Estimated Max HP for a N/A setup.
 

Just like the title says, what do you think would be the max hp obtainable for a n/a setup on the FRS/BRZ.

Search. There is at least one 200+whp NA car.

280-300 bhp or so. Good luck finding someone who can engineer that for you though.

On ~92 octane gas probably around 195whp with I/E/H and a good tune. e85 gas probably higher. Keep in mind 195whp is a pretty liberal estimate, most people end up around 180-185, depends on the dyno.

:evil:depends, do you want to do it with a FA20?:evil:

Estimated max hp NA....If a 12 year old Honda K20 can hit 280whp NA, then this one can go for 280-300whp (optimistic but edgy).

I don't see these motors ever touching anything K series. 280-300whp is nothing for them. I know a few guys over 400whp ;)

I just saw a 200+whp dyno from another BRZ today...I'm sure it will be up soon!

I'm asking because countless sources says that this car needs at least 40+ more hp. I'm wondering if this amount of hp (or even more) is attainable without having to go SC/TC and if so what type of modifications and how much $$ would it take.

(btw thanks for such prompt responses)

Definitely never going to reach k series power but for a max effort setup I can see 300

A couple of things I can think out of my head to increase NA power is find the best exhaust/intake combo. After that, you go internally through the engine upgrading the cams, block, head, increasing displacement, lightweight pistons and lightweight anything. I am no engineer nor an expert in engine so I'm just going to leave it at that as a starting point. But like everyone and including myself have said, this engine is too new to know what hidden gem there could possibly be.

But seeing as how high of a compression(12.5) we already have to start off with, and adding the Direct Injection to the mix and barely on an even ground with the K20 that dont even have any of these goodies. I am(for lack of a better word) scared, but hopefully future engineers can prove us wrong that this engine is a sleeping beast! :party0030:

We def. need cams for this motor.

I need to get a spare set of heads so I can drop them to Delta Cams

always wondered... is it possible to swap to a k20? i thought I'd eventually find someone that did, but so far I haven't heard.

Anything is possibly with the right hands and amount of money. Practically wise, the motor might be too tall and you gotta find a gearbox that will allow the motor to be mounted longitudinally. If I had to go through all that trouble, I'd figure a way to put the transmission by the rear axle to get the weight distribution closer to 50:50 or even better rear weight bias which is better than 50:50.

I would be more concerned about the Torque first, not the HP. Generally, anything over 200 HP and More will bring you up to 130 MPH no problem.

However, the Torque is what will move your car. Think about it this way

Torque = Get moving
HP = Top speed.

Unfortunately, to change your Torque from an NA. You have no other options than swapping head, or cams. If not, then go FI such as Turbo or Supercharger.

These cars will be fast, if you can put down 250 Torque at 1300 rpm, and 200 HP

that must be why f1 cars dont want to get moving. in all seriousness, i think that hp is what you are going to want if you want the car to be faster. tq is really nice for daily driving though. i get the feeling that with a drivers car that hp is what is more appreciable in a "drivers" car.

when i got this car, i ended up realizing that to get this car to really move, rotational and unsprung weight removal will go a long way. All my work on the car has been focused around weight removal and replacing parts with lightweight parts. You can get this car really moving with all that extra weight shed. it may not translate to much of a difference on a dyno as far as numbers go but for every day driving and track application you can really feel the difference. ive been able to keep up with some cars that were "faster" than my car and have been able to outpace others. I think the key with this car is not necessarely brute force but more dieting and removing the weight at key points on the engine, drivetrain, at the wheels, etc. for example i have replaced the following on my car, pulleys, driveshaft, clutch/flywheel, lighter weight wheels, intake, stage 2 tune, completely free flowing exhaust to include header, stuff like that and it has made a world of difference. im still not done as there are still modifications out there that i can get that will enchance the car even more from where it is now. My goal is to eventually hit 300whp N/A. is that possible now? proably not without some boost but eventually down the road yes i believe so. I think 300whp of lagless power will take this car to a whole new level and make it very competitive in all applications. You can also eventually down the road proably incorporate a stroker kit or various other engine modifications like cams and what not. And if you wanted to enchance that even further without slapping on a FI kit, there is always NOS :thumbsup:

Each gallon of gas weighs 6 pounds, so drive around under 1/4 a tank all the time :burnrubber:

F1 car is very light weighted vehicle, every little torque count. As I stated before, the F1 car is all about Max speed, and control + Longevity at high RPM to endure the race. That is why they have to compromise Torque (which can be made up by Light Weight) for more HP.

The more torque = the more Strain + Stress + twisting force to the components.

Watch Nameless Performance. They just picked up a second car for N/A development. ITBs, cams, the whole deal.

Great thread! Being from California, I will probably focus mostly on weight reduction! If a stroker kit comes out for this thing, that would be AWESOME! I would love to stay NA if possible, but I would also like 250-300 to keep up with the V8's on a faster track. This car is awesome as long as the road is curved and then on a long straight, you see EVERYONE pass them. As of now, FI is in my future, but FI also means heat!

Try this thread my good man.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17906

Glenn has made ~280whp in his altezza powered ra23 (na 3sge beams engine strocked to 2.2L) and that with an engine made in 1998.

I have a strong feeling that we will see a 280whp na fa20 in 3~4 years. Yah its not short time but hey fa20 is new and we already see good numbers with only I/h/e and a tune

f1 cars are very light but there are cars with better tq to weight ratios (both lighter and heavier examples) that dont accelerate as fast. although there is a lot going on in the way of tires and aero working both for and against both sides of the coin

Sure but at what cost? For the $12-15k it would take to make such a beast (assuming the starting point is the same FA20 we have today) then you'd be crazy not to consider a turbo or supercharger for half the price depending on what's needed.

NA has its merits but it's damned expensive in the big picture. But, everyone has a different budget and set of goals so to each his own.

Lol...

You realize that HP is just a multiplication of Torque and Engine revs, right? So, the higher the HP the higher the torque.

It really comes down to, where do you want the torque/power? Do you want more power down low, or up high?

If down low, you'll have higher torque, but a lower HP figure, because your producing more torque early on in the RPM range (less power). If up high, you'll have lower torque, but higher HP figure, because your producing more torque higher in the RPM range (more power, but harder to produce high torque numbers up high).

I don't know much about f1 engines but do know they rev to well past 10k. I've heard in the range of 18k-20k+. That would have a lot to do with why they don't need a lot of "torque" to produce good power, as those engines wouldn't need big torque numbers with the high RPMs.

I believe Ferrea claims to have built a 300hp N/A track car ... haven't found any more info than that but it was in an interview at a trade show. Built motor though with their upgraded ferrea valvetrain and different cams I believe.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3rBFyOQQgs"]Cosworth F1 Engine V8 20,000 rpm mark - YouTube[/ame]

It's hard to sort through that thread, 80% of it is talking about a totally different engine -___-

Stroked 2.2ish liter engine spinning to 9K...want. Someone do that math, that's nearer to 300whp than 200whp.

And still, even with 2800 lbs 135 torque at 3500 is nothing impressive. Again, HP is for max speed, and Torque is to move the car.

The low Torque is why every person weight count in the FRS 0-60MPH. A big change from between a Driver and + 2 Passengers.


When speaking about car and performance, the earlier the Torque, the faster the car is....problem = Traction. GTR has mastered this, Strong Torque at Super Low RPM, and Electronic systems will distribute the Torque and gain tractions. That is why a GTR can reach 0-60mph in just 2.9 seconds (335 lb/ft @ 3000 RPM @ 3800 lbs weight). But GTR has only 540 HP, therefore in a 1/4 mile it can not beat a ZR1, it can only win from 0-60MPH

Generally F1 would have around at least 250 Lb/ft Torque, but for their weight, high RPM + Clutch ...whatever else, that was enough to just move that Weight without problem. That is why higher HP once the car moving = faster car.

Simply put. Torque at the wheels to Weight Ratio is the most important for a Car. HP will only count when your car is moving. You can have a 500HP car, and have 50 Torque @ 3000lbs...The out come = your engine Died out. If you drive a Manual....try putting it into 5th gear, and have it move....that is Torque. Of course if you were to rev it to 8000 rpm and burn your clutch...your car may move....I never tried, but that will kill your drive train.

Therefore with how advanced the F1 car are nowadays, the Low Torque around 250lb/ft at High rev + friction = Fast car. In our Daily car...the Higher the Torque to Weight ratio at lower RPM = the better

People bring up the 300hp N/A honda motors but from what I remember those engines are almost impossible to drive on the street. I don't see our engines being that high strung of a N/A motor. You'd probably be better off cost wise with a turbo at 300hp than trying to reach it N/A. Just my opinion though since i'm no engineer.

NA hp generally is more money per hp then FI. However if your trying to make your car faster and stay NA there are other methods, namely lightweight parts and new final drive in the diff.

I think its way to early to put a max # on the motor, I really hope to see companies developing NA mods past the regular bolt on's. Im already amazed at how many people have jumped on the FI train this quick.

My point is, it depends if you want torque early in the RPM range, or later. For a track car, higher HP numbers are probably better (as well as higher usable horsepower), as at the track your going to be high in the RPM range much more often. For a straight line/drag strip car, higher HP numbers down low are probably better. Both of these HP numbers are based on the amount of torque being produced at the particular RPM. Yes, torque is what gets the car moving of course, but HP is a "measurement" of the amount of power being produced from the torque & engine speed.

For a daily driver, it all depends on what you want. If you want something with more "useful" power for daily driving, more power down low is going to be more useful to 90% of people. But if you want something to really move when you start wringing it out (like *stock*), you'll want more power up high.

I'm not building my car to be a straight line monster, but somebody else might. The point I'm trying to make, is it all comes down to what the particular person wants and his/her goals for the car. Yes, TQ is what gets the car moving, but HP is a result of TQ multiplied by RPM. So, HP and TQ are directly related, and both are a "useful" number.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgLNO3ThGD4"]Horsepower vs Torque - Explained - YouTube[/ame]

EDIT: I'm not mentioning weight because I'm replying to your point about HP not being relevant. Of course, lighter weight, means a better power to weight ratio and better acceleration, and any person building a "fast" car should take weight into consideration as well.

:iono:

How much money do you have? I think that's what it'll ultimately come down to.

I don't have the car...yet...I planning on picking one up mid June/July of next year (Unless they have something big planned for the 2015 BRZ). To answer your question, I'm planning on budgeting $300-400/mo on car parts once I do get it.

I'm not trying to make the fastest n/a car. I just want to get the the car the whp everyone says it needs (200+ whp). I'm trying to stay away from FI/SC because this car will be my daily driver. I commute ~80 Miles/day and I don't want to deal with having to upgrade brakes, needing wider tires, worrying about failing parts, how much much replacement parts and labor would cost, not to mention the downtime.

You can get to 200+ whp with e85, tune, header, and headerback exhaust. That'll set you back around $3500, give or take.

If you want more than that, you'll have to wait for some additional NA development on this car (ITB's, cams, etc.)

haha yeah, its not how fast can you go, its how fast can you afford to go

That's pretty exciting. I'd love to see a naturally aspirated option that would give us around 10:1 weight to power ratio. 10:1 is pretty ideal in my opinion, for street driving. You can cut a quarter mile in the mid to low 13's and traps around 105mph, putting the straight line performance right in line with most of the ~$30-35k sports coupes while still maintaining the best handling characteristics anywhere near the price point.

It might be pricey, but just for me personally, I'd rather have 270 N/A horsepower than 350 turbocharged horsepower, even if it costs me $6-10k to get that 270. Full exhaust with headers, intake, ITBs, intake manifold, head work and cams with the appropriate valvetrain would get the job done pretty handily, although I foresee possibly needing a new crank and rods if it's done by revving out to 10k RPMs.

Besides, if N/A was good enough for Takumi, it's good enough for me... lol.

Without e85 max 190whp for now till nameless gets it's header out. hehe

I've read a couple of places that the Honda heads just flow better than these, is anyone working on improved heads for this engine? Or is that not something that is going to happen?