BRZ vs E46 M3
 

Go! :D

We had an E30 and E9x discussion, but the E46 M3 is a great car to compare. Lighter than the E9x, and more powerful than the E30M3 - the E46 has 333hp, and is said to be very tossable. Luxury ride with all the bells and whistles, then turn off the electronic nannies and hit the track!

Prices are around $17-22k for the coupe or vert - so cheaper than the BRZ, and available now (no waiting). Issues? Sure - maintaining a BMW out of warranty is no fun task. Buy a new BRZ, drive it 80k miles without any issues (hopefully!). Buy a used M3 with 80k miles that had no issues and see how your luck is as you approach 160k miles.

That said, a well kept E46 M3 may be a good "in between" vehicle. Buy one with 70k miles, drive it for a year or two, sell it with 85k miles for a couple thousand bucks less - then buy a BRZ when they are easy to get (dealers stocked).

once I get my hands on a FRS and will let you know ;)

Oh, 05-06 E46M3 w/ (ZCP) Comp pkg will still cost more than FRS/BRZ. :bellyroll:

You sure? Quick search: '05 Comp Pkg w/ 48k miles for $26k.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac...823653912.html

BRZ pricing not announced yet, but I'm going with the Limited model - estimating $27k give or take.

Non comp pkg with 70-80k miles are going for about $20k, depending on condition, year, etc.

so get the M3? Its a faster car!! :bellyroll:

The E46 is a tank compared to the FR-S/BRZ, 700-800 lb. heavier!

Always about the weight. lol You need to drive one of these or is it still too heavy?

http://www.go-carts-guide.com/images...e-21366981.jpg

The E46 M3 came from the factory with ITBs...why would they swap that out for a K&N intake?

Any BMW M car will be very expensive to maintain compared to an in warranty Subaru.

Especially so when you are buying one from the average BMW owner since they probably only did the "free" BMW maintenance which if you ask the BMW faithful has lead to the premature failure of a lot of different parts you would expect to last a lot longer than they do.

I suggest you do some serious research into E46 M3's before taking the plunge. You do not just casually pick up a 70K mile specimen and drive it without making major repairs and/or expensive maintenance as well.

Don't get me wrong, the E46 M3 was the car I wanted more than anything in college (especially after I drove my uncle's six speed coupe...now that was awesome), but after seeing what has gone wrong with his M3, I wouldn't touch an E46 without some major coin in the bank and a service manual.

Another benefit is that Subaru borrowed heavily from the Impreza parts bin when making the BRZ.

^^^^ good post. Looks like you've seriously looked into it.

Heard early ones had a recall for rod or crank bearings. That one of your uncle's problems?

He had nagging sub-frame issues, needed to replace bushings on a yearly basis, and went through I don't know how many sets of window regulators...and I'm not sure but he may have had some oil consumption issues as well.

It just seemed like every time I talked to him, the car had been to the shop recently or was still in the shop...

I ran into the window regulator problem about 3 times in as many years along with a nagging issue with the sunroof coming off the tracks (5 times total), however that was covered by a dealer warranty (not the original ) .....last "electrical problem" i faced was a HK door tweeter that popped, but that only happened once and happened surprisingly while the car was off and parked, never figured that out.

As for the Vanos issue, that problem was solved within weeks of the discovery in the M52 world, loctite solved it, absolutely solved it..However if you wanted to 1 up and get a factory solution they fixed it a few years into the e46 M3 with a new specd set of locking bolts (could just be swapped out the same time you replaced your vanos unit)

The sub frame issue i see was brought up also..that was just the nature of the beast, it's still a problem.. You either reinforced it yourself or bought an aftermarket unit..And when you do that you run the risk of splitting steel else where. I knew a few people who's strut mounts cracked out due to a combination of bushing density and lack of reinforcement in enough locations to distribute the force on that plate. but it was all do-able..

but these were the reasons I traded out for the E36 M3..much better M all around imho, i was never a fan of the e46 generation going into it and still was not a fan coming out of it. Too soft overall, much more "woman" centric M-car...makes sense since it was bangles first debacle..

Let me jump into this one with both feet. I used to be self proclaimed Bimmer man and have had several Bimmers in the past. Most recently '07 Z4 3.0si and a '04 E46 M3. I've owned E46 ZHP's, M Roadster, Z3 M, 330i, etc. Like I said I used to be a Bimmer man, but... and it's a big but not anymore. They've just gone mental like Porsche. I mean a fully loaded E92 335is is $65k+ and a new M3 $85k+??? Mental I tell you!

In any case, let's get back to the subject at hand. My most recent Z4 3.0si had it's entire head replaced twice under warrenty and the entire motor replaced once. After that I was done. I sold it after less than 2 yrs of ownership. The E46 M3 I had the engine blow up once and the engine replaced only to have the motor die again twice. Once on the fwy. I think it spent more time at the dealer than in my garage. After that I was done and had my buddy, who is a slick lawyer, have BMW America buy the car back.

But my impression of the E46 M3,which is probably my favorite Bimmer I've ever owned next to the E46 ZHP, is that it was really good. Handled great and the motor was really strong. The thing that killed it for me was the SMG II. I live in LA and traffic is a bitch. In stop n go traffic the tranny kicks like a mule. Also, the ride is really stiff. Like bruise your kidneys stiff. So it got really annoying on bad roads, which is pretty much all we get here in metro LA. One thing though, I did take it on the track a couple of times and then that's really when I began to appreciate how good the car was. The SMG II really came into it's own on the track and really made me feel like I was some race car driver. Unfortunately, I didn't take the car to the track as much as I'd have liked. Sometimes I miss the car, but I think the BRZ will fix that! :happy0180:

Still too heavy for him. Get rid of the bells and whistles (motor, brakes, suspension, pedals, gas tank). All he needs is a steering wheel, a seat, a chassis and his god given Flintstones powerplant.

Just curious as to where you're located that you're getting shafted so bad on Bayerische prices?

I just think that a 3500 lb M3 is a travesty, a more sophisticated and upmarket Camaro rather than a proper evolution of the original E30 M3 ideals.

FRS/BRZ are comparable to the original M3. Similar specs but at a much lower price point. Now *that's* progress. The M3's devolepment has just been to add ever more mass and power, not at all true to the ideals of minimalism, light(ish) weight, and maximized FUN.

If I could have either car, and lived in a fantasy land where everything had a million year warranty and nothing ever broke, I'd go for the M3 every time. It's more of a GT than the FR-S/BRZ, but the performance, feel, sounds, etc are awesome.

Sadly, I live in realityland, and used M3s have some pretty significant maintainance requirements and no warranty :brokenheart:

Progress is, essentially, re-creating a 90's BMW, and selling it for less? That's an interesting take on progress.

It is WAY more relevant to real-world driving enjoyment than the modern uber-M3's excess. If your enthusiasm is all about numbers, sure, modern M3s are "better". But any number of BMWphiles would agree with my point: the original was more pure and more FUN.

For the record I was joking before, just poking a little fun at your minimalist weight obsession :P.

But I'll add a little insight to this seeing as I've been working for the company for a while now. The current iteration of the BMW name/performance/driving feel, is that bread for competition. Sure minimalist vehicles are FUN but miata drivers, old school CRX owners, RX8 owners, and future FRS owners will tell you they don't produce the best all around numbers. Not to mention your perception of what is "pure and more fun" is highly subjective, most people just enjoy the feeling of being put back in their seat and then taking a corner at an ungodly speed; which regardless of how much they weigh, new BMW's are VERY capable of doing.

Also, you need to consider the demographic BMW's are marketed to and the competition that exists in that market demographic. Your typical M3 owner isn't your average joe making average joe money, that's just a fact; call them upper middle class at the very least. Now their reason for doing that is for the simple fact that luxury and prestige sell. Need an example? Take the Boss 302. It out performs the M3 in every sense of the word but what do you think impresses NON-Enthusiasts (the majority of the automotive market) more, actual performance or the Logo BMW and comperable performance that you can feel? Both cars will put you back in your seat, both cars corner extraodinarily well (albiet one a bit better than the the other), and both cars "in my opinion" look amazing. The big difference? Cost of ownership, Emblem, Luxury and prestige. Want proof, ask any random Man or Woman on the street "Are you a performance minded automotive enthusiast?" If they answer "what??" or "No, I don't know much about cars" or just simply "No" follow that question up with "BMW M3 or Ford Mustang Boss 302"; I can confidently say 4 out of 5 people will say BMW M3.

Now public image aside lets look at the M3's competitors, Audi RS4 / RS5, Mercedes C63 AMG, and the soon to be Cadillac ATS-V. All luxury sports coupe / sedans, all fairly costly, all not what you would call "minimalist". That's just the way things have turned out for the M3 and if they went back to the lightweight/moderate horsepower/maximum handling potential route, they would lose sales. Period. And the BMW M "cash cow" wouldn't be the BMW M cash cow anymore.

So like it or not, you're in the minority. Also, having driven many a e46/e92 M3 and a few e30's, I can confidently tell you they are PLENTY of fun and don't need to be as light as the e30 to stay that way.




Edit: Listen bro, I know it may seem this way but I have no personal vendetta against you or your ideals pertaining to cars. The only thing I'm saying is a world where manufacturers cater to enthusiasts with pre-existing platforms refusing to adapt to the needs/wants of present society is nothing short of fictitious. If they did, they'd all be belly up.

"Bred" for competition? Not really. By and large they are luxury cars that put up stellar performance numbers, but they are further and further removed from being good track cars.

You can't even get a limited slip in a non-M BMW any more. Way back when you could get a clutch-type lsd in the lowliest 318i!

The E36 is really the last good BMW track car, IMO.

Yeah, they put up good numbers. But 99% of the time on the street (unless your an ass), you're not going to be driving in any kind of way where you can appreciate the ultimate performance capability. Smaller lighter-weight cars just feel more fun *all* the time.

Not as much as economy/practicality does. Unfortunately BMW doesn't have the guts to do another 2002 type car.

IMO they could expand their market quite a bit if they'd simply do a car like the Mini, but rwd. Simple, small, lightweight, affordable, FUN. They've grown far too comfortable building high-$$$ luxury sedans and SUVs. Even the 1-series is a 3300 lb. boat!

I don't think that they'd necessarily lose sales by doing something similar to the E30 M3 or FR-S/BRZ. It was not NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did, it could have continued to add performance without adding so much weight, power, and cost. They *chose* to evolve it in the superluxocar direction.
It is entirely possible that they *could* be selling a lot more smaller/lighter/cheaper cars than they are selling 3700 lb. 414hp M3s. They simply chose to go the maximalist luxoboat route.

I've driven my share, too. The bigger/heavier cars *always* feel bigger and heavier, and not at all like the E30.

Of course manufacturers must do their best to serve up what the public wants. But the smaller/lighter-weight performance segment has been all but ignored save for the Miata, and I think that a LOT of opportunites to sell cars have been MISSED.

BMW *could* have built a much smaller, lighter-weight car with the same power/weight as the current M3. Such a car would have given the same real-world and track performance with a smaller, less powerful engine, smaller tires, smaller wheels, smaller brakes. I would be *cheaper*, and they would most likely sell a ton of them.

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ sell a ton and wake BMW and other manufacturers up to the idea of performance and driving enjoyment through minimalism rather than always "more more more".

BMW are excellent track cars, you just don't consider them as such. All the numbers and proof are there to support that claim. What makes them even better is they're excellent cars that perform well, allow the driver to feel nothing short of confident going into or exiting a corner / driving at high speeds and they offer a comfortable amount of luxury. You can't sit there and tell me that you can put the words luxury, lightweight, and class leading five star safety in the same sentence. Go ahead, I dare you.

Why would you need one in the non-M models when they aren't tailored towards a harsher riding sporty driving feel.

You're out of your mind. Period.

You're playing two arguements now. So you're saying the current M3's aren't good track cars but they put up good numbers on the track :slap:. Smalelr light-weight cars aren't luxurious, which is what the BMW name stands for. Luxury, Performance, and Prestige.

Guts =/= Intelligence. Maybe you forgot that Mini = BMW. Maybe you also forgot BMW is a highline auto, they don't DO simple. A simple car with a BMW logo on the front would hurt the brand name. It doesn't have a thing to do with guts but rather public perception. In what universe did 3300lb's become considered "boat" worthy? IMO 3300lbs that includes luxury, safety, enough computers to make a man from the 70's weep tears of blood, AND superb handling with more than reasonable horsepower is MORE than a compromise.

This is why you don't work in sales. You've such a narrow perception of what the automotive world should be like that were you ever to run the R&D side of an automotive company you'd be selling about as much cars as Lotus. You're mentality is more suited for niche brand marketing, and niche brand franchises are often owned by larger general companies because they don't offer enough to stand on their own two feet.
It was VERY NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did. People that drive BMW's like to feel comfortable in their cars, people that drive BMW's like to have storage space in their cars, people in BMW's want cars with seats that grab you with lumbar support that turns with you and allows a hightened sense of confidence while cornering, people that drive BMW's like their I-Drive knob and central display, people that drive BMW's like their steering wheels heated and their backs massaged while they drive, people that drive BMW's like their dashboards NOT made of plastic, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PURCHASE/LEASE BMW'S LIKE LUXURY AND YOU CAN'T FIT LUXURY AND LIGHTWEIGHT IN THE SAME SENTENCE. Actually, yes you can; you'll just be paying an arm and a soul for a car made entirely of carbon fibre.

And looks at the specs for the e30, now look at the specs for the e92 or the e46. Clearly the added weight isn't negatively effecting the vehicles. If you want to play the "time period doesn't matter" game, then we'll play. An e92 would smack an e30 all around a track regardless of how an e30 feels. See how stupid that was? Now tell me how the size and weight of a vehicle produce two decades ago is supposed to have any bearing on a vehicle produced in the present. Must be all those computers and safety equipment that they chose not to put in back in the late 80's (/sarcasm).


BMW brought back Mini. How much more recognition do you need? They AREN'T going to put their emblem on a minimalist vehicle. The $$$ that goes into the R&D for a niche performance vehicle that won't sell a large number of units per year would do nothing but create an intentional fiscal hemorrhage. Why would anyone with even half a brain do that to their own company?

Cheap isn't BMW's concern, that's why they're a highline auto and Toyota isn't. That's what toyota has Lexus for, and you let me know when Toyota creates a Lexus version of the FRS for an "affordable" price.

"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.

Do not invent quotes and attribute them to me.

Thanks.

I'm in LA.

You're missing a gigantic chunk of crucial information here.

1. Performance drivers/automotive enthusiasts = Car Shopping Minority
2. BMW has always been a Luxury car designer, the bmw E30 was a Luxury sedan first and foremost
3. Demand determines the product. People don't go to BMW lots to buy a 2400lb SEAT, it doesn't happen. The majority of BMW consumers are looking for things BMW has offered in their lineup for well over 50 years, COMBINED with the current trends.
4. BMW currently manages to produce a 5 seater sedan, making in excess of 400 horsepower with all the luxury to go tit for tat with Mercedes benz class entry top tier vehicle, yet still has the underpinnings (read: Everything you feel BMW has forgot, such as a highly developed chassis, motorsport derived suspension etc etc) to outlap cars producing well over it's own power.

COULD bmw produce a M3 that weighted, 1000lbs less with much less power...yea they could...but why would someone want to go out and spend 60,000 dollars on a car they produced already that brings nothing new to the table except for iDrive. OR are we assuming most M buyers, are late 20 early 30 year olds who are on automotive forums that feel their life would be made better by POWER:WEIGHT

SVT is right, you're asking for 90 degree's and snow here.

What's next? are Fiat's just too small? If Fiat's would just increase their wheelbase and put a slightly larger engine more centrally located it would be a much better car..

I mean fiat's used to be so prolific in motorsports, but now now they're just fat, and with technology today there's no reason the FIAT 500 can't be a lightweight RWD coupe with leather head to toe maybe with a carbon fiber substructure too..

The only way BMW would create a car to Zdan's liking is if they made a Z1 with more cheaper materials inside similar to the 1 series interior. I think a Z1 could weigh at the least 3100 lbs but that would still be too heavy for him. If anything BMW will eventually make a RWD, MINI and that will suit him perfectly.

:thanks:. Exactly what I was saying. Zdan can't seem to grasp that it's a bonehead move for a manufacturer to tailor products toward a small percentage of it's consumer base.


Exactly, even if a Z1 were created the simple fact that it would be a small luxury roadster. Despite it's size, with todays stringent saftey standards and the simple fact that it's a luxury roadster means there's no chance it would weigh less than 3k. Which seems to be the only type of vehicle that in his opinion is capable of producing an enjoyable driving experience; ludacris.

I look at it like this. Some enthusiast like:

Super Small( Mx5/Elise/500 abarth)generally under 2600 lbs

Small( FR-S/S2K)generally between 2600-2850 lbs

Medium(GC/M3/G35/350Z) generally 3000-3600 lbs

Large(Challenger/M6/Camaro) generally well over 3600 lbs to infinity!!!!


Out of those four I like only three(except Large). Zdan likes only 2 of them(obviously) and it's his preference. All enthusiast aren't equal. I have never driven a fun large sporty car before but the others I have all driven and loved.

True enough, I guess I'd be pretty general myself because I like all four. I mean, I prefer the first three but I've no problem with a well performing land yacht; mostly because they make up for having to throw all that weight into a corner with tech and brute HP. You know, like the ZL1 magnetic suspension.

And I have yet to drive one of that size but you are so right about the technology in them. I would love to test a M6 or 650i with Sport package. The Challenger looks like it won't be fun to drive though/

Yes, the 1- and 3-series are good track cars. But 95% of BMW trackaholics would recommend an E36 over an E46 or E90/E92 for a track car. Lighter-weight, more reliable, much cheaper to operate.

Not saying that at all. I'm suggesting that it would be GREAT if they would produce a smaller, lighter-weight, *less* luxury oriented line. The 1-series is way too close to the 3 in terms of size/weight/price. And *in my opinion* the 3 has gained far too much in terms of size/weight already.

My point was that they used to cater more to true enthusiasts, offering lsd in every model. Few can afford M-cars, it'd be great if you could buy a 128i with lsd.


OK, overstatement on my part. But like I mentioned above, the E36 is greatly preferred by most reasonable BMW trackhounds over later models for a track car.

Do you track your car(s) often? At all?
That might explain why you wouldn't understand how a Miata makes for a FANTASTIC track car, but a MUCH faster E90/E92, not so much...

Even the RICH BMW guys (18-wheeler shows up with car) I know prefer the E36 over later models for a track car.

They've build smaller more spartan cars before. A modern 2002 would be a brilliant thing, IMO.

I didn't "forget" that at all, my reference to the Mini in a previous post was meant to emphasize the point that BMW *can* build small, lightweight cars, and that it wouldn't be a stretch for them to essentially do a rwd Mini.

No it would not. Not any more than the Bugatti Type 35 hurt the Royale. Or the 2002 hurt the 3.0 CS. Or the Cobalt hurt the Corvette.

Automakers too often fret about this, IMO overly so. I mean, the fantastic an beautiful 206 and 246 Dinos didn't get Ferrari badges, but they are LOVED by most Ferrari enthusiasts as much as or more than the bigger contemporary V12 cars.

There can be elegance in simplicity, and BMW is fully capable of doing it while *enhancing* rather than tarnishing its image.

The BMW enthusiasts *I* know would be THRILLED for them to produce something smaller, lighter, and way less luxury-oriented.

Not at all. Any automaker would do well to have a diverse range that appeals to a broad spectrum.

You have no idea...

*ALL* I'm suggesting is that there *is* a market for smaller/lighter-weight rwd sports/sporty cars, and that, in my OPINION, it wouldn't be a bad idea for BMW to tap into it. They've been there before and done very well!

I don't think it was. Many BMW enthusiasts agree.

Of *course* "people that drive [current] BMW's" are pretty happy with what BMW's have become! Your argument is pretty much "people who like this kind of thing will find that this is the kind of thing they like."

That doesn't mean that there isn't a market for a modern 2002.

Trying to "add on" light weight after the fact is a costly and mostly futile effort. Much better to design it in from the get-go.

Driving an E30 is a very different experience from driving an E92 or E46. There's more to driving enjoyment than "specs".

There's a LOT more to driving enjoyment than track times. A 747 is a helluva lot faster than a Pitt's Special....

If one were going for track times, an E92 wouldn't be the best way to spend $62k+, anyway...


Utter b.s. Modern materials, analysis techniques, manufacturing techniques allow you to hold the line on weight while meeting more stringent safety requirements and adding in "all those computers" (which are not terribly heavy). *If the will is there*. For BMW, the will wasn't there, and the urge to build ever-larger more massive luxury vehicles was.

A modern Corvette weighs pretty much exactly what a Corvette from 1968, 1988, 1998, 2008 weighed. While being at pretty much exactly the same place in relative price and performance.

A 2012 FR-S/BRZ weighs pretty much exactly what a 1989-1991 S13 240SX weighs, likewise as the same relative price and performance points.

If they *wanted* to, BMW *could* build a modern rwd car in the 2800-3200 lb. range, at the same relative price points (or cheaper even) than the E30.

Wrong wheel drive..

I know they aren't. But they should...

Ask Toyota/Subaru.

Beside the point. Toyota builds the FRS (w/ Subaru), they also build the LFA.

It'd be fine w/ me if BMW made a "sub" brand, but I don't think they would need to or should to do a modern 2002 or E30.

Not at all. I just think it'd be pretty cool if BMW got back into the business of building cool small lightweight sporty rwd cars in addition to the fleet of barges.

That's all...

I own an E46 M3 convertible, and it is heavy. Coupes are lighter, but still heavy relative to E30 M3s. In order to please consumers who constantly want more power, more luxury, more technology, BMW has gone that route with all of their cars. The only good thing is that this has left a gaping hole at the bottom of their lineup to bring something smaller, lighter, RWD, and fun to drive to the masses.

A 128i starts at 3200lbs and $32k, so it's not far off the mark. Maybe the next generation 2-series coupe will bring us closer to the E30 weight and fun factor that we all wish for.

That is a ugly BMW right there.

actually i was driving next to a 128i for 20 minutes the other day, stuck in traffic. It was nice and clean, but i just couldn't fall in love with it. Also if it's indeed 3200 pounds then by gosh it either has a ridiculously thick carcass or it has every known creature comfort and airbag known to man, cuz that car is small.

heavy is relative

i have driven shotgun in a C6 at mosport international raceway and yes.. the car is freakishly fast, there is no denying.

i have also had the privilege of driving a Lotus Elise around the track (and spinning out twice!).

if you ever get a chance to drive something like an Elise then even miatas will feel like pigs to you. It's hard to explain.

With light weight comes the need for bigger balls going into corners at a faster speed. Heavier cars with gobs of power can mask a persons fear of going into a corner 100%. They will brake a little longer, coast a little more, and when they step on the gas there is little chance of them losing it because the car already slowed down to a safe level.

but since you got like 400 HP pushing you then that difference in time will be eliminated rather quickly

a lighter car needs to keep momentum, and momentum is scary, esp if weight goes down and tire grip goes up.

The 128i isn't that small. It looks to me like it's only slightly narrower and less long vs. the 3-series, but same height (or taller even). It will absolutely engulf an FRS:

http://i.imgur.com/nyPJ4.jpg

The 1-series is pretty much 95% of a 3-series in terms of size/mass.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES.

I think the next 1- and 2-series are 4cylinder-only models, so it *would* have been possible for them to be smaller and lighter-weight. But the word is that the new 1 is going to be BIGGER! wtf...

At least they're still going to be rwd, reaction from the enthusiast BMW community turned their fwd plan around, at least for the moment...

I agree with you 100%. I won't argue the point anymore with Zdan, it's like slamming my head into a wall over. Nothings getting done, nothing will get through and I'll just end up with a headache.


But on a sidenote Zdan, yes I've tracked my car. Many many times, I don't think the majority of people that bought an SVT Focus had any intention of "not" tracking the car. But have you ever worked in the business side of the automotive industry? You see it's easy to take your stand when you don't have experience dealing with target demographics and showing gains every fiscal year; but the industry is just what it is, an industry. Businesses do what is in a businesses best interest; spending money on R&D for a platform that isn't necessary and as a result won't move a large amount of units is wasted money. A LOT of wasted money.

Would it be nice if BMW made an ultra light, enthusiast tailored sports car? Sure, why wouldn't it.
Would it make sense for BMW to make an ultra light, enthusiast tailored sports car? Not in the slightest.