HELP with understanding Brakes upgrade path
 

Ok, I don't know much about the technical side of cars. So i want to understand brakes a little better. Especially since the FR-S seems to have somewhat "mushy" stock brakes.

So let's say that stock braking distance = approximately 120 ft
would the proper brakes upgrade path be...

1) Upgrade Brake PADS (= approx. 105 ft)
2) Upgrade Brake PADS, Brake Lines, and drilled/slotted rotors (= approx. 90 ft)
3) Upgrade Brake system; calipers, lines, rotors, pads, etc. (= approx. 60 ft)

Does this sound about right to you all?

Lets say stock is 120 ft. It would be more like this:

1) Upgrade Brake PADS (= approx. 120 ft)
2) Upgrade Brake PADS, Brake Lines, and drilled/slotted rotors (= approx. 120 ft)
3) Upgrade Brake system; calipers, lines, rotors, pads, etc. (= approx. 120 ft)

Seriously. The tires are the limiting factor when it comes to stopping distance.

People are upgrading their brakes for more heat fade resistance on the track. Sometimes brake feel, and yeah, sometimes looks. You don't gain much if anything in terms of stopping distance.

Even with a big brake kit with fancy monobloc calipers...you don't really reduces stopping distance much. It's to be able to go lap after lap at the track without overheating. At best you'll gain a few feet, maybe more if you've already upgraded your tires.

I have seen BBKs increase stopping distances because they were poorly designed.

- Andy

What do you want to improve? Pedal feel? Fade resistance? Is this a daily driven car? Any track time or auto-x?

- Andy

What happens when you slam on the brakes now? I'll bet your car leaves skid marks. You know what that means? Your brakes are able to completely stop the rotation of the wheels (except for the small amount of rotation that anti-lock brakes allow to maintain directional control), and the friction between the now stationary tires and the road are slowing you down. If your stock brakes can stop the wheels, why would more powerful brakes reduce stopping distance? The only way to do that is to increase the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road, and that's done by going to wider and/or stickier tires, not by brakes.

As Andy said, the benefit from larger brake rotors and bigger calipers is that they the capacity to absorb more heat. So the first time you use them won't be any different, but after you've stood on the brake pedal a couple times in a row, factory brakes will be overheating and loose effectiveness, whereas larger brakes won't. That's why he is asking about how you use it - track or autocross will entail many uses of the brakes in a short time, and will have a benefit. Daily driving or occasionally hooning around, you're not going to do a dozen emergency stops from high speeds in a row.

Andy nailed it. Tire grip is ultimately what is stopping the car. Increase grip and you can shorten stopping distances.

For some basic improvements:
Better pads and fluid are typically the first step toward better heat and fade resistance for spirited driving or track days. Slotted or drilled rotors help this a bit by further by shedding heat better and scraping the pad surface slightly cleaner to prevent glazing.

SS brake lines and a master cylinder brace will help improve feel (firmer pedal and better feedback).

What i'm feeling right now is not that I'm skidding. It's just that when I depress the brake pedal, I feel the car slowing at a pace that's slower, so I feel I have to brake earlier. I would like the proverbial "stop on a dime". I have a decent set of tires. I am running a set of sumitomo HTR Ziii 245/40r18.

For instance, when compared to my sister's totally stock Nissan Cube, when I'm driving, and I press down on the brake pedal, it's almost as if my body is launched forward a little because it brakes so quickly and stops fairly immediately.

Just get a pad with an aggressive initial bite.

It is probably this way from the factory as it's more easy to modulate the brake power...this car was designed with heel and toe in mind.

I couldn't have said it better :thumbsup:

Technically with a lightweight kit like Essex, I would assume the stopping distance would be reduced.

True, but not through "more stopping power."

Honestly, there is plenty to gain from brake upgrades and even better pedal feel is worth something for a street car. Just don't want anyone to think they'll be able to improve stopping distances drastically without changing tires.

- Andy

@CSG Mike and @Racecomp Engineering - What do you guys think would help me with my situation as i described in post #6

As mentioned above, you want brake pads with a higher initial bite. I'd recommend the Carbotech street pads or AutoX pads.

Damn I wish I could use the Thanks button like 20 times on this post...

The Cube's brakes are more boosted, meaning, when you push the pedal, the assist is much more aggressive; the pads are pressed "harder" for a given amount of pedal pressure.

The easiest way to "fix" this is to get a pad with more initial bite. The price of doing this, is that you're going to get more brake dust. Generally speaking, dust is proportional to bite.

The Carbotech pads suggest in post 6 have wheel-friendly brake dust. It's very easy to clean off, but they DO dust a lot.

Carbotech pads in order of increasing bite and dust:

1521
AX6
XP8
XP10
XP12
XP16
XP20

We run XP12 on the CSG BRZ, paired with the AP Racing Sprint kit. When the XP12 lose bedding (happens when we get the pretty warm but not super hot), we swap in 1521 until our next track day.

If you want increased bite, I'd recommend you try the AX6.

I still have the XP12 brand new from CSG. I need to try those out someday..

S2K guys seem to love Carbotech pads

It's funny, but I'm HAPPY the brakes aren't like a Nissan Cube, or Honda Accord, etc. Modulating brakes like that on track SUCKS. Our brakes are pretty linear and easy to modulate, unlike overassisted power brake setups in many other cars.

That higher bite due to pad or overboosted assist doesn't mean you are stopping faster, just that less pedal is needed for a given braking force.

This is perfect information for me. I now have a really educated understanding of it. Thank you everyone who contributed to posting information for me. I really appreciate it!

The XP series are REALLY easy to modulate compared to most high mu pads.

I still prefer metallic pads personally... our Project Mu 999's have arrived :wub:

We were using XP12 because they were readily available at the time.

My own experienced with a couple of these pads:

I went to the XP-10s for a track day, then to 1521s when they started squealing badly on the street.

The XP-10s have great initial bite and great heat-handling capabilities. I loved them on the track. And after a day of hammering them on the track they were great on the street and as quiet as stock. But, since I couldn't get them up to temperature on the street they quickly started squealing.

So the 1521s went on. They have slightly more initial bite than stock and a very natural-feeling ramp-up on the braking force after that. I'm getting a tiny squeak every now and then as I come to a stop, but it's hardly mentionable. And I can get it to stop doing it for a while if I do one hard stop.

I haven't used the AX6, but from what I gather from the CarboTech website, and how I know AutoX drivers drive, it should have a really high initial bite, but will squeal a little on the street.

Draco, PM me your e-mail, and I'll email you OUR set of bedding procedures; they do vary a bit from Carbotechs.

Using our procedure, we're able to eliminate virtually all the noise; you'll get that tiny squeak every now and then, but that's it.

We ran XP10 full time, both street and track, before we put on our BBK.

I am VERY easy on my brakes on the street. I don't think I could keep a set of track pads bedded. When I pulled the XP-10s they looked like they had brake dust building up UNDER them.