The Marginal FR-S Final Review | Part 3
 

CHAPTER 3: THE MARGINAL FR-S / BRZ FINAL REVIEW

This is the final review in this series. It will prepare the way for the next series which will take people through the process of installing testing and evaluating forced induction.

• Street Review: Featuring Harry Cash (Comparing S2000 and FR-S)
• Stock Dyno Test
• Alignment
• Safety Prep for Track
  
• AutoX: Comparing the Driver Variable
• Track Test: Gingerman Raceway

0:00 - 3:39 | Dynometer Test: Testing the FR-S on a dyno and issues we saw
3:40 - 9:37 | Test Drive: Comparing S2000 against the FR-S with Harry Cash
9:41 - 16:06 | Autox: Comparing Driver Variable (stock vs. modified)
16:07 - 27:14 | Track Prep: Preparing the FR-S for track use
27:15 - 35:56 | Track Test: At home but far from perfect



VIDEO:
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Coming Soon:

Chapter IV:
Americanizing the FR-S | Forced Induction

• Massive Project taking the car from stock boosted
• Step by step installation
  
• The cost of performance and is it worth it?
• Parts overview
• Autox Testing
• Street Testing
• Track Testing
• Professional Level Audio Samples of car during transformation
• db levels before and after, inside and out
• Problems
• The fine print, what the vendors are not telling you
• Conclusion
  

Final Thoughts:


After about 100 hours of testing filming, editing this project has gone from being a joke to just a massive time sink.


Engine:

Pros:

• Class Leading MPG
• Eager to rev
• Excellent build quality and serviceability

Cons:

• Down on power
• Sluggish down low
• Runs out of steam easily
• Finicky ECU tuning for head control

Transmission

Pros:

• No issues with vagueness or hesitation when warm
  
• One of the best gear boxes regardless of price
• Solid Feedback

Cons:

• Poor cold weather performance, notchy
  
• Can be difficult to return to center when cold

Brakes

Pros:

• Excellent modulation on street, low dust
• Solid Pedal Feel
• Easy to service
• Holds up well in autox
  

Cons:

• Not designed for any track usage fades fast
  
• Good cold but poor hot bite
• Not suitable for higher horsepower

Suspension

Pros:

• Well composed over all pavement types
• Extremely predictable and neutral
• Ok for track and autox in stock form

Cons:

• Vague rear, sloppy feel in higher speed transitions
  
• Over dampened
• Jarring on bad pavement
• No factory camber adjustment
• All stamped steel and cast iron/captain rusty
• Factory tires are scrap bin quality
  

Serviceability

Pros:

• Extremely logical engineering very easy to work on
• Easy DIY of all maintenance
• Chassis and suspension subaru esque.
• Aftermarket parts galore
  

Cons:

• Lot of steel/iron means rusty hard to remove parts
  
• OEM parts expensive too many back orders.

Interior

Pros:

• Functional for driver
• Comfortable and spacious for this type of car
• Supportive Seats
• Ergonomics
• Easy to disassemble
  

Cons:

• B Segment quality
  
• Poor gauge cluster
• Creaks rattles and poor fit and finish
• Options non existent
• Non standard head unit size
  

FINAL THOUGHTS:

A sheep in wolf's clothing. Excellent to drive, fun and economical to operate. Has all the makings of a great car, but just short of greatness due to cost cutting efforts.
Lacks the power and refinement of modern era sports cars and hot hatches. These responsibilities were left to the aftermarket and owners to sort out.

Decent video, and I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. I'm a bit confused though. You've taken a completely different approach this time and I don't understand why you're still calling it part of the "Marginal Review" series. The first video was was a lighthearted means of airing some of the well documented negative aspects of this car, and the second video was your rebuttal to fanboy criticism you received from the first. Chapter 3 doesn't seem to have addressed anything. In the other videos, you put the car in its place, with some well rounded criticism of its shortfalls. This time, you drove it around an auto-x course against an STX car (which you beat in your stock car), but we never got to hear about how the two compared. We got a baseline dyno, which is fine, but we didn't really gain any new information in seeing the results. The car got new brake pads and fluid which helped it survive the track day, something that would be recommended for just about any stock car being prepared for light track duty. And finally, it got a new front sway bar, but you don't really tell us how the handling characteristics compare to the stock setup, except that the rear end remains "wallowy" and doesn't inspire confidence. And then some new guy comes in at the middle and end to tell us that the car handles great but lacks straightline speed. A bit of a different direction than you were taking us at the end...

I dunno, it just wasn't as coherent a piece as the old videos. I see where you were trying to go with this one, but it just sort of drags on and you didn't really tell us anything new. I don't have anything to argue with you about. Let's get some solid opinions in there, or some entertainment value! The minivan drag race stands out in my head from Part II. Your well founded criticisms in Part I were memorable. Hope the "Modified" series brings some of the good stuff back.

You didn't mention the Strano bar after installing. Have you noticed any difference? Less roll?

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I think the questions you're asking are going to be obvious on the next section:
Of course not, why didn't you buy a used S2000, you buffoon.

Thank you for taking the time to detail what I believe to be true from a less rigorous "seat of the pants observation" after 11 months of ownership. It is a good car, but the results are too diluted for it to be a great car.

Nine years to go wherein I might change my mind.:burnrubber:

Been waiting for this one to come out. Really enjoyed the first two videos and will watch this later at work :thumbsup:

How about a Mustang with a Performance Package?

Would probably work too. The way I see it is if you're going to buy a car that is inherently under powered and you want to make it 'fast'. You're only doing it for one of four reasons:

1) You really like the styling
2) You wanted a fast car, but can't afford the payments of a faster one
3) So that you can say I beat x-car with y-car (i.e. I beat a Lambo in my Geo Metro)
4) You enjoy tuning cars (or paying for someone else to do it)

Truth be told, I like the FR-S a lot. Despite all of its flaws, I love the car, and that's why I bought it. If I take a car like the Genesis, which is faster, and a lot of the things I like about it, and the price, it seems like a great deal, but I couldn't get over how ugly it looked, so I didn't buy it.

If I wanted Genesis performance I would have gotten the Gen coupe. However, that could put me into the first category if I decided to change it, which would ultimately not be cost effective.

There may be a handful of cases where it actually makes sense to buy the cheaper car and dump money into it. For used cars, I'm sure there's a plethora of situations, so I'll stick to new for now.

Originally this was going to be one huge video, I had to break it down into two parts. So I had to keep focused on testing the car stock. A lot of it was purely done so I could say I drove the pants off a stock car, put it in the hands of people who can drive. Now we have a basis for changing things.

It's more of a warmup for the next video which is going to be back to the original series. Detailing the problems and throwing money to fix it. I want to answer the question of, if we had a 32k FR-S that addressed the performance issues would people put their money where their mouth is?


I wanted to keep all that for the next video but the short answer is it makes a big difference, so much so that I don't think changing springs or shocks is needed for a mostly street driven car. Steering feel is much heavier, and the car is much more flat. However the bar needs the bar centering/slide collar redesigned, they are too big. Talked to Sam about that already.

I owned two S2000s AP1 and AP2 been there done that. But I think for most people thats going to be the solution.

Yep that's the point, but when people actually see the costs of doing this I think it will be a much different story.

Appreciate the video and time spent.. But I didn't expect much different from a car in this price range right out of the box and onto the track. Especially one designed to be tail happy.
In the real world, the performance and balance work just fine..
Does more than I expected , descent comfort ,great handling, balanced feel and great looks.. Could use a bit more power.. But you don't really need more to enjoy its virtues as it is..
It was interesting to see a review of the car being pushed nonetheless.. Even though I found it negatively biased overall..

You left out one of the most obvious reasons a lot of us bought the car. It's LIGHTWEIGHT and RWD. You can count the number of lightweight rwd coupes sold these days for less than $30k on one hand. Miata (only if you cold the retractable hardtop) and FRS/BRZ. And neither is fast.

Believe me, if there was a faster version available I'm sure a lot of us would have bought it instead.

Well I hope to find out if people actually would/will.

I must say your filmmaking skills are getting better. You still struggle with a cohesive vision and the shop segment dragged for what felt like an eternity.

And please don't take this the wrong way, but listening to Ben Stein give a dissertation on paint drying would be riveting compared to your monotone drone. You just talk like every day of your life is the worst day of your life. Most people get their heart pumping while driving around a race track and yet you sound like Eeore coming down from a 2 week heroin binge. Are you ever happy or excited about anything?

Still, nothing really of any surprise here. All of the info you presented was 100% accurate, factually but I don't think I agree with your impressions on the rear-end feeling "sloppy". But that's just me.

Not hating on you or the very significant amount of time and money you've put into this Dezoris. I'm just chiming in with my two cents with my usual "flair".

Scott

@OP: Thanks for the review. This part is much better than the other 2 parts of the series (IMO). Some useful bits here, and I can't wait for the next part.

Please make sure to do an e85 tune, that stuff works great on these cars and is one of the best things you can do to this car IMO. That's probably where a lot of people will stick N/A, assuming they have access to it. And with F/I its even better.


Thank you. I've been saying this for a while now. Its a lightweight, good looking, fun, rwd driver's coupe. That's hard to find nowadays, in any price range, really (new). Sure you can buy an hold miata/s2000 for less money, but new there's not much lightweight rwd sports cars.

My thoughts on this "series." The car has proven itself as a best buy for the entire package even with all the shortcomings you like to add all kinds of bland color to.. Your nitpicking on the compromised individual elements of the car doesn't take away from the framework/build point of the car being sound. This board is full of tinkerers and modders who dont mind wrenching to dial everything in to their liking, so these drawn out "wallowing, slow, boring" comments are subjective to your opinionated slanted taste. The stock car isn't perfect.. We get it. :slap:

The fact you're putting more money into the car sings praises your other videos try to hide :laughabove:. This last 30 minutes of "analysis" covers obvious things we all are well informed about... Tires = bad, brakes need changing before track day, you drive better than your friends... bla bla bla.. Have fun modding, but don't try putting a price on "perfection", because you are clearly trying to prove some point that the car you develop is the "one" that should have left the factory. :thumbdown:

Upgraded brake pads, fluid, and grippier stock size tires make the FRS capable of hanging with a stock s2000...what's expensive about that?

^^all that stuff would still be less than the $10K+ sticker price that a new S2000 would cost if it were still sold, right?

Heck, that stuff can be had for about a thousand bucks (less than) if you snag some good deals. The straightaways will still be a problem for the FRS vs. a stock s2000 though.

I have talked to so many people about this car. The most common question I get asked is how it stacks up against an S2000. And for the most part it does pretty well and is more practical.

But then the obvious hits that the S2000 was on the design table 15 years ago. That's when it sinks in how great the car was/is 15 years after design that we are comparing a new car to it.
The same will not be said about the FR-S in 15 years as it stand, I would bet my best underwear on it.

Wwhen you have owned and driven the cars that are either close competitors or cars that are better it's easy to want more from this model.

That's what the next series is about. The most frequent comments and messages I get are:

"What do you expect for 25k?"
"Get a Porsche, S2000, Mustang, Genesis, etc."

I want to see exactly if this car could be better than those cars for a modest investment, or is it just destined to be just another "could have been" model designed around attracting younger buyers back to Toyota.

Ill be a happy man when a light rwd car comparable to the frs can be had for 15k new of today's money.

I always think about you every time I set up a shot, I don't think I will win you over but after the next series is done I think it will provide info and more that has not been available yet, its possible just raw content logically laid out will do it for it.

It's extremely difficult, because after a while of looking at what you are trying to accomplish and what is good vs. irrelevant you realize there are plenty of things some people will never care about or find interesting.
Thats why when you went off before it never phased me because the harshest words are sometime the best.

Regardless, I am not here to talk trash, I want to attempt to back it up whether its a straight up failure or not.

I have no idea why this has never happened. The internet is littered with rumors of b-segment RWD cars like a mini MX5 and similar rumors for a smaller S2000 replacement. This is why the FR-S has always kind of left me wondering where the real players are in this game.

Because that will be the test of how good this car is or isn't.

I'm flattered that you thought of my comments on your previous films!

While I am not even remotely arrogant enough to claim credit, I meant what I said about your cinematography being much better as a whole. It really is. And technically there was nothing "wrong" with your shop segment since all the information was there, (sometimes your mechanic bordered on offensive) it hit all the right notes. If there had been just a bit more editing of some of the more repetitive/mundane parts, it would have flowed better. Still, I am no Stephen Spielberg so feel free to discard my opinion if you see fit.

We've both been around here a long time Dezoris. I should think you know me enough by now that I don't mean ill to anyone (except maybe the stance crowd or people who remove their steering wheel while driving). I just enjoy putting a more elaborate flourish on my statements.:happy0180:

It would be significantly hypocritical of me to refer to your screen presence as "dreary" (it is... sorry) if all I could muster in retort is "you suck". I would never dream of saying something so droll. Perhaps you should find someone with more "energy" than yourself to be a presenter.

Scott

I think it says more about the last 15 years of the industry than it does about the product of it. We can only HOPE that in 15 years the FRS becomes an afterthought because there are newer better cars that can be had for equivalent prices. I bet any S2000 fan would be a bit disappointed at the time if you told them that this was the best thing to come out for the next decade, most people like competition.

My money says this is the best we're going to get, sports cars are on the way out. I had a lovely discussion with a guy working on electronic steering this past weekend, the days of google driving you to work are not far off, hold on to this baby while you can.
:happy0180:

PS I would love to be wrong.

The amount of time and effort put into this video production is truly impressive. I think the OP did his best to put forward an HONEST and FAIR review, which is exceedingly rare to do.

I find it very interesting that ft86club does not find your productions 'worthy' of front page headlines. I guess it's because it's too honest and fair. Videos of guys 'hunting' cripplingly horrible GT3 drivers at the track are more worthy... :-P

Your efforts are to to be applauded. Thank you!

While I'm not a convertible fan, The S2000 is a fantasic drivers car, one of the best built in the last 20 years.

The only problem comparing an S2000 to an FRS is really the price. The S2000 was a much more expensive car than the FRS, and started in the low $32k range new 10 years ago. Inflation adjusted its almost $40K in todays dollars which buys alot of car.

When I look at the FR-S I see a great drivers car but an awesome platform ripe for all kinds of improvements and tuning.

That said, great job with the video.

The S2000 certainly was and is a more hardened sports car and carried a more premium price tag as you mentioned. After this review I took the that extra money too see how far the car can be taken, and its true pretty amazing platform. But still leaves me wanting a factory performance car I dont have to spend mass amounts of time and money getting right.

I certainly understand where your coming from, your reviews give folks a real feel for what it's like to own a heavily modified car and the pluses and minuses that come with it. Going FI isn't for the faint of heart for sure.

curious of your thoughts on the innovate kit as the install is certainly easier.

As it stands on the Innovate kit the devil is in the details.
I am finishing my final review on the Vortech kit, track review and review with Automobile magazing and pro driver spent plenty of time logging and testing now.

The Innovate kit despite its easier install is an import kit. Innovate slaps their name on it, sells it cheaper by making it non-intercooled. The problem with that and tuning it is there is no way to tune and test intake air temperatures because they don't have a place for the sensor. It sits in the factory spot. So all that hot air is blown into the motor with no way to test, monitor the temps

Innovate never tested this and claims its ok to run because they had 3 pre production kits tested and twin screw produces less heat. Thats sounds great but they cant prove that. And several of their pre production users wound up running meth injection.

Now namless is making a sensor to modify the kit to be able to test IAT. So until they sell the kit with the proper sensors to tune properly and they have an intercooled version I would run it as a street only kit if that.

Nothing against these guys or owners but safety first.

Wouldn't the spintrex SC, this particular model used have documented specs for output temps with regard to PSI from the OEM? It would be a known variable to the middleman who uses this particular model so it can be used properly in its intended application. It's not rocket science here.. No reason the final kit maker can't know the output temps of the unit. It will be the same depending on the model used. There are other variables involved.. But the units output temps should be well known up front..

A very capable and renowned aftermarket tuner and FI expert who did some work for me some years back, Corky Bell of BEI told me,
"If you want a fast car, buy a fast car".
These words coming from a guy who is in the business of designing and selling aftermarket turbo and SC systems really hit home..
I eventually followed his advice and spent more time driving and enjoying the sport rather than fixing broken components..
Then I got old and am enjoying something slower .... This car.. And with no urge to mod it..

I was thinking FI after I bought this car, but the more I drive it, the more I feel it is unnecessary and a big headache. Within the next three years I expect to see a more powerful FT86 model from either Toyota, Subaru, or both, as well as some new models from competitors like Hyundai, Ford, etc.

This car is not slow. Its just the last decade cars have gotten over powered, that will change. The '86 is as fast as a Porsche 944S, plenty fast for any public road. The problem is the torque dip so to get the power out of it you must drive it in its power band and that's risky at the moment.

Compared to most 2 door, RWD sports coupes (Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Gencoupe V6, 370Z, Corvette) and most hot hatches on the market, it is slow. It is all relative to what you are used to driving. Coming from a faster car, the BRZ did feel slow to me at first, but I have gotten used to it.

If this data exists Innovate is not publishing.

Spintrex makes the SC, off the shelf or to their specs, I don't know.. It's published someplace.. Has to be.. ?

This is pretty common, and the older you get the more that statement is true. When I got the car I had been on a string of different cars that were ok but never really sparked anything for me. The FR-S was the same way, and I did not want to sell this because there was nothing else out there I would buy. So that's when I just embraced trying to see if I could change it to be better.