some 1/4 plywood in the shed and wrapping it in vinyl.

Thill:

Something missing from all your builds: midrange speakers.

The BRZ/FRS has terrible doors for midrange. 500-4000Hz range, you do not want to be part of those door enclosures.

By the same token, your dashboard sounds like crap, as all of ours do. 4th order high pass filter (24dB/octave) around 500Hz is also something you want for the dashboard.

Your best best for sound is a 3 way setup, door woofers, plus 3 inch plus tweeter. You're better off doing that and going with no rears as opposed to going 2-way up front. I've listened to very nice speakers in a 2 way setup in a FR-S, and I'd say you're significantly better off going 3-way.

If you want a sub, Integrity Concepts is a great deal once they get back on their feet following their move, otherwise, the JL Audio Stealthbox is a nice piece.

MS-8 is a great device, if you don't know how to tune an install. It does a very good job of tuning, and while technically I can do better, the MS-8 will get you 98% of the way there without having to spend hours tuning it.

Otherwise, you'll end up with a Mosconi 6-8, 3Sixty.3 or Arc Audio PS8. Those are all decent devices with their own pros and cons. However, all of those require an RTA to tune. The MS-8 is very easy.

Yeah, too late :) Going the 2 way route and will see what happens. Worse case I add the 3.5's back into the mix, but the installer was concerned about getting these to integrate correctly and told me a good 2 way setup is easier. We will find out..

I was checking out their enclosures and like them, but am building my own custom enclosure that should take up minimal space as well. Should cost me less than $20 for the enclosure since I already have all the tools already and it really just comes down to buying a 4x4 piece of 13 ply baltic birch.

Good to know about the MS-8, I am definitely considering one, but want to see how the new speakers and sub sound first, and give them time to break-in.

Here' a pic of the tweeters I'll be installing. I'm really excited to hear how they sound!

I agree the Integrity Concepts boxes look great. However, shipping is really expensive t the east coast. Luckily another company in Alabama is making one similar, and a little cheaper.
Here's a link to them:

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwo...enclosure.html

I'm going with an 8" enclosure & it's only $219 right now.

Sorry to thread-jack!

Hey, you are not threadjacking, this is good info. If for some reason I am not happy with my custom built enclosure it is good to know about these options.

First things first, Don't care how good the install is, You will rarely get great results without an EQ. This is just a fact. (Disclaimer, my definition of good is very high). Time alignment is key, as you can adjust the phase of the speakers to simulate them being equidistant from you, as they would be in a good home audio setup.

If you can build a great enclosure, go for it. There is one reason I don't: I live in an apartment, and do not have the space for a workshop.

Now as for the two-way setup, you'll end up seeing two effects.
1. Low sound stage: This is where while the high "airy" sound (like cymbal crashes) will come from your windshield, much of the lower sound (saxophone, horns, low guitar (meaning low notes)), will sound like they're coming from lower down. Some people do not care much about this, but it is something that is there.
2. Muddy mid range: The doors, specifically the left door, is not going to be good for the mid range areas. Lower mid range / upper midbass area sound tends to spread differently. As you move to higher frequency, sound gets more directional. This means that since if you look at your left door, you do not have a path to your left ear from the woofer. There is pretty much nothing that can solve this. FYI, given how off axis your left door is, (in most cars) any woofer without a phase plug will not work well in that application period. The C5 does not have a phase plug, meaning the off axis response is likely poor. The few Helix speakers I googled look like nice construction, but again, the lack of a phase plug will be detrimental to what you're trying to do.

http://hybrid-audio.com/imagine/

I'd check those out for your setup. I would not use their Stage III or IV, (higher end) as those lack the phase plug, and will not be as good. The stage V and VI are excellent, and are what I use in my own system. (Excellent off-axis response)

I just include those for a reference, but there are many woofers with decent off axis response, but typically they have to have a phase plug, or you get your left / right difference being huge.

I really appreciate your honesty and insight. I know you are right about this, and my installer was pretty much telling me that, just like home theater, EQ in the car will make all difference. Which is why he likes the OEM + solution. I do agree with you on this and it will be addressed, but it might be a few months since I have other priorities like getting my car paid off. I am going to go over my options with the installer. Are there any particular EQ processing options you recommend on a budget? There are tons of options out there.

Yes, if I did not I would be going with something like a JL Stealth or other custom solution that fits my car. I built all my home theater subs and had fun with it, so I plan on learning and having fun with the car sub. For about $20 or so in wood, if I am not happy, that is about all I am out and can use the driver in a different enclosure.

This is good info. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. Looking at the hybrid speakers (this is the first I have heard of them) and the Imagine series, these are 2 way, correct, not 3 way? None of the installers I spoke with mentioned them, but I will do a little more research on them. I have already purchased the JL's at a very discounted rate, but I may be able to use them in our other car, because off axis is important to me, since I assume as the driver, I would potentially be sitting off-axis....

Thanks, again this is something I will need to consider. I am hoping EQ could assist, but obviously speaker design is essential.

An EQ can help, but you're always better off starting with better off axis response, and fix from there. I didn't keep a screen shot of my car speakers pre and post EQ, but the difference is huge, and I have ~$1400 in speakers in my car.

For EQs, there is the MS-8, Mosconi 6-8, Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 and Arc Audio PS8. Can't help you on budget, because anything cheaper is a waste of money, as you'll just re-buy it again. You want at least 1/3rd octave on every channel.

The Imagine series from Hybrid Audio is only 2 way, but was linking it as that is what you were looking at. The Legatia series has 3 way, but a 3 way setup there costs in the range of ~1000 depending on options.

For reference, my BRZ has L6 in the door, L3v2 and L1v2 in dash. (L6v2 is current model). My rears are L3 (Not l3v2, no phase plug). I also have an L2x used for the mid range to tweeter crossover, so I can use 4 amp channels for the front rather than 6.

FYI, JL makes a nice speaker, but as a driver, you're often off axis in many cars. Some cars are more on axis than others, so depending on vehicle, YMMV. My recommendation with speakers comes specifically with the BRZ location.

One thing I like about Hybrid is that they're very efficient. Often high end speakers require huge amps, those do not. I am running the front stage off of an amp rated at 60x4. (Rockford Fosgate Power T400-4).

.



I as well noticed this enclosure posted on another forum about 2 months ago while doing market research for obvious reasons. While their 10" enclosure size seems to be a good airspace at .72 cu ft, their 8" enclosure appears to be the exact same enclosure with just a different mounting ring which makes it a very large internal volume for most 8" woofers.

Their website says that their 8" enclosure's internal airspace is .69 cu ft. which confirms just a swapping of the mounting ring/face on the 10" enclosure. Link to 8" product: http://www.256motoring.com/index.php/vse-products.html#!/~/product/category=5817112&id=23500659

My question is: If they are planning to release another 24 models in the next 4-6 weeks (according to this article: http://www.12voltnews.com/2013/07/02...ub-enclosures/) that's more than 1 new model released each week, and at that speed I wonder why they can't just make an actual 8" version, with a more proper airspace?

I have no idea what proprietary specialized materials they are using (I would guess an FRP - Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic), how their enclosure's sound, or even how they can realistically research, develop, cast molds, and release a new product model each week while still continuing to manufacture the actual products. And while I can't speak of the quality either, it does seem to me that they are focused more on the quantity of products they can push out, regardless of how well it fits an average 8" woofer's suggested airspace range. Yet they mention that they "incorporate analytical data for lower resonant frequency" and perform "extensive testing of a vehicle’s specific low range resonant frequency". :iono:

The price is great, and they claim to be "far superior to those found anywhere else in the marketplace" but even if I didn't research and develop a competing product and I was just another fellow audio nut, I would probably look the other way based solely on their fancy terminology and low price.

I do think that their incorporated RFID tagging technology could be pretty useful for dealer tracking, but who pays for this extra added tag / feature that is relatively useless to the end user, or is it just further taking away from the overhead cost of building this already inexpensive "far superior" product.

Just some food for thought. Sorry for the continuation of the thread jacking. I'll get back to answering our emails and PM's now. :)

I cannot thank you enough for your insight on this. I did a lot of research on the Hybrid Audio Image series and every review was glowing and impressive. Many head-to-head comparions against the JL Audio C5-650's and it seems they are pretty close, but most people prefer the Imagines.

I then started reading up on the phase plugs and how they affect sound, and I can see why you are recommending them. I reached out to a very respected speaker designer I know from home theater and he basically echoed what you explained and what I read. That they are a good thing if properly implemented and that I should consider them in a car where you are kinda screwed with off-axis response unless you can move the speakers around, which I cannot.

My dilemma.. Through my buddy I got a great deal no a brand new JL Audio C5-650 component set of speakers and they are arriving tomorrow.. I would feel bad not using them and asking him to take them back when he pulled some strings for me, so I checked our 2013 Honda Odyssey and sure enough they should work perfectly. That vehicle has really poor sound (my wife even complains) so I will use them in the van.

So the Hybrid Audio Imagine 6's are ordered and 12velectonics (authorized dealer) is amazing and already shipped them (they will be here Monday). Very excited to get these installed and I still need to lock down EQ...

Cannot thank you enough, I have learned a lot in such a short time about car audio. And yes, they are extremely efficient and should be easy to drive cleanly. I prefer efficient speakers for home theater and it seems the rule applies to car audio.

Will let you know how it works out :)

You made a good choice with Hybrid Audio speakers. I've heard many great reviews on them and have heard the Legatia series, very nice!

Will vouch for the Hybrid drivers, running the L1, L4se in the dash and L6's in the doors.. now they are run in and tuned, haven't heard anything that comes close to the clarity. But this epic sound comes @ a steep price and you have to have the amps to drive them properly.

Also will recommend as others have, get a DSP! Having advanced tuning, time correction, EQ, digital xovers makes all the difference in imaging and sound staging, but takes a lot of time to get the settings right, be prepared to spend a great deal of time in the car with a laptop ;p

Option 2 bro, SQ all the way! :)

Yeah, I won't be taking mine to the level you did with yours (very nice job on the sound system BTW). I also love the color of your car :)

I am going to look into DSP/EQ options and go over them with my installer. Leaning towards an MS-8...

The Imagine series I am buying also are convertible.. Coaxial and component but most people are saying to stay coaxial because the tweeters can get too bright.. I am not sure how I feel about coaxial in this car...

Surprised no ones mentioned the Audison DSP's, like the Bit Ten and the Bit One.

Not a fan of the MS-8, had one in my last SQ car... Could never get the tuning and L7 to sound any good using the auto tune blips and binaural mic. Wouldnt want to install a center channel in the BRZ/86, would have to hack up the dash :(

Do not do Coax. The tweeter will be too recessed in the door. You'd rather bounce the tweet off the windshield than have the left tweeter basically be blocked by the door panel.

Um, because I forgot?

I've heard the MS8 in a SQ competition car. Excellent results there. Any auto-tune device can be finicky to get great results out of, but for an inexperienced tuner, it can be significantly easier.

Alpine Imprint is near useless FYI.

I was thinking the same thing. Component with the phase plugs it is :)

No biggie. Just didn't know if there wasn't the same love for them there was a few years back.

I'm planning a multistage build and the Bit Ten D is one of the first things I'm going to install alone with an Audison Voce amp or two driving the factory speakers. I hear a lot about the new Arc Audio DSP and was wondering if that might not be a better route.

There are pros and cons to the Arc Audio PS8, as there are pros and cons to every DSP.

FYI, Arc Audio PS8 and Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 ([ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rockford-Fosgate-Processor-Integration-Capabilities/dp/B004V9GSTS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375461811&sr=8-1&keywords=3sixty.3"]Amazon.com: Rockford Fosgate 363 Digital Signal Processor with OEM Integration Capabilities: Car Electronics[/ame]) use the same Cirrus Logic DSP with very different firmware and DSP algorithms.

There is no perfect DSP, just many choices and trade offs.

I like this thread.

Is it safe to say that the MS-8 would be the most straightforward solution for a novice to car audio EQ/tuning?

From my experience, my 1st MS-8 died with a 'blue light of death' and had to be replaced within the 1st month. A mate of mine who was competing with this DSP had to bypass and disconnect as the remote on powering the amps was causing a loud popping noise on startup. As mentioned, each will have their pros and cons, and you cant run logic 7 on the MS-8 without a center channel installed, but would be an easy install and tune for a 2 way active setup with your imagines + sub

I am going to need to do some more research into this and probably work closely with my installer. He was not keen on the MS-8 either. Said he has had lots of issues with them. I am not afraid to rollup my sleeves and learn if there is good documentation and support out there. I am using some complex software (REW) on my laptop at home to measure my home theater audio. There was some learning curve but a great deal of support out there.

Another thing I am thinking... Should I have the installer wire up for a potential midrange solution for the midrange speaker in the dash? I have read about several folks adding the Legatia L3v2 midrange to their Imagine 2 ways to get a 3 way setup. I am thinking down the road when I add a DSP, it might be nice to have the option of adding a midrage solution and have the installer wire it up so all I have to do is hook up wires to the speaker and DSP/amp??

im using the alpine DSP - PXA-H800, so far so good, magic box of sparks working its voodoo.. Tuning via Alpine sound manager on the lappy gives you a lot of control over the settings and a half decent GUI to navigate. Got the RUX controller in the glovebox for tuning on the go, but think mounting it below the HU would not only give a physical volume knob within reach and sub control, but more toys to play with on the go.

Research some reviews of all the current DSP's, might be nice to get something with a few extra channels and inputs incase you decide to geek out later down the track