Wider wheels: need an alignment?
 

Car is being dropped on eibach sport line springs very soon. I know I need an alignment after the drop but this is my question:
I'm upgrading to a set of 17x9 +44 wheels. Tires will be stock. I want to know if I shoul hold off on the spring and alignment until I get the new rims on or will a wider wheel not effect the alignment/handling of the car?

Any advice is appreciated. Not in a hurry to do the springs if it will benifit to wait

You're putting 215s on 17x9s? That's probably going to affect your handling more than not having an alignment right away.

we recommend any drop or even wheel and tire change to have alignment done. Remember that you are altering the suspension geometry with any of those changes.

How exactly are you altering the suspension geometry (specifically the parts affected by an alignment) by changing wheels or tires?

The ONLY thing that can change with a wheel change is the offset, but that's not something you can change with an alignment so it's irrelevant.

the wheel and tire are extensions of the suspension parts and the actual contact patch connecting car to the road. any changes in offset and tire size will change the handling... If looking at wheels/tires/suspension together, the geometry is changed.. thus alignments are always recommended... Alignments involve toe, camber, and caster. So, when lowering the suspension or even just tire changes, it is better in the long run to have the car alignment done again.

BS. I totally agree with suspension changes, even if you just pulled it apart and put the stock parts back in, but to say you need an alignment because you're running wider tires or a different offset is false.

Out of curiosity, what alignment specs would you set my car to running 225/45/17's on 17x8 +45, and why would you deviate from the factory alignment?

I fully realize that the factory alignment specs aren't the fastest specs around a track, but that doesn't mean you need to adjust based on wheel offset. If you're that concerned about on track performance you need to factor in a lot more data than just width and offset, actual logged data like tire temps across the width of the tire, pressure, etc all come into play.

None of that matters for the average street driver though. The only other time I can see this mattering is if you're setting camber for fender clearance, then you would need the final wheels to get the clearance right.

To answer the OP's question, just get the alignment after the suspension install, changing wheels won't change the alignment at all. A good number of alignment racks require removing the wheels anyway.

If your wheel size and offset and tire size are fairly close to factory, of course then factory alignment settings should be fine.. However, given the variances of widths and tire size deviation from stock, the greater the variance, the greater the need to factor those changes into the alignment process. Especially since you can see on the forum how diverse the sizes go that deviate from factory settings, why would anyone not perform an alignment with wheels and tires to prevent uneven wear?

Its like hub rings, there are people out there who says its not needed... but from a manufacturers side, we recommend them because it is just one less factor to contend with in case there are shaking or vibrations on the car... that being said, as a wheel manufacturer, we always would recommend alignment after wheels and tires are put on to protect the consumer.

Jesus, do you pull the air filter out and say it needs to be replaced when you sell a set of wheels, too?

Better yet, how are you validating the "handling differences" between wheels? The alignment specs are numbers that are going to be identical whether you're on stock wheels or these. So, what, you're going to put a new set of wheels on a car, put it on the rack, verify that the tie rods haven't been touched, pocket $90 and call it a day?

Damn, now that's ballin'.

:popcorn:

So what I'm gathering is that the wheels may affect my handling characteristics but not due to alignment. I think I'll get it aligned w the stock wheels then just put my new ones on. Once I wear through the tires I'll get another alignment as I'll be putting wider rubber on. (215 on a 9" rim is about as stretched as I'd ever want, definitely not about the stance scene.) I appreciate the insight and would like to continue learning more. So any other voices are more than welcome

Don't the 17x9's hit the tie rods at full lock?

??? I hope not. I've seen much crazy fitments than this but maybe somebody can answer that

You are free to do what ever you want on the vehicle. We are not affiliated with any alignment shop to make extra money off anyone. It is just standard protocol as a safety precaution promoted by tire manufacturers and installation shops to provide optimal wear and performance.

As to others thinking its ok not to align the vehicle after changing even just tires, thats their choice. In our experience, we have fitted on slightly wider tires and slightly bigger tires on stock suspension set up without alignment to compensate after. The results were uneven wear on the tires.

As to those implying there is ANY different to your alignment after changing wheels or tires.. I don't even know what to say. There isn't. Period. To suggest it's even possible is crazy. Do you readjust your belt when you put on a different pair of shoes?

I would strongly suggest you check the internet on what is recommended after you change tires... there are plenty of answers. And if you feel you dont need to, its entirely up to you. The issue is that tires wear in conjuntion with the wear on your suspension components. When you are introducing a new tire and new wheel into the equation, the very factor that has resulted in the current set up is changed... Its like wearing shoes. how does an older shoe feel better than old shoes? Because the old shoe has been worn to reflect the walking patterns of the individual... the new shoe has not. But in the case of cars, they dont adjust themselves as with humans... perhaps that is a better comparison...

Tire manufacturers suggest an alignment when tires are replaced after like 60-100k km's, not if you just had an alignment a couple weeks earlier after replacing the suspension.

Unless you're coming up with different alignment specs based on wheel width/offset and tire width there is simply no need for such frequent alignments.

Yes alignments will drift, and after a 3-4 years it's probably smart to have it re-aligned, but the reason is age and km's driven not the fact that new tires/wheels will fit different.

By your logic I should be getting two alignments per year, every time I swap between summer and winter wheels. When I get more competitive with track events I'll definitely get it aligned at the start of every race season, but for the average street driven car that is simply overkill.

Great source you have there. Why not call a few alignment shops and ask around?

Your not gunna fit in the front with 17x9+44 on stock spring size. Even +42 with a 5mm spacer was mad close.

I switched from the stock wheels and tires to 18x9.5 +38 all around with 255/40 front and 265/40 rear.....my alignments still spot on, and handles like a god dang f1 car(exageration).

I'm not going to bother because I know what a camber bolt and tie rod end look like, I know how suspension parts move, and I know changing wheels and tires isn't going to affect them in any way.

I'm going to put my car on a rack, see that adjustable toe is within factory specs, along with caster and camber. Then I'm going to put new wheels and tires on and put it on the rack again. All the numbers are identical! EVERY TIME!

If anyone without something to sell suggests an alignment when you get new tires, it's because they're talking to my mom who gets new tires every 50k miles and is due for an alignment anyway.

yeah but he's running 215s on it.

unless that's what you had, I dunno.

What geometry is being changed by a wheel change, other than possibly track width and scrub?

How does changing wheels and tires changes your toe, camber, and caster?

These are the only reason to consider an alignment when getting new tires.

Exactly. Like replacing your water pump when you replace your timing belt. It's probably working fine, but after 100k, while you're in there for a timing belt it just makes sense.

NCE about his herraflush tire size choice...Im taking offset and wheel clearance in reguards to stock front spring size.

our source is not the internet... we have worked with alignment shops over the past 30 years that do specific work on high performance street and race cars... thats their recommendation...

It may not be your source, but you did encourage the previous poster to look in the Internet for information regarding your recommendations.

Alignments can go out of whack fairly easily... Just because you did one 3 months ago does not mean its still sound... all it takes is a pothole or hitting a curb to do so...

As to recommendations, one of the easier source to help most people find out other than asking alignment shops can find some useful information through tire rack... here is their take( no affliation) Hope the information is helpful to others:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

While it's often referred to simply as an "alignment" or "wheel alignment," it's really complex suspension angles that are being measured and a variety of suspension components that are being adjusted. This makes an alignment an important suspension-tuning tool that greatly influences the operation of the vehicle's tires.

Out-of-alignment conditions occur when the suspension and steering systems are not operating at their desired angles. Out-of-alignment conditions are most often caused by spring sag or suspension wear (ball joints, bushings, etc.) on an older vehicle. They can also be the result of an impact with a pothole or curb, or a change in vehicle ride height (lowered or raised) on any vehicle regardless of age.

Incorrect alignment settings will usually result in more rapid tire wear. Therefore, alignment should be checked whenever new tires or suspension components are installed, and any time unusual tire wear patterns appear. Alignment should also be checked after the vehicle has encountered a major road hazard or curb.

Alignment Ranges

The vehicle manufacturers' alignment specifications usually identify a "preferred" angle for camber, caster and toe (with preferred thrust angle always being zero). The manufacturers also provide the acceptable "minimum" and "maximum" angles for each specification. The minimum and maximum camber and caster specifications typically result in a range that remains within plus or minus 1-degree of the preferred angle.

If for whatever reason your vehicle can't reach within the acceptable range, replacing bent parts or an aftermarket alignment kit will be required. Fortunately there is a kit for almost every popular vehicle due to the needs of body and frame shops doing crash repairs and driving enthusiasts tuning the suspensions on their cars.

Recommendations

An accurate wheel alignment is critical to balance the treadwear and performance a vehicle's tires deliver. Regular wheel alignments will usually save you as much in tire wear as they cost, and should be considered routine, preventative maintenance. Since there are "acceptable" ranges provided in the manufacturer's recommendations, the technician should be encouraged to align the vehicle to the preferred settings and not just within the range.

If you are a reserved driver, aligning your vehicle to the vehicle manufacturer's preferred settings is appropriate.

If you are an assertive driver who enjoys driving hard through the corners and expressway ramps, a performance alignment is appropriate for your car. A performance alignment consists of using the vehicle manufacturer's range of alignment specifications to maximize the tires' performance. A performance alignment calls for the manufacturer's maximum negative camber, maximum positive caster, and preferred toe settings. While remaining within the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations, these alignment settings will maximize tire performance.

If you are a competition driver who frequently runs autocross, track or road race events, you'll typically want the maximum negative camber, maximum positive caster and most aggressive toe settings available from the car and permitted by the competition rules. If the rules permit, aftermarket camber plates and caster adjustments are good investments.

Many of today's alignment machines are equipped with printouts that compare the "before" and "after" alignment angles with the manufacturers' specifications. Requesting a post alignment printout can help you confirm the thoroughness of the alignment technician and preserve a record of your vehicle's intended settings in the case of an encounter with a suspension damaging road hazard.

But it has nothing to do with getting new wheels or tires. Get your car aligned if it is out of alignment, not because you got a new set of donks.

Encouraging others to do their research via the internet as it is probably the easiest thing for the average consumer. However our information is based on our working with alignment shops over the years, contrary to what the poster was insinuating. Thank you.

You have bigger problems than an alignment if you hit a curb.

Please, tell me. How does an alignment go out of whack, when there is zero adjustability in the alignment from the factory, except for rear toe.

You've yet to address my previous post as well.


Nice plagiarism from TireRack by the way. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

Whatever people were insinuating, alignment shops are trying to sell their service. They're going to "recommend" it in every case they can possibly convince someone it makes sense, with facts or otherwise. I don't think you have any mal intent, but in this case I don't think you're giving the best advice, either.

It just doesn't make sense. You aren't defining the timing that would make alignments necessary at all. Every pothole could knock it out of alignment you say. So, instead of every time we get new wheels, should we go back for an alignment every day? What if we don't ever buy new wheels, do we never align the car?

Cars don't often get "knocked" out of alignment. Camber bolts are very unlikely to slip (plus we don't even have them), toe couldn't possibly slip and we don't have adjustable caster. A bad alignment is almost always the result of an accident or just general fatigue (stretching, deflection, whateve) in the parts over a long period of time.

Educate yourselves, people. If it's been a while, if you've had the struts off for some reason and might not have put them back exactly the same, if you've lowered your car or if you want better performance (and understand what alignment specs you want), have your car aligned. But don't get talked in to spending the time and money for the wrong reasons.

No problems here. Again, people do things differently and can decide what they want to do. Thank you.

Might as well just tell people to get an alignment with every oil change then... or how about with every tank of gas?

You guys do realize that if you have any experience in the automotive technology field, the safety protocols they teach is that an alignment is not required of course but highly recommended after tire change. Understandable why people think that a simple wheel change wont do anything to the suspension geometry because you're not touching the "suspension parts".

good one! :) :thumbup: new tires would be enough ;)

Thank you commenting without seeing my post that shows my reference to Tire rack as a source :) Appreciate it.

This whole thread started with the OP asking if he NEEDED an alignment after replacing wheels/tires, or if he got one after replacing his suspension parts and got new wheels a few weeks later if it would still be ok.

As a couple people (myself included) have already stated, if you haven't had alignment in years or 50k miles (80k km's), then you're due for one, but just the action of changing wheels/tires does not automatically mean you need an alignment. Further to that, with almost no adjustment from the factory, what exactly is an alignment going to do on these cars? The only thing that can be adjusted without buying aftermarket parts is front and rear toe.

But you said when you change wheels or tires you need an alignment... :D

I understand what the OP was asking (not meaning to continue the threadjack) and i also understand what you're saying. Yes for the majority of people an alignment is not required at all after a simple tire change. What the purpose of my post was to point out the fact that it actually is a safety protocol that is taught in the beginning level of automotive tech. People who get the recommendation to get alignment after tire change might think they are just trying to scam money out of customers when in reality its a safety thing. Believe it or not, there are cases where brand new tires wear our abnormally fast because of misalignment after a simple tire change. Just stating the fact. :thanks:

Yes. and we still believe that to be the case... If you review the original question... OP indicated if he should just wait for suspension drop along with tires and wheels altogether to do the alignment. As he is already deviating from factory settings, it is better to recommend him to do suspension drop and new wheels and tires together and then alignment as an optimal recommendation. what many are saying is to do the alignment with suspension only and it wouldnt matter with new wheels and tires... While it may not be mandatory, we recommend doing alignment after all is done. As to just changing tires, it is indeed industry protocol to recommend alignment after swap to new tires... and we still stand behind it...Thats simply because from a manufacturers perspective, it is always better to provide preventative advice rather than the possibility of uneven wear further down the road. And if there are individuals who think it is overkill, so be it. However, overkill might be the difference between having to prematurely buy a new set of tires and lightening up your wallet..