First Ferrari, now Porsche???
 

With such a heavy following for the MT tranny, I thought this article was interesting. So... could we be witnessing the demise of the MT? Will the FRS/BRZ continue with the MT in the future? I guess only time will tell.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...911s?fbfanpage

Great question, and I think they highly likely will stay MT in the future. Unlike Porsche and Ferrari who has the money to keep pumping out these high end dual clutch cars, I think Subaru and Toyota will op to stay true and simple. That and aside from Lexus you don't hear much about the successes of the STI's auto.

I think this belongs in the Other Automotive and General car dicussion because the article is about Porsche. Great post though :)

Sorry, if I posted in the wrong section. Mods, feel free to move the thread. Thanks. :thanks:

I agree with you there Zaku. I think the higher end sports car makers will continue towards the AT direction as it does seem like the future in motoring. It'll be shame when a day comes where no MT is available for the masses.

I've driven a VW Scirocco with DSG around the Nurburgring and it works, I hate automatics but DSG works very well for tracks. Strangely, the place I really want a clutch pedal is around town in the same place where people bring up the laziness argument about wanting an auto for traffic.

Lol don't worry I mean look we still have horses, MT isn't going anywhere soon. But these new electric cars require an Auto I don't think MT can handle the torque these things are putting out. Can you imagine the stage of clutch you need to move something that does 1000 LBS torque like the Fisker Karma.

I find my self bored driving an automatic car... Not sure y anyone would buy a sports car and then choose auto over a manual

True that. I just hope they let the CVT die. I once drove a rental with a CVT and I really hated it. Just didn't feel like driving at all. :barf:

Actually for me, if I had to choose for like say a time attack at a track ... I would pick Dual or Auto over Manual because when it's that sort of situation they are faster. But then we're getting into auto vs MT dicussion and I think there's a 60 page thread on that lol.

There are some perks of the Auto, simple things like I like to be able to hold my girl's hand when I'm driving and not have to shift every so often, or when I'm stuf in LA and DC traffic. But then again I guess that's what having a daily driver is for, and I'm with converted I was going to get an AT but came back to MT.

Your right... AT is so boring... at least for me on long trips

You want my opinion? I hate the clutch with a passion not the stick.

For super high performance cars it makes sense that they're switching to the dual clutch systems. They can shift faster and more precise than a manual transmission, and with the advances in technology the downshifting is surpassing anything a driver can do with a stick and clutch. I'm a huge fan of the mechanical connection that a manual transmission gives a driver, but from a pure performance standpoint, the dual clutch "automatic" transmissions are definitely the future.

Fair enough, each to his own. With me, my left foot is antsy when im in an auto.

+1. I couldn't agree w/ you more.

i like driving both equally as long as the AT or MT is good. i've driven a lot of crappy MT cars and same with autos.

i think paddle shifters are where it's at for the hard-core people

but honestly it's time for the clutch pedal and stick combo to go.

New BMW 3 series, auto or stick same cost, so no discount for the stick and auto gets better mpg.

So you would hate DSG twice as hard, since it has two clutches :D

Since they make so much torque, they use less gears in the gearbox with stronger gears. And since an electric motor with high peak power has too much torque available at low speeds, they electronically limit the torque. Electric cars are inherently simple to operate, no fun in that :/

If the automatic was the same price (and who knows it may be) and got better mpg like the bmw it would be a very hard choice for me. I do like the idea of working on my car myself and for some reason MT seem much less daunting which might sway me.

BMW and Audi are doing the same, the M5 was not available in MT in Europe for the last 2 generations and now the RS4 is going the same way.

in the Euro fuel economy test there are rules saying for a manual what speeds you have to shift at regardless of the car where as the AT can do what they like. This is why they are going to DCT as it allows auto mode for the cycle with manual over ride that is more sporty than putting paddles on a conventional AT.

With more and more hybrids and downsizing comes in both for Gas and Diesel everyone will be going AT as it will become too complicated to leave it to the driver (especially with the increased used of 7/8 speed boxes)

"So... could we be witnessing the demise of the MT?"

Well it's clearly on the downfall. When all is said and gone it's off to the motorbikes for me then...

Why hold her hand, when you can do the "Stare and Drive"? :bonk



In all seriousness, I think GT cars that are for occasional track use and for lots of fun street driving should be MT. Cars that are solely for performance can have their Double Clutch systems...

If either of them made a car affordable to the people that really want them this wouldnt be a problem. Unfortunatly the ones that can affard them are either very old or just wealthy and want the car for status so they couold care less about having a proper manual trannie.

A GT3 with no clutch pedal would make me cry.

Me too mate. Just have to saved up money for a 997 GT3 and save a bit extra for maintenance.

LOL its only a matter of time. honda has a DCT. i can guarantee that once Ducati, MV Agusta, or whoever put a DCT in their halo bike, there will be no turning back. look at the emergence of ABS and traction control. "hardcore track riders" detested these systems that took away from the skill of riding, blah, blah, blah... is it true? yes of course, but these systems also make the bike faster, for more people. and thats ultimately what the manufacturer wants...

so while MT will never go away, i believe it will survive only in niche cars like the miata, elise, etc.

FYI. Electric cars do not require "automatics" aka torque converters or clutches. They(namely the ones with AC motors that most companies are using) can run a single gear, clutchless transmission. They don't even require a reverse gear as they can simply reverse the motor's rotation via the controller. Plus you have it backwards manuals tend to be stronger than automatics due to fewer parts and such.

High end manufacturers like Ferrari and Porsche going to DSG is not for the driving aspect, it's for the performance benefits. So no worries here.

Manual gearbox not going anywhere is right though...90% of new cars are "automatics" and have been for 10+ years. :sigh:

Mine isn't. ;)

Fair enough. I had a feeling the riders are having the same sort of transmission battle. I'll admit I'm not a bike enthusiast, but I have respect for the machines and riders.

I completely agree with you. But does it get to the point where they are preoccupied with numbers and "beating the other guy" that you achieve what the MP4-12C is? Fantastic with numbers against the 458 but in someway it lost the desirability contest because of that pursuit.

Hence the reason why I enjoy the spirt of this car; because it was never designed to be a numbers car, it devoted towards being a fun car to drive despite a lack of grip and some will argue, power. And that's why some people dismiss this car by raw data alone.

So do we begin to lose the plot with (Clarkson voice) "health and safety" and the pursuit of better performance thru these advancements. To put in other words: Are super-cars becoming a bit like appliances because of this?
Boring because anyone can jump in and go like a bat out of hell and step out...
Or are they not boring because people are able to enjoy more of the potential of the machines...

Clearly the latter is what the manufactures want which is why the trend is going this way. However I can argue that they are losing mystique because of this.

Just my opinion...

I think, eventually, there will be 2 ATs. 1 traditional and 2 dual clutch. Like it or not dual clutch is the future of MT's.

I actually think manufacturers may start moving away from dual clutch back to traditional automatics when people realize a 0.05 second shift and a 0.1 second shift are not really all that different. Torque converters have their place when the car is in 1st gear :) IMO what would be really cool is a hydraulic pressure control pedal that lets you "slip" the torque converter like a manual to varying degrees, but only someone easily amused like me would think doing extra work while driving is cool.

the modern AT will stunt the growth of both CVTs and DCTs. on the supercar end, we may see a resurgence of the single clutch AMT. the aventador shows that DCTs are not the end all supercar tranny design.

It's probably closer to 20+ years, and I assume you're talking mostly about North America. In Europe, it's been the reverse for 20+ years: 90% of new cars are manual transmission.

I think the traditional reason for this trend is because gas prices are much higher in Europe than in North America, and in the past, manual transmissions gave better gas mileage (less mechanical parts gives you less weight). There's also a cost factor, where the manual transmission typically used to cost less than the automatic.

Nowadays, technology has vastly improved for automatics. By automatics, I mean anything that's not a manual transmission. Things like DCTs can offer better fuel economy than a manual transmission. The cost of these is also coming down.

As the technology costs continue to come down and as fuel efficiency of automatic transmissions goes up, the writing is already on the wall that the manual transmission will eventually go away. As an enthusiast who likes driver involvement and not just outright performance, this makes me sad. But as a consumer, I look forward to the improved fuel efficiency.

Say you buy the auto for the FRS BRZ and in the future you put a nice power kit on it to get say close to 300 hp.

What are the implications for upgrading the manual vs auto to handle the increased power?