Stock In-Tank Fuel Filter Degradation
 

Let's try this again. Please keep this informational and factual.

The Issue:
*****It is not proven that E85 will destroy your filter. This is one case of it happening on an almost track-exclusive car.*****

@robispec found out (while diagnosing high rpm hesitation) that the combination of E85 + high flow (maxed out stock injectors) + lots of track competitions (~5k on E85) = a disintegrated fuel pump filter (not the sock filter). No fuel additives were ever used.

The filter:
1. Is encased in the plastic bucket that the fuel pump sits in.
2. Is not serviceable.
3. Is attached with adhesive that may or may not be susceptible to Ethanol degradation.
4. Is composed of a fibrous felt-like material that disseminated throughout Robi's fuel system.
5. The enclosure with the filter in it costs ~$106.65. Part#: 42052CA110
https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/oe_parts_cat.html

Prevalence:
Only one incident of filter degradation so far.

Many other's have been on E85 with no issues thus far though most if not all do not come close to the amount of tracking Robi's car sees.

A counter point to this issue is Don @ Accelerated Performance's car which also has ~5k miles on E85. He sees no problems with his filter. Some argue he hasn't run his car consistently hard like Robi has.

The solution:
We can add various solutions as we go.

I do have a question though: Is this filter even required? Is the sock filter sufficient? Can a new bucket be designed without a filter? Is there a reasonably safe way to cut open the enclosure, remove the filter, and then seal it back up?

If this filter was not absolutely necessary, one could mount an in-line filter downstream of the pump.

Robi's pics of the fibrous filter material:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...psdbddbd78.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...psa34c9944.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps617ec75f.jpg

This is how the filter should look ( @Don@Accelerated picture)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...psae1f1868.jpg

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...ps78fb402b.jpg

Sportsguy's pic of the enclosure housing the filter:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q...0/IMAG0677.jpg

Maybe change the first line to clarify that this is SPECULATED to be the issue,

Let's not rule out any potentials right off the bat

i think you should add all of robispecs pictures and put don's findings as well...lets just try and keep this thread clean and full of valuable information..I love using e-85 but even tho don's filter came up clean i'm sure most of our e85 members are still on the :iono: side when using e85. I for one would spend money on a better solution so this does not happen to my car..will def be following this thread
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdp374Vbcy1rn791f.gif

Didn't I read that robispec used lucas fuel injector cleaner? That is a fuel additive isn't it?

he said he never use it in the innovate thread

You read the type of speculation that sent the last thread to hell.

Let's keep it to quotable FACTS people.

FACTS unless Robi says it happened I'd rather keep the speculation out of this thread

Is there any information on the type of materials used in our filters? The filter appears to be a corrugated fabric/paper type with stainless caps and an unknown adhesive.

E85's MSDS:
LINK to PDF

Typical fuel filter paper:
Basis Weight = 130 g/m2
Thickness = 0.43 mm
Air Permeability (p=200pa L/m2.s) ≥ 100
Corrugated Depth = 0.23 mm
Max Pore Size = 55 µm
Mean Pore Size = 40 µm
Burst Strength ≥350 kPa
Gurley Stiffness = 2000 mg
Volatile = 4%

also the "clean filter" hasnt been in the car for a while as they have gon to an in house double pumper in the same location.using the stock outer canister...
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...psb8d408f8.jpg

sweet solution op was 5/11/13
the cellulose bits are between the brown paper coverings i tore open my filter to get samples to compare to the junk that was trapped in my pump sock and sump bowl,fuel lines, DI pump, DI lines PI injectors and finally in my DI injectors.

Let's talk solutions.

Can the filter be removed without destroying the part it's in?

Can we find a replacement that will be E85 hardened? (i.e. a Stainless mesh)

Can we find an alternative? (i.e. in-line E85 filter)

We can't (intelligently) discuss solutions until we have definitively identified the root cause of the failure.

Can an existing filter be sent to a lab to determine the adhesive used?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

filter is glued inside a container

the container is part of the rt side sump return system.

we are working on it

For a while?

Was just removed from the car last time I was in Ohio.

Btw it's funny how you deny using fuel additives here on the forum but told me in person while at innovate you had used them before running e85.

John

Don't start this again please. Other thread got locked. Why exactly is that his post can't be Factual?

Both vendors have different accounts and experiences on this topic, let the evidence run its course. Like you said SO FAR its an isolated incident.

Help me to understand how the amount of time the car has been "tracked" has anything to do with it. We aren't talking about tires or brake pads. Are you referring to the amount of fuel going through it at a given time? How does that really effect it? Im actually curious...

I don't know, but it could be a factor. I wouldn't rule anything out because this the first time anyone has reported an issue. I'm not saying being tracked heavily is the cause, but I wouldn't be willing to rule anything out right away.

Theoretically, the amount of fuel passing through the filter could be a factor, or the increased demand placed on the fuel system could have had an effect. We know that extended time on a race track puts more wear and tear on a car than normal street driving, or at least DIFFERENT wear and tear, maybe this is related.

Edit: I deleted my previous post to unclutter this thread and leave it for facts. I'd request that those not contributing to the actual topic of this thread do the same.

i agree lets not do this again and get this thread locked. Alot of people are on e-85 right now and I'm sure most of us are not even taking sides anymore. We just want to know the simple question. Will e85 cause damage? are there any solutions?

IMO there is not enough banning of trolls on here.

They shit on valuable discussions every time.

And 9 times out of 10 are not even stakeholders in the thread subject.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Well, a quick google search for 'e85 fuel filter' would suggest this isn't unheard of. 'Paper filter degradation' has been documented. Also problems introduced when the fuel filter isn't changed before using it the first time, clogging of fuel filters, etc.

I'm not saying any of this is correct, just that there's plenty out there to read on the subject, and at least some cars do appear to have issues similar to this. I'd imagine there is a reason the vehicle isn't rated for e85 by Toyota/Subaru, so it makes sense that you may run into something like this.

Edit: so it's pretty apparent after reading a bit that you're pretty much just not supposed to use e85 with paper filters. So, in any case, this is surely a problem to some degree and we need a stainless filter to fix it. If you believe the internet, that is.

Is the intank fuel canister assembly different than WRX/STI's? There is a LOT of data on E85 use in those cars, and if they are the same or at least similar that would help.

Yeah we talked for exactly 3 questions posed by me and ten sentences total. Long enought for me to figure out you would never get to work on anything I owned.
I POSTED THE POSTING DATE ON THE PICTURE ABOVE.
As usual you assume an attack when none was launched
Now you fabricate and imply a complete lie. With your "word" as the foundation. I think you are, funny I have no dog in this fight...nothing to sell nothing even to work with right now. I was even looking at don's part as a solution. I'm just reporting what happened to me and my experiances with HIGH VOLUME e-85 usage. It's interesting how using 100 octane race fuel gets twisted to "fuel aditives" you want a war start telling someone in this indusrty KNOWN FOR NEVER LYING, hes lying.
You my freind are already known for the exact reverse actions. Keep it up, your just digging your own grave deeper.
I have never said or implyied anything relating to you on this forum that I have not been forced to live through.

This was exactly what i was thinking. Is the same pump assembly used in other subarus? Or is this a new part. If so, is that style of filter used in other pumps.

Bringing it back to facts:
304 Stainless, 6061 Aluminum, and their oxide surface layers are safe for use in E85.
LINK to journal publication

Dupont has a thorough list of reactivities to various solvents:
LINK to charts

The EPA should be an expert in these things... since they are advocating its usage. Here's a list of publications describing the storage and standards surrounding Ethanol-Gasoline blends.
LINK to homepage

The Dept of Energy has a very thorough overview of Ethanol and the infrastructure required for gas stations. Aluminum (assuming 6061 is exempt) and brass must be plated before use.
LINK to PDF

** Appendix B (page 39) of this paper by the Renewable Fuels Foundation shows the list of materials that were soaked in ethanol for 30 days at 110 degF and showed NO decrease in mass when compared to identical gasoline testing.
LINK to PDF

Metals:
Aluminum alloy
Magnesium alloy
Copper
Zinc
Carbon steel
Cartridge brass
Aluminum bronze
Stainless steel
Aluminum alloy (cast)
Iron (cast)
Zinc alloy (cast)
Terne plate

Plastics:
Nitrile
Viton®
Neoprene® (Chloroprene)
Epichlorohydrin
-Homopolymer
-Copolymer
Nylon 6 6
Delrin® (Acetyl polymer)
Teflon®
Polyethylene (high density)
Nitrophyl® (Nitrile rubber)
Fluoroelastomers

Decrease in mass does not necessarily mean no damage. Ask any owner of Ducati motorcycles with plastic gas tanks about the effects of 10% ethanol. Deforming tanks leading to fuel pump flange leaks, blistering paint, and loosening from their mounts leading to class action lawsuits and lots of ill will with owners. (The new 1199 Superbike now has an aluminum, not plastic tank.)

And IIRC Ducati didn't replace the tanks more than once.

interesting, a couple of notes

1.) I didn't see paper or cellulose in there.

2.) Their list of metal (quoted) seems like BS, they have aluminum alloy as one simple line...I have a problem with that , there are dozens if not hundreds of grades of Aluminum, and all are alloys...Pure aluminum is nearly useless for most applications.

3.) They state 6061 and it's oxide layer are suitable for E-85? yet Aluminum must be plated before use in gas stations? 6061 is the most readily available and widely used alloy of Aluminum that I can think of only Al 356 comes close (casting alloy)

4.) Did they maintain the concentration of ethanol somehow, was it constantly replenished? Ethanol (or most alcohols) are hygroscopic, they will absorb their own weight in Water given enough exposure to the humidity in the air. and Ethanol at 110f doesn't hand around very long, the rate of evaporation is pretty substantial in that condition

5.) it is common knowledge (in some circles) that you must anodize Al fuel lines for use in a E-85 application due to the increased risc of corrosion due to the water holding abilities of E-85


What say yee?

Yeah, I don't remember the details of the settlement. I spent several hundred dollars on each of my replacement tanks getting them internally coated. Both my PS1000LE and 848 tanks needed replacement.

1) Don't think paper was in the scope of their test.

2) McMaster has 17 types. They even state that 6061 is the most common for automotive components.

3) Just above that, I mention a Dept of Energy publication that recommends nickel plating aluminum. Certain advanced alloys are likely to be OK, but unless you know the content... there's alot of variance in "aluminum" so plating is a smart idea.

4) If I were a betting man, I'd say they put a bunch of large beakers in a sealed oven (separated from the heating element of course). Set 1 sample in each beaker, hang the other above it. Let it sit for a month, checking occasionally for issues. Weigh the samples pre- and post-test on a digital gram scale. Closed environment means humidity control.

5) E85 responds very differently since it is anhydrous ethanol + gasoline. It gets all of the water separated out before blending. Once it's blended, it's fairly stable... but you're right it can absorb water from the air. E100 (in Brazil and other places) is hydrous ethanol that has 1% water and 99% ethanol. That kind of fuel has it's own can of worms... but it is a simpler fuel to design around (if you happen to have acres of sugar cane lying around).

Thanks for the discussion. Always good to find people with some brains and experience BOTH.

On a lighter note... anybody have a guess what the adhesive is? wood glue? epoxy? Elmer's? Place your bets!

I'm gonna guess some type of hoof.

No kidding I got some Cold Finished 6061 from Fry Steel recently that cut alot more like copper than Aluminum...Certed by an American lab CoO was Korea


Thank you that makes sense, I am really just a hillbilly...i was thinking oak barrels coat hanger and the swamp lol


This is interesting I was not aware that there was a positive (for this application) effect on water absorption by blending the Ethanol and Gasoline.

I had heard alot of boat owners complaining of the E10 blends not storing well due to the large vents on boats and the tendency to absorb water. Was this a scape goat for another source of water contamination possibly?

And Thanks, :happy0180:

It's a positive displacement pump with no means of regulating flow. It puts out the same flow if your at idle in traffic or bombing down the front straight of your favorite track. There is a pressure regulator after the pump that unloads fuel back to the tank to maintain pressure in the system, but that doesn't effect the flow rate within the pump and thus the inlet filter. The fact that most of Robi's driving has been at a great rate of speed means that his pump has been running a lot less then someone who has driven the same amount of miles but in city traffic. I'd really like to see how many hours his car has ran, but most people don't log that.

Nylon 12 is the preferred material for flex fuel cars. Nylon 6 12 is good too, but more expensive.

Not sure how helpful or relavent this may be, but this post has quite a bit of good info on the BRZ fuel system:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/built-mo...lkthrough.html

For that price I might just cut open my filter too just to see.. if it's not too hard to install, that is.
I'm not a chemist or mechanic.. I still don't understand, nor do I believe (yet) that 10% ethanol won't [eventually] damage something that 85% ethanol will.

I wounder if Robi had a pressure relief valve / regulator failure that caused the pressure the spike enough to damage the filter media....

I'm guessing it won't be long before someone offers a modified 42052D that has the filter removed and an external, inline filter in it's place.

Looks like it's a bit more than that. $269 ($359 list) is what I'm seeing (assuming we're talking about assembly 14, part # 42021CA000)

http://i.imgur.com/6rHpQ3a.png

http://www.buysubarupartsnow.com/par...em/fuel-supply

After you were done bragging about how sweet your car was you started on how fast it was.. then you started talking to me about how you switched to ethanol. You had mentioned before that you were always running some sort of octane additive at the track because of the crappy 91 octane. That's where I mentioned that octane boosters or racegas didn't show much in gains but ethanol did. You continued to discuss with me that you thought you'd have a bigger gain with ethanol and didnt like how the car didnt start up correctly in the morning... Sound familiar yet? I told you i was surprised you had startup issues with such warm temps...I then told you I would just flash the car for you but you would have to take that hack of a intake off and go back to stock. After you left some of the guys spoke to me... Lets just say there's a reason I didn't pick up your next phone call.

No one ever said you had a dog in this fight , we all want to know what's going on with your filter and if there is a problem and what caused it. But to come on here and say this is a result of 500 gallons of ethanol use.. well that's not accurate.

John

In before thread lock >_<

Im sure in a year or two we will have some more data on guys that have been running e85 for 2-3 years.

Excellent find! Didn't know that the HPFP was cam-driven, went to 3000 psi, or that it has a built-in pressure sensor. It's looking more and more like the EcoBoost setup that I'm familiar with.