Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   FR-S / BRZ vs.... (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4164)

Pakjk89 03-12-2012 10:55 PM
BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI
 
More than the driving dynamics, I am thinking the engines were somewhat comparable. Besides the obvious (vtec vs NA) Power figures are almost spot on (last gen civic si). Anyone car to speculate if the engine will act similarly because of this?

NESW20 03-12-2012 11:14 PM
uhh, vtec is na...

Pakjk89 03-12-2012 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NESW20 (Post 154717)
uhh, vtec is na...
Yeah but aren't their slight differences between vtec and a normal NA?

serialk11r 03-12-2012 11:31 PM
I don't think there's a such thing as a "normal" NA...VTEC is just a particular variable valve actuation system.
Anyways, the Civic is probably a bit stronger below 3000rpm because of VTEC, the FA20 has pretty crappy low end torque because it only has cam phasing, but the Civic weighs more and has FWD.

TheBoogieBot 03-12-2012 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pakjk89 (Post 154725)
Yeah but aren't their slight differences between vtec and a normal NA?
VTEC is just the way the valves work. Toyota and pretty much every auto maker these days makes their own version of VTEC. They do use VTEC on turbo cars also though.

As for your other question I'd say the Civic SI would be slightly slower then the FRS because the weight of the scion is less.

NESW20 03-12-2012 11:33 PM
different cam profile. not enough to warrant a new category of n/a.

back to topic, i think both cars will be a lot of fun and drive quite well. the civic is going to be more practical for carrying people (especially if you get the sedan) and the K20 responds very well to mods. IMO, you can't go wrong with either car.

GT 03-12-2012 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pakjk89 (Post 154725)
Yeah but aren't their slight differences between vtec and a normal NA?
vtec stands for Variable Valve Timing Engine Control. Its the timing for the cams of the engine which can can SOHC or DOHC (single or double).

EDIT: replied too late lol

Dark 03-13-2012 12:14 AM
Last generation Si has 197hp and 140lb.ft of torque, and it does 6.7sec about the same as FR-S/BRZ 0-62 in 6.9sec. The new generation is 200hp and 170lb.ft of torque. It's faster than the last gen and FR-S/BRZ straight-line( if that's all you care). It will probably be faster than FR-S at the track with summer tire package.

serialk11r 03-13-2012 12:16 AM
Dark I think you should hold off on that conclusion until independent tests are done, there are quite a few factors in the BRZ/FRS's favor such as ~6% less weight, RWD, not to mention that the gears seem too short to hit 60, which means the acceleration under 60 will actually feel stronger...The ft-lb number doesn't mean squat, what's important is that the Hondas don't have a torque dead zone below 3000 while the BRZ does, but a mild launch will take care of that disadvantage.

tranzformer 03-13-2012 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NESW20 (Post 154717)
uhh, vtec is na...
"Yo VTEC just kicked in!"

Dark 03-13-2012 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 154763)
Dark I think you should hold off on that conclusion until independent tests are done, there are quite a few factors in the BRZ/FRS's favor such as ~6% less weight, RWD, not to mention that the gears seem too short to hit 60, which means the acceleration under 60 will actually feel stronger...The ft-lb number doesn't mean squat, what's important is that the Hondas don't have a torque dead zone below 3000 while the BRZ does, but a mild launch will take care of that disadvantage.
That's why I said "probably". However, this generation Si really produces more power than the old one. It has grown a bit though.

serialk11r 03-13-2012 12:32 AM
Oh snap I just realized the Si loses breath pretty fast at the top of its rev range (200hp at 7000...wtf?), so its off the line acceleration is very high. I guess it's probably a close call then.

Maxim 03-13-2012 01:19 AM
Based on the nearly 200lb weight difference between the cars, and the fact that the BRZ/FR-S is RWD and will actually put the power down in 1st gear, I'd say no contest. BRZ/FR-S will probably be marginally faster in every respect except maybe top-gear acceleration. It will certainly be faster on a track, especially if you put the same tires on both cars.

On a prepared drag-strip, they'll likely be very close, but in real world conditions, where traction is more limited and road conditions aren't perfect, the RWD layout is going to give a massive advantage to the BRZ/FR-S off the line. I've got a high-powered FWD car....launching it is a huge pain in the ass.

Capt Canuck 03-13-2012 01:26 AM
I guess we'll see in 2013 Lightning Laps how it does in comparison:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...1-class-page-3

Obviously different weather and drivers skewer any real direct comparison, but be interesting to see nevertheless.

Exage 03-13-2012 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 154776)
Oh snap I just realized the Si loses breath pretty fast at the top of its rev range (200hp at 7000...wtf?), so its off the line acceleration is very high. I guess it's probably a close call then.
No not the K24Z7, the K20Z3. The K24 requires a light to tell you that it switched cams...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoogieBot (Post 154733)
VTEC is just the way the valves work. Toyota and pretty much every auto maker these days makes their own version of VTEC. They do use VTEC on turbo cars also though.
Not really. VTEC in the tradition sense is a cam-switching system. VVT is a cam-phasing system.

To put it very simply; VVT was widely adopted by the automotive industry. Engines produced today without a intelligent VVT system are stone age basically (I don't know if there are any). An intelligent VVT system is included with VTEC engines as current i-VTEC.

Most VTEC cam switching was not as widely adopted. Toyotas' 2ZZ-GE is the only Toyota engine to mimic the VTEC system with the single cam swap VVTL-i. Many manufactures are looking into variable that control valve lift variably rather than a cam switch. And many didn't even explore a cam switch system in it's prime.

serialk11r 03-13-2012 01:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 154809)
No not the K24Z7, the K20Z3. The K24 requires a light to tell you that it switched cams...
I assumed he was talking about the K24 Civic, because it's most fair to compare new cars afterall...the old Civic would get smoked as it does not have as great of a low end torque advantage. Well not exactly, it'd still be close.

Mitch 03-13-2012 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 154809)
No not the K24Z7, the K20Z3. The K24 requires a light to tell you that it switched cams...
The k20z3 vtec isn't that great either. They downtuned the engine just prior to the cam switchover so that it would have an artificial "kick". The sound it makes when it switches over is nice though.

Rampage 03-13-2012 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxim (Post 154804)
Based on the nearly 200lb weight difference between the cars, and the fact that the BRZ/FR-S is RWD and will actually put the power down in 1st gear, I'd say no contest. BRZ/FR-S will probably be marginally faster in every respect except maybe top-gear acceleration. It will certainly be faster on a track, especially if you put the same tires on both cars.

On a prepared drag-strip, they'll likely be very close, but in real world conditions, where traction is more limited and road conditions aren't perfect, the RWD layout is going to give a massive advantage to the BRZ/FR-S off the line. I've got a high-powered FWD car....launching it is a huge pain in the ass.
If by "track" you mean Drag Strip, Auto X or Drifting then you are right. The BRZ.FR-S will have a RWD advantage. However, for everyday driving and/or Road race track use or time trials there will be no such advantage. For realitively low horsepower cars (under approximately 300HP) FWD is just as viable as RWD. As evidence I offer World GT racing, Continental Tire racing, British Touring Car Championship and Grand AM ST racing. In each case FWD won their respective Championships.

For everyday driving, for the average or slightly above average driver, FWD is superior due to better all weather traction.

I grew up and learned to drive in a time when the only front wheel drive cars were "Elder"ados. Toronados and some "quirky" foreign cars. I had nothing but contempt for FWD "performance" cars through much of my life. That changed when I drove a Scirroco and owned a Integra GSR. I still prefer RWD in my sporty cars but there is no arguing that FWD makes more sense for a street car than RWD above the snowbelt. Can you get through a winter with RWD? Sure. I did it for over 30 years. But it is easier if you own a FWD for those really bad days.

The Civic is a solid, direct competitior to the FT86 models for most American drivers IMO. Even the ones that want a "sporty" car.

SkullWorks 03-13-2012 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 154809)
No not the K24Z7, the K20Z3. The K24 requires a light to tell you that it switched cams...



Not really. VTEC in the tradition sense is a cam-switching system. VVT is a cam-phasing system.

To put it very simply; VVT was widely adopted by the automotive industry. Engines produced today without a intelligent VVT system are stone age basically (I don't know if there are any). An intelligent VVT system is included with VTEC engines as current i-VTEC.

Most VTEC cam switching was not as widely adopted. Toyotas' 2ZZ-GE is the only Toyota engine to mimic the VTEC system with the single cam swap VVTL-i. Many manufactures are looking into variable that control valve lift variably rather than a cam switch. And many didn't even explore a cam switch system in it's prime.


I think you missed some of the systems that came out that weren't as widely used as Vtec, for instance the nissan NEO-VVL (Nissan Ecology Oriented Variable Valve Lift) Subaru had some dual pattern cam system that opened one valve before the other then locked both together...i-AVLS maybe.....I'm too lazy to look.

Did you know there was an 8 injector 1.6l four cylinder from nissan that was knocking on the door to 9K rpm and made 200 HP? they out Vtec'd honda bro:word:

NOW throttle bodies are becoming obsolete in the wake of cams that are so variable in lift duration and LSA that they are throttle controlled and the TB is only used for IDLE air control and engine deceleration...BMW, Nissan, Toyota, not to mention Ferrari, have variable height and duration systems (i'm sure there are others these are the only ones i've looked at enough to know for sure what is going on as far as valve event)

xrs 03-13-2012 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 154809)
No not the K24Z7, the K20Z3. The K24 requires a light to tell you that it switched cams...



Not really. VTEC in the tradition sense is a cam-switching system. VVT is a cam-phasing system.

To put it very simply; VVT was widely adopted by the automotive industry. Engines produced today without a intelligent VVT system are stone age basically (I don't know if there are any). An intelligent VVT system is included with VTEC engines as current i-VTEC.

Most VTEC cam switching was not as widely adopted. Toyotas' 2ZZ-GE is the only Toyota engine to mimic the VTEC system with the single cam swap VVTL-i. Many manufactures are looking into variable that control valve lift variably rather than a cam switch. And many didn't even explore a cam switch system in it's prime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullWorks (Post 154999)
I think you missed some of the systems that came out that weren't as widely used as Vtec, for instance the nissan NEO-VVL (Nissan Ecology Oriented Variable Valve Lift) Subaru had some dual pattern cam system that opened one valve before the other then locked both together...i-AVLS maybe.....I'm too lazy to look.

Did you know there was an 8 injector 1.6l four cylinder from nissan that was knocking on the door to 9K rpm and made 200 HP? they out Vtec'd honda bro:word:

NOW throttle bodies are becoming obsolete in the wake of cams that are so variable in lift duration and LSA that they are throttle controlled and the TB is only used for IDLE air control and engine deceleration...BMW, Nissan, Toyota, not to mention Ferrari, have variable height and duration systems (i'm sure there are others these are the only ones i've looked at enough to know for sure what is going on as far as valve event)
As always, mitsubishi's MIVEC system is always forgotten. The earlier MIVEC systems were pretty much a direct clone of the vtech system. Never made it to the U.S. of course and woulda given Honda a run for their money. They axed it before it made any global headway in favor of TURBO!!!

serialk11r 03-13-2012 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullWorks (Post 154999)
NOW throttle bodies are becoming obsolete in the wake of cams that are so variable in lift duration and LSA that they are throttle controlled and the TB is only used for IDLE air control and engine deceleration...BMW, Nissan, Toyota, not to mention Ferrari, have variable height and duration systems (i'm sure there are others these are the only ones i've looked at enough to know for sure what is going on as far as valve event)
True, but cost/reliability will delay the adoption of these systems in favor of easier ways to improve economy. Toyota didn't want to use variable lift on the LFA for example.

Exage 03-13-2012 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullWorks (Post 154999)
I think you missed some of the systems that came out that weren't as widely used as Vtec
I kept it basic and brief; for the sake of posting without

A) Confusing members, easy to distinguish what is VTEC and VVT. Verses something like MIVEC;) and Double-VANOS.

or

B) a length of off-topic discussion

You are correct. i-AVLS is similar to VTEC-E, in which number of valves actuated is decreased at low rpm. While the system is similar, its application to engine performance [fuel economy/drivability] is on a much different note.


Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 154817)
I assumed he was talking about the K24 Civic, because it's most fair to compare new cars afterall...the old Civic would get smoked as it does not have as great of a low end torque advantage. Well not exactly, it'd still be close.
Well you can look at it two ways. It makes sense considering sale period. When comparing engine/drivetrain I tend to to make leeway on this in favour of something more precise [Displacement, Gear Ratios etc].

I got into pissing match once that engine for engine the 2ZZ-GE shouldn't be compared to a B18C1 or B18C5, but rather a K20A2. [Sarcastic:clap:Clap]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch (Post 154914)
The k20z3 vtec isn't that great either. They downtuned the engine just prior to the cam switchover so that it would have an artificial "kick". The sound it makes when it switches over is nice though.
It's actually better to have the switch point lower, the consequence is less kick. Power is accessible towards the end of the midrange. So I respect your opinion Mitch that it's detuned (with you owning a 8th Gen Si), however I believe it's just less abrupt then the past non cam-phasing Honda engines (B series).

I don't land on my high cam even with redline shifts because it's set [stock] at a silly 6700rpm. The tuners that use the Apexi-PFC always decrease it to 5800-6200rpm on this engine, trading the "kick" for better performance and land on upshift. It gives a hell of jolt and noise in 1st and 2nd stock though.

________________

And that's all the off topic from me today...

Sasquachulator 03-13-2012 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 155328)
I kept it basic and brief; for the sake of posting without

A) Confusing members, easy to distinguish what is VTEC and VVT. Verses something like MIVEC;) and Double-VANOS.

or

B) a length of off-topic discussion

You are correct. i-AVLS is similar to VTEC-E, in which number of valves actuated is decreased at low rpm. While the system is similar, its application to engine performance [fuel economy/drivability] is on a much different note.




Well you can look at it two ways. It makes sense considering sale period. When comparing engine/drivetrain I tend to to make leeway on this in favour of something more precise [Displacement, Gear Ratios etc].

I got into pissing match once that engine for engine the 2ZZ-GE shouldn't be compared to a B18C1 or B18C5, but rather a K20A2. [Sarcastic:clap:Clap]



It's actually better to have the switch point lower, the consequence is less kick. Power is accessible towards the end of the midrange. So I respect your opinion Mitch that it's detuned (with you owning a 8th Gen Si), however I believe it's just less abrupt then the past non cam-phasing Honda engines (B series).

I don't land on my high cam even with redline shifts because it's set [stock] at a silly 6700rpm. The tuners that use the Apexi-PFC always decrease it to 5800-6200rpm on this engine, trading the "kick" for better performance and land on upshift. It gives a hell of jolt and noise in 1st and 2nd stock though.

________________

And that's all the off topic from me today...
Intake + 2zzGE = NOISE!!!!

koyv90 03-13-2012 11:10 PM
2007 civic si beat a honda s2000 so idk be close??????? At least when Honda had those pro drivers play with the new civic si vs honda s2000, 350z, and a rsx.

serialk11r 03-13-2012 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by koyv90 (Post 155459)
2007 civic si beat a honda s2000 so idk be close??????? At least when Honda had those pro drivers play with the new civic si vs honda s2000, 350z, and a rsx.
Are you sure it was an Si? Civic Type Rs had around S2000 power, so that's possible, Si is a bit short on power, I have a hard time believing this.

koyv90 03-13-2012 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 155464)
Are you sure it was an Si? Civic Type Rs had around S2000 power, so that's possible, Si is a bit short on power, I have a hard time believing this.
Oh shit! it was a type r my bad!! i forgot about that.

Capt Canuck 03-13-2012 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by koyv90 (Post 155459)
2007 civic si beat a honda s2000 so idk be close??????? At least when Honda had those pro drivers play with the new civic si vs honda s2000, 350z, and a rsx.
That was the new -at the time- JDM Honda Civic TypeR (FD2) that you are thinking of:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4o...-nsx-350z_auto
Couldn't find it on youtube :-s

7thgear 03-14-2012 12:02 AM
while best motoring is probably the.. best motoring video series out there, i would take their "conclusions" with a bag servering of salt.

SUB-FT86 03-14-2012 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 154731)
I don't think there's a such thing as a "normal" NA...VTEC is just a particular variable valve actuation system.
Anyways, the Civic is probably a bit stronger below 3000rpm because of VTEC, the FA20 has pretty crappy low end torque because it only has cam phasing, but the Civic weighs more and has FWD.
I wouldn't say Vtec is the only reason it's stronger if we are talking about the K24 in the 2012 model?

SUB-FT86 03-14-2012 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxim (Post 154804)
Based on the nearly 200lb weight difference between the cars, and the fact that the BRZ/FR-S is RWD and will actually put the power down in 1st gear, I'd say no contest. BRZ/FR-S will probably be marginally faster in every respect except maybe top-gear acceleration. It will certainly be faster on a track, especially if you put the same tires on both cars.

On a prepared drag-strip, they'll likely be very close, but in real world conditions, where traction is more limited and road conditions aren't perfect, the RWD layout is going to give a massive advantage to the BRZ/FR-S off the line. I've got a high-powered FWD car....launching it is a huge pain in the ass.
The difference is really 100 lbs since the FR-S is closer to 2,760 lbs. And FWD has less drivetrain losses.

chulooz 03-14-2012 09:52 AM
Stopped reading at " (vtec vs NA)" LOL

Traction is by far the biggest difference in these layouts and effects the engines needs.

SUB-FT86 03-14-2012 09:59 AM
I honestly think the closest competitor to the FRS on the market is the dearly departed RX8 and the Si is a close second. If Mazda didn't offer that hideous back door which made the car look longer it would've been a bit closer to the weight of the FRS by at least 100 lbs in base configuration. It would've been more smaller and agile looking with a even better P2W ratio that would've rivaled a S2000 much better with two extra back seats.

chulooz 03-14-2012 10:02 AM
Agreed with the rx8 in first place, but i think the miata would be the second. RWD is critical.

SUB-FT86 03-14-2012 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chulooz (Post 155701)
Agreed with the rx8 in first place, but i think the miata would be the second. RWD is critical.
I know what you mean but a lot of people is going to say roadster vs coupe, and 2 seater vs 4 seater. Back in the days wasn't it the AE86 vs a Civic or Integra from Honda?

Mitch 03-14-2012 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exage (Post 155328)
It's actually better to have the switch point lower, the consequence is less kick. Power is accessible towards the end of the midrange. So I respect your opinion Mitch that it's detuned (with you owning a 8th Gen Si), however I believe it's just less abrupt then the past non cam-phasing Honda engines (B series).

I don't land on my high cam even with redline shifts because it's set [stock] at a silly 6700rpm. The tuners that use the Apexi-PFC always decrease it to 5800-6200rpm on this engine, trading the "kick" for better performance and land on upshift. It gives a hell of jolt and noise in 1st and 2nd stock though.

________________

And that's all the off topic from me today...
I'm sorry, what I mean is that there is a flatspot in the torque curve of a stock k20z3 in the 500rpm leading up to the switchover. When people software tuned their otherwise stock engines, they saw the torque curve smooth out almost completely during the transition. The conclusion of which is that Honda purposefully detuned the engine in the few hundred rpm leading up to the switchover to provide the "vtec kick" that people were expecting.

Capt Canuck 03-14-2012 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 155508)
while best motoring is probably the.. best motoring video series out there, i would take their "conclusions" with a bag servering of salt.
Oh sure they're just a bunch of guys hooning around for kicks. It is definitely entertainment value 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I wouldn't put any stock into their results either.

statuskuo 03-14-2012 02:26 PM
So now here's my question (I know this is a rough comparison in terms of differences in vehicles):

Say you can get a Civic Si for 23k out the door vs. BR-Z 28k out the door

Obivously there will be some trim differences but seeing as the Si is older and the BR-Z is newer and going for MSRP - lets say they are both fully decked out - is the BR-Z worth the X amount over the Si? (anywhere from 3-5k more?)

Capt Canuck 03-14-2012 02:43 PM
^That is the question for every last comparison about anything ever.
Is the BRZ 'worth it' compared to what you or me currently drive or something else?
If you can pro/con it in favour of the BRZ for what you want out of the car, then the answer is yes. It is a subjective exercise which will be different for everyone of us.

serialk11r 03-14-2012 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 155674)
I wouldn't say Vtec is the only reason it's stronger if we are talking about the K24 in the 2012 model?
It would be the main reason for the K20 Civics, the K24 on the other hand is much more low end torque oriented which would be the main reason.

statuskuo 03-14-2012 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Canuck (Post 155931)
^That is the question for every last comparison about anything ever.
Is the BRZ 'worth it' compared to what you or me currently drive or something else?
If you can pro/con it in favour of the BRZ for what you want out of the car, then the answer is yes. It is a subjective exercise which will be different for everyone of us.
Yes! I agree - but I was just looking for some of your opinions - since opinions are subjective anyways. Like for you as an example - would you say its worth a 5k difference? (and I'm not looking to plug holes in anyones 'arguements' or reasonings - im just looking for another opinion)

Thanks!


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