What can the BRZ/86 outhandle?
 

People are saying that even hot FWD hatches like the Golf GTI, Scirocco, Mazdaspeed 3 can outhandle a BRZ/86. I completely disagree. How can a 1500kg FWD outhandle a 1200kg RWD?

What cars in general can the twins outhandle? The WRX? Integra Type R? etc etc

Nash/Rambler Metro.
Chevy Vega
Pinto
Yugo




You really want an exhaustive list?

If people are claiming that, there is only 1 reason why it may be true. Tires.

Keep in mind, in factory form, these things have 215 width Prius tires designed for economy, not grip. Put a proper set of tires on the FRS/BRZ and it will drive circles around most cars on the market (handling wise).

Yes that would be awesome :) That is the purpose of this thread

Well we know that the FRS and BRZ handles as well as a Porsche Cayman. Pretty good place to start.

Kind of thinking that an early Fiesta or Dodge Omni could hand us asses though.
Mid engine Le Car would whomp.

"people" say things from their own prospective all the time, hence critics and journalists are opinion writers. I think if you categorize cars in different aspects, and label your self where you fit in those categories, other opinions start to not matter so much.

Fun factor - What is fun to you? Top Speed, Acceleration, Cornering, Drifting, Looks, Response, etc.

Performance factor - Do you look for specific numbers? Track time, 0-60 time, 1/4 mile time, Auto-X classification, lateral G force, etc.

Bang for your Buck factor - Do you think this car has the best bang for your buck as a sports car/DD? - Fuel economy, performance to cost ratio, resell value, etc.

I'm assuming "outhandle" meaning those cars you listed had faster track times than the 86. Hence these "people" are focused on performance factors and negating the fun factor. Although "fun" is a very subjective feeling, I think a majority of car enthusiasts would agree that an FR car is usually more "fun" than FF cars.

If shaving seconds off the track time is your goal, a used Corvette Z06 and $10,000 will net you far better lap times than a brand new stock 86.

I think it would be easier and quicker to make list of cars that the FRS can't out handle ;)

Is it just me or ur friend mistaken the word handling for performance? :bonk:

I think it depends on the setting, no?

If we're talking short track with lots of turns and no real "open" straights it'll beat a lot of cars. Like a tight autoX course. If there is any sort of straight that allows you to reach some serious speed there's no way it'll keep up.

Tires breh.

In all honesty you can make all of those hot hatches you mentioned go really fast at autoX or the track. But they all are harsh on edge and don't like to be driven 10/10ths, that's the the FR-S is better. FR-S just marginally faster, but way more fun in the way it goes about it.

Switching the tires allowed it to pull faster lap times than a WRX and Mazdaspeed 3 here: http://www.roadandtrack.com/special-...transformation

Edmunds did a test with new wheels which resulted in a dramatic increase in speed, plus pulling 1g on the skidpad. If you check their other track tests, you'll see that is on par with or better than some seriously impressive cars like the R8 or Panamera GTS. http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...rack-test.html

how about lets look at slalom times and Gs

Stock for stock an MS3 is faster around the track in the handles of a capable driver. However on a track, the 86 is easier to drive close to the edge.
My MS3 got twitchy on the very edge, lots of torque steer made it interesting to get on the gas coming off the apex. The high CG and the sitting position in it made it feel like you are getting tossed around a little more in the factory seats, but that car stuck to the road like on rails with the factory Dunlops.

My old Camaro SS had you sitting a few inches off the ground with 265 width summer tires, I'm sure the numbers were impressive on a skid pad with the sticky tires I had, but the weight and power made it much harder to drive quickly through a corner.

Outhandle is subjective, unless you have a particular test to perform on all vehicles (ie slalom or skid pad).

I thought the biggest eye opener was that test on a track against a WRX and Mazda 3 MPS where the 86 was the slowest. Then they fitted it with tyres of a similar spec to the other 2 cars and it was the quickest.

That said it all.

First you have to start with the definition of "handling", as it's a subjective word. It could mean any number of things, including peak lateral grip, chassis balance, body roll and composure, damping, mid-corner adjustability, turn-in, steering response, feedback, etc.

A lot of people simply look at lateral grip (i.e., speed through corners) and label that as handling, which I don't agree with. To me, handling encompasses all those things and not just peak lateral grip.

Now that you know my definition of handling, I can tell you that the GTI is not even in the same league as the FR-S in terms of handling. I own both at the moment and have pushed them pretty hard (backroads, autocross, streets, etc.). After spending a week driving the FR-S, I have to force myself to dial it back in corners when switching to my GTI, otherwise I find myself overdriving it.

FWIW I've also owned an STI hatch and the FR-S handles much better than that as well, especially on comparable tires. In my opinion, it'll be difficult to find any hot hatches on the market that will outhandle a purpose-built sports car like an FR-S.

The Twins handle better than 99% of the cars sold today. If it doesn't put up "numbers" as well as some it's because of the tires. The car's entire structure is built around making it handle well, something that cannot be said for anything else that costs under $100k (Corvette, Cayman & Evora being the only exceptions).

My reaction to this thread

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/image...ine=1368338746

I get all my facts from initial D so if the orginal hachi can beat it on the touge then I'm sure the new one will. Well the suspension has to be "quake proof" like the movie and if you blow your engine you have to put in a turbo one.

having driven more than a few different cars in my day (I work as a valet as a side job). Let me tell you not much handles or is as much fun as my twin. My dad drives an '07wrx in the middle of a stage 2 upgrade, I let him borrow my car. His is definitely faster in the straights but he was in love with my brz and the way it handled. He said if his car is a roaring lion, mine is a panther. I liked that comparison. A Friend of mine has a gti with the vr6, and his engine pulls for days, but mine is more fun to drive and easier to get around corners fast. as far as higher end cars, the only vettes I've driven were not well maintained and I only valeted them, so its not a fair comparison.

I was speeding up to get on the freeway the other day and the FRS is pretty slow (but sounds nice revving up high). It makes sense when I think about it. Imagine being able to floor the pedal through a lot of corners at high RPMs without having to let off the accelerator much. I would imagine that would be extremely fun. Check out "Drift Bible" by Keiichi Tsuchiya when he talks about the AE86 and Miata being fun cars that you can just accelerate into a corner whereas faster and heavier cars have to brake sooner and longer and adjust their throttle. Sure, it's for drifting, I'm sure the application applies elsewhere. Here's the part of the video where he talks about how to drift low power cars. At 1:06, Keiichi even says "I wish Toyota made cars like these again". Boom. FT-86

[ame]http://youtu.be/UlE2acN9zaY[/ame]

The only objective measurement is skidpad, everything else has too many variables and the quality and type of tire will have a dramatic effect on performance. And as stated above does not "capture" what it means to "handle well".

Arguing which car is faster (when it's not obvious like GTR vs Tacoma) is like arguing your dad could beat up my dad.

Totally agree with your definition of handling, but I think the gap on that attribute between the hot hatches and the RWD sports cars may be starting to close, based on all the recent reviews of 2 new models just hitting Europe now--the Fiesta ST and the Mk7 GTI equipped with the new optional LSD. Those two in particular are reported to have banished understeer from the FWD lexicon, can be rotated in-corner by the pedals alone, banish torque steer, leave their predecessors in the proverbial dust, and are a blast to drive. They are certainly getting close enough to the twins to be worth comparative drives before writing the big cheque.

The real question should be "What cars can the DRIVER outhandle?"

Couldn't agree more LOL :thanks:

Shouldn't this go in the comparison forum? god these threads are tiresome sometimes.

using skidpad as the only parameter measuring "handling" is a horrible idea. By that measurement a Ford Mustang GT handles better than an FRS/BRZ.

Watch this:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shwgNV36xFA"]Car Handling - Grip, Oversteer & Understeer explained by Tiff Needell - YouTube[/ame]

Handling and Grip (Road holding) are two different things and people often confuse the two.

Our car's can HANDLE, they just lack grip on factory tyres.

I haven't driven the Fiesta ST or mk7 GTI with performance pack, so I can't really say until they get here.

The mk7 GTI w/PP in particular looks promising though. VW is saying all the right things: electronically-controlled LSD, lower height and CG than mk6, lighter weight than mk6, etc. But will it be enough to make it handle comparably to an FR-S? No idea. It's a tall order though, as the gap is quite large currently.

Sorry, but no it doesn't. It's good, but it isn't that good.

At the last autocross event that I competed in, there was a bone stock Cayman S. I was only .6 seconds off his best run on stock tires. Neither of us are "newbies".

Interpret that however you like. :iono:

Scott

Agreed. Owning the Boxster Spyder and test driven the FR-S what I can say is that the FR-S feels similar but just not as good in every way.

From the driving feel perspective with all the weight in the middle on the boxster or cayman it just turns better. Just like rotating the dumbbell with 5lbs on the end is much harder than rotating without the weight on the end and placing the 10lbs on middle of the handle.

I love the FRS and still considering buying one. The driving feel and fun factor is all there and I respect driving feel over anything else. That is the reason I still drive my Evo IX MR.

Other than the Evo, Miata I don't know if anything else comes close in terms of driving feel other than moving up in $ to the Porsches or supercars. Yes limits are proportion to the cost but driving the FR-S give you the feel of a Porsche without the cost. A+. Love the car and still consider buying one.

I was considering buying one for auto cross. Would you recommend auto or manual. The longer gearing on the AT may help? Tire suggestions :)?

Some top gear should help.

https://vimeo.com/59415579

Correct, and the Primacy tires were no accident. The engineers wanted tires that were easier to break traction and drift with. They clearly went with more fun factor versus less grip. In multiple tests conducted by multiple third party sources, just swapping out the tires resulted in better lap times, better figure 8 times, better lateral acceleration, etc.

If someone is looking for better grip, they need only switch the tires.

It's honestly kind of hard to compare them on the basis of track time - the cayman will pretty much always be faster on a given track, but it's also higher horsepower (substantially), and the driver was different as well (regardless of experience level). However, I was mostly referring to driving feel with my last post. Having test driven a BRZ extensively when I was in the market (and owning a Cayman now), the Cayman steering is more solid feeling and communicative, and the car always feels ready to respond, almost as if it were reading your mind and predicting your next move.

Again, I'm not saying the BRZ is bad - it's an amazing car and I'm a huge fan (which is why I'm here, obviously), but the Cayman's handling is better in pretty much every way, at least subjectively (with one disappointing exception in my case - the older Caymans, mine included, suffer a bit for lack of a decent LSD, which can be problematic when trying to put down power out of a low speed corner. The newer ones with PTV have solved this problem though).

Stating the obvious here, but the 86/BRZ will out handle sweet f#%k all if you're a shit driver.

Well, that's true with any car :)

Outhandle?

According to MotorTrend the the Triplets are amongst the best driver's cars in the world. No mention of hot hatches with their front drive understeer and turbo lag. As @chaoskaze noted above, people often don't understand the difference of performance vs. handling and why the trips low COM, COG, weight, RWD, + weight distribution, suspension tuning and NA engine & price make it one of the finest cars produced in a generation. MotorTrend is no bible, but they make a great point that guys like Chris Harris, Clarkson, Probst, and more backup.

The 86 is so hard to fault that it's constantly compared to much more expensive cars (as in the MotorTrend article above), or v.s. used sports cars that cost thousands more when they were new. This is key because in a real world comparison test people rarely cross-shop cars that are $7k - $33k more expensive. Heck, put $10k into a base FRS and it would smoke any of these cars on the track (blower, tires, brakes).

2006 Porsche Cayman S $58,900 - 2013 adjusted $68,716
2011 Lotus Elise $39,985 - 2013 adjusted $43,669
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3 $32,960 - 2013 adjusted $34,527
2013 Nissan 370z $32,280
2009 Honda S2000 $34,995 - 2013 adjusted $38,219

The triplets ride on RWD sports car platform to be built out. A foundation to make either a track monster, show car, or something in between for very little money

***And another thing, this time power - The triplets FA20 is one of the highest specific output naturally aspirated engines in the world at 100bhp/liter. >link<
Porsche 911 GT3 RS4.0 - 125.1 bhp/L
Ferrari 458 Italia - 125.0 bhp/L
Lexus LFA - 115.1 bhp/L
Audi RS5 - 108.1 bhp/L
Lambo LP570-4 Superleggera - 108 bhp/L
FA20 Triplets - 100.0 bhp/L
</rant>