Injector / seal failure or Miss-fire codes.. please post here
 

Greetings,

So i know a few people now have had the dreaded miss-fire codes like P0351, like @2forme @fishek @subaruferrucci, and at least one person has lost an engine due to injector seal (or injector) failure, @track_warrior.

I believe with a few of the folks that have gone to the dealer, the dealer has replaced coil packs... others have been diagnosed with bad injector seals (not sure if it's the DI seals or the port seals).

Just wanted to try and gather all the info we can in one thread as i believe seal failure, and running lean on one cylinder, is the root cause for most of the missfire code cases.

So, please post up your symptoms and what if any repairs have been made, as well as the results of those repairs.


Quick EDIT:
So, there seem to be at least a couple issues people are posting about here.
1. Pop Noise (like a cork popping, not pop like a small explosion) during startup or under heavy load. (This seems to be due to missing teflon injector seal, fix is to replace the direct injector seal and the direct injector insulator)
2. Misfire codes due to crank position sensor issue (11-130-13 Subaru Technical Service Bulletin Difficulty Starting, Rough Idle, Cam Position or Misfire DTCs)
3. Other misfire codes

Not sure if #1 can also present misfire codes or not yet, but it seems so. Still looking for a copy of subaru TSB 11-130-13. After we get some more data together I'll try to organize the info a little better.

I believe there's also a TSB for misfire codes. 11-130-13 or something like that. Anyone have access to the TSB docs?

what he said

but i will be going to the dealership today for a few other issues i am haveing

If you want my advice guys as a precaution lay off the throttle if you ever get a code. If an injector seal is leaking it could mean that your can can go lean and kaboom like mine did. I know a car in japan also blew an engine at WOT because of an injector seal and a friend in Austin is having issues with his as well.

I first hit CEL P0351, cylinder 1, while running on the track, cleared it a couple times but it kept coming back.
Dealer also noticed a popping "fire cracker" sound coming from my intake and blamed it on my mods.
I asked the dealer to replace my coil pack on cylinder one and they refused and once again blamed my mods.

I then upgraded my coils to Okadas, on my own dime, and the P0351 CEL went away.
Popping noise also went away except for cold starts.

Took it to the dealer today and asked them to replace my injector O rings and they refused.
I showed them pictures of other owners injectors missing the O rings and he referred the issue to some up level Subaru guy and said I might hear something back in a few weeks and then started describing a multi day process of keeping my vehicle for testing.

On my own I ordered all of the direct injection O rings and seals, once again on my own dime.
I'm considering having my own mechanic replace them - Subaru dealer said it would cost $800.
Given my luck thus far with Subaru's warranty system I figure if my engine fails they are going to blame it on my mods and hand me the bill so I'm better off fixing the issue on my own instead of waiting for a full blown failure.

Given Subaru's low volumes on the BRZ they haven't tracked down many of these issues on their own.
When you point out that Toyota already has a fix they just shrug their shoulders and walk away.
I'm less than impressed.

@CSG Mike and @CSG David might have some input here, they blew one of their direct injectors IIRC.

Nathan

What's mods do you have.. ?
Try a different dealer maybe? They need to prove the mod caused or was
Related to the issue somehow. If you are in the right, then you should call Subaru and get them involved. Tell them to send out a regional rep..

Related thread about intake backfire/popping: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20930

Maybe we should merge the threads together?

My BRZ has done the intake backfire a only couple times when it was cold out and I was doing speedy 3-2 downshifts with a big rev match. Haven't heard it in a while; never heard it on the track. No CEL's ever.

Thanks @mad_sb for creating a knowledge base on this issue. I'll know where to begin troubleshooting if I get P0351 or any more intake backfires.

Our biggest hurdle as owners will be getting dealers to acknowledge the issue with the injector seals and/or the coil packs and not deny warranty work because of unrelated mods.

I'm still not clear how injector seal failure can lead to a lean condition but I want to understand it. Is it because it reduces the pressure at that injector?

My evo VIII had a bad #3 injector from the factory... took me forever to figure out why it was a knocky bish. Eventually i pulled the plugs and shined a bright light down the plug holes.. #1,2,&4 were black are carbon while #3 was barely tarnished and lightly pitted from detonation. #3 plug also had tiny round balls of aluminum deposited on it from detonation, but it was hard to tell a color difference from the others IIRC. I replaced the injectors, problem solved, but 65,000 miles latter #3 piston cracked on the new owner.

Things to note, a car with a bad (not flowing enough) injector will need more fuel trims and richer targets in the fuel maps to reach the same afr as a car that if functioning properly because sensors are placed in the collector they read average afr for the most part.

Sadly it is a PITA to even get to the plugs, let alone get a peak down the plug hole to see how the piston looks, so visual inspection as an early warning system is out unless you have a flexible bore scope.

Also of note, we have per cylinder ignition timing compensation maps. The factory rom has up to 3 degrees of timing pulled out of #1 and #2 under WOT loads. I have not seen per cylinder fuel compensation maps yet, but I would not be surprised if we have them.

Exactly why i wanted to post this thread. It's getting close to header time, oil cooler time, and i have been thinking about doing an E85 tune as well.... So, if this is a material defect we are dealing with, then its a sooner or latter thing and i may hold off a bit before i go any further with mods and especially E85.

If it were just an installation issue then I would go ahead and replace the seals... but if it's materials.... whats to say they won't fail again. Could it be a design issue leading to seals on a specific injector being more prone to fail etc....

taking my car to the dealership to get my door speakers fixed for some reason. but anyways the tech person said they wouldn't check the p0351 because i cleared the code. i was in NC and had to drive 7 hours home and watned to see if it would come back.

but anyways i am going to make a stink about it when i drop the car off if they dont at least look into the issue light or not.

I've heard a popping noise on 3-2 downshifts before too. But I hear them from the rear. Would this be related?

Not likely related, probably just exhaust backfires, which are normal especially with aftermarket exhaust.

Well this is disheartening. Lol

I had this issue with the stock exhaust. First time I heard it it was embarrassing to say the least lol

^^^ This (though not sure which cylinder/coil pack).

I took it to the dealer. They asked me if I had any mods and I said I don't have any mods to the powertrain. They replaced the coils under warranty.

I had one track day after that but was a low speed track and not much WOT and no CEL. I will be on the track this weekend on two much faster tracks. I will see if I get any CEL and report here.

Given this diagram:
http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-B...-BX5qX2z-S.jpg

I believe this teflon ring is the part that folks have found damaged or completely missing from their direct injectors:
http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-9...-9wRfM6Z-S.jpg

Can someone confirm?
Did other folks find additional parts damaged?

Update, others have also found these insulators damaged on many vehicles:

http://bminor.smugmug.com/photos/i-7...-7xGMmXQ-S.jpg

That is O-Ring. You also need direct port injector insulator.

I think most of us replaced only insulators. Somehow, I got one missing O-Ring injector. Then, I replaced both.

OK cool, I have four of the insulators as well.
What kind of damage did you find on the insulator, any photos?

The picture I posted above is where the insulators got damage. The coating was gone.

Did you replace these parts yourself?

The hardest part is replacing O-ring since I do not have SST.

Can anyone describe or have photos of the visual clues to look for? Will there be fuel residue or some other indicator where the fuel injectors insert into the block? Is some fuel exiting past the Teflon seal? You could make a regular visual inspection when you check oil level or something.

FWIW, I talked to someone at Subaru this weekend about TSB 11-130-13. Apparently it replaces a "shim" of sorts for the camshaft position sensor. I guess there were some instances where this shim was out of spec from the factory and can cause vibration in the CPS leading to misfires and also idle problems.

So, what symptoms did you and the others you mention as "us" have?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=20930&page=2

Wow, that really is a pop sound, like a pop-gun or the pop noise you make with your finger flipping it out of your mouth... lol I thought you meant pop like a small explosion in the intake runner would make....

So, without that teflon seal, combustion gases were getting up the shaft of the injector, hence why #1 was brown and nasty while #3 was clean. The pop noise must be that insulator popping out of place under the pressure and that explains why it was worn down on the side.

Any word if the seal did not get installed at the factory or just melted or what?

Did you ever get miss-fire codes?

I occasionally get popping back in the intake manifold during the cat light cycle. No DTC's though.

for interest Toyota South Africa has loaded a software upgrade to our 86, which is to prevent this problem.

you may want to look into this code ZA1JA01G

The upgrade also eliminates the idle drop issue.

hope this means something for you guys.

Which problem? The popping back in the inlet manifold or leaky injectors? :bellyroll:

Mine had that same pop yesterday. First time ever but definitely the same pop. And it happened just once...

this frightens me, I keep getting P300 and P302 codes.

P0300 is random multiple cylinder missfire, P0302 is cylinder #2. I'm guessing yours may be the cranks sensor shim issue issue since you are getting P0300.

What's the heading of the thread wiseass.......
:laughabove:

The SW upgrade prevents the injector issue with the seals, evens out the spray evidently.
Look it up....:bellyroll:

Umm, so far there are several issue being discussed in this thread so a little clarification won't hurt....

Do you have more info on that update? I searched the code but didn't really come up with much. Is that an update for cars globally or just south africa?

21k miles on the car, Perrin CAI is only modification under the hood atm.

This being the 2nd time back to the dealer ship for another DI leaking. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VnFa2IvNs9g"]Frs popping noise when given throttle free revving or cruising, rolling on throttle to pass. - YouTube[/ame] is what mine does in only low-mid rpms 50%> throttle or in N.

Only had 1 CEL, p0351 back a month ago Right before I got the firecracker noise from the bay. This past week I got the noise again with no CEL. Dealer said it was my other DI.

So now they're replacing all of them, with yes completely new DI Injectors straight from Japan, not from the warehouse where the first one was shipped from. I was told today by the GM ( a good friend of mine) in person that I am going to be the first one with these new DI's that should be a "permanent" fix.

I'll post more info when I know more from said above.

Is there a superseded P/N?

^ This..

Also, it may help if people who have had seal failure post the build date of their car...

I've pinged epifan to see if he has a copy of the updated rom mentioned above yet. If he does I should be able to compare maps and see what they changed, assuming the changes are in a defined table.

I know on cold start the ignition timing goes to -15 degrees and assume injection timing is retarded as well to intentionally get a portion of the combustion happening in the exhaust to light the cat off....

I wounder if this is some how melting the seals... or if it is simply an installation issue... the manual is very clear about not scratching or damaging the seal during install. Guess it could also be a design issue... a new part number would certainly suggest the latter :bonk: