86 v 911 (1998 - 1999)
 

With some smart shopping the price would be the same. Looking at the water cooled engine... 996.

What would you do?

Can anyone with experience of both comment?

I have no experience in either yet. That said, maintenance and parts prices on a 14-15 year old Porsche would steer me in the direction of the 86. If you're paying the same for both vehicles, make sure you take into account that the Porsche just might need thousands of dollars of work in the near future.

The cost to maintain that porsche is astronomical. Take it from someone who has a family friend that is a world reknown Porsche mechanic aka Mike Callas. Not to mention you wouldn't want to daily drive the 996 if you expected it to hold any kind of value. What 996 did you find that was comparable to the price of the FRS? Any 996 that is less that 40K is going to have alot of miles, wear & tear, and probably need alot of maintenance work.

996? Ewww.

I decided against the 911 because of maintenance costs for a daily driver. If you're just talking weekend cars, it becomes much more attractive. If you want to spend the money to put an LS1 into a 4WD 911, then it's awesome.

you kidding? You can find dozens of 996s for sale for $30k or less. 996 TURBOS are going for mid 40s now. they're reliable cars though...have won several awards in Germany for that exact quality. however when something does have to be replaced it will not be cheap.

As to the overall driving experience its pretty rewarding and considerably faster than BRZ/FRS around a track. People hate on the styling (I'm not really a fan either) but it's the last lightweight 911 Porsche made before they starting porking them up :brokenheart:

Where did i mention that you can't find them for that price? I said they will have alot of miles. Reading comprehension >you

Also the 2000-2002 models are pieces of crap. The only reason they are cheap is because they are crap and anybody who knows anything about Porsches would never consider one.

There's a reason that these models are cheaper than all others. They were poorly made and full of problems. They are the most sold Porsche's around. They are simply the bastard children of the 911 series.

Lets not forget that if you cannot pay cash for these cars you 99% percent of the time wont get one. A bank isn't going to give you a loan for a car 10 years or older, especially if you have no collateral.

The only 996 i would ever consider is a turbo and that is if someone was twisting my arm. I would only ever get a new 997 or a 993.

My advice OP is to do some serious research into these models. THere is alot of preventative maintenance and maintenance intervals. Everything parts wise and maintenance wise is expensive on these cars and if you're looking to resell the porsche in the future nobody is going to want to buy one that was worked on in your garage. Unless you're a certified mechanic.

996 are quality :laughabove:


$30k+ upfront, $10k from behind... bent over.

996's are good cars. Some of the percieved issues come from the conversion to water cooled from oil. Generally, the 996's were not liked by Porsche die hards due to the fact that the 996's looked very rounded and looked very similar to the Boxsters (aka poorman's porsche). Hence the good prices. A buddy of mine bought a 996 Carerra and spend something around $7k converting it to a twin of a 997 GT3/GT2. Looked simply awesome for like 1/3 the price. Nobody could tell unless you got in the car or opened the hood.

My mistake. "A lot" of miles to me means 100k plus (since all I've owned are Hondas:D ) but you can find 996.2 (2002+) 911s for under $30k with 75k~ish miles on them, a not unreasonable amount. I would agree with you regarding the money situation though; it would be a lot harder to finance a car of that age.

They're not crap though. The RMS issue was pretty serious but its well known so you'd have to be an idiot to buy one without knowing if it had already been taken care of. Saying the 966 is a crappy Porsche still makes it better than most of the sports cars out there.

Of course, unless I needed a rear seat a used Cayman S makes much more sense:laughabove:

I agree with you but it all boils down to personal preference 10 yr old car with 70k miles, for 30k or new car with factory warranty, for 30k. Not to mention the parts on that 10 yr old car will fail sooner, cost more to buy, labor charges are higher, and its going to need maintenance more often than a new car. If someone has that kind of coin to toss around then more power for him.

Before buying my BRZ i was really close to purchasing a Maroon 993 C4 out of orlando with 40k on the clock. But then again i wouldn't drive it daily.

OP my opinion is think of the future when it comes to car buying. Figure out the overal costs of ownerships for the duration of owning the car. Weigh the costs against other cars. Don't get a Porsche because its a Porsche get it because you can afford all associated costs.

Honestly, and I'm sure I'll get a bit of flak for this, if I was going to get a Porsche, I would do one of two things, either A; Get a new Cayman, or B; get one of the older 964s and go with the RWB style. I love how they look.

But honestly, you really do need to look at all of your personal finances, and see if you would be able to afford a new clutch, or some other Porsche component, should it fail. Just make sure you'd be able to balance your budget and afford the costs, should it arise.

Is there a bad Porsche?

I sit here thinking, even that little 914 was a good car.

Sure we say 928, but that thing is turning into a cult classic.


Hrmmm.

The 928 is a piece. The 1st gen Boxster is a piece, and the 996 911 (non-turbo) is also a piece.

The few fun cars I've had in my life were a '67 Mustang GT, '71 Corvette, '87 911, '99 Miata and an '02 Miata. I will say that my FR-S has given me more fun/pleasure than any of those cars. I will also say that if you have the Porsche bug the only way to get it out of your system is to buy one. When I sold mine I didn't turn my head any more when one drove by.

996? Do a search on IMS bearing...
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-replaced.html
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ft_Bearing.htm

Apparently the accepted fix is a different bearing. $600 plus installation.

The risk with the failure-prone stock bearing is total engine destruction!

I was looking at 2002-2004 996s a few years ago, this was one issue that steered me in another direction...

924 too

928 is different, i'll leave it at that.

1st gen Boxster are going to be future Lemon classics. (You can buy them for 2k!?!)

Can't comment on the 996, i never see them on the road anymore nor driven one.

No, this i disagree, 924 is a great car for almost the same reason the FRS is.

Cheap, RWD. Sure, they were slow and a bit ugly but oh boy could you have fun.


Good starter project cars, if the car didn't rust from the inside of the engine...

Found interesting info on the 996 and Boxster IMS bearing issues: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Porsc...946.S.95837230

Towards the end is the good info from the class action suit. Apparently '99/00 Boxsters and 911s had a double-row IMS bearing, and failure rates well below 1% (not that 1% failure rate is "good" for an engine-destroying problem). They went to single-row in 2001, failure rate was 4%-10%. That's a LOT of cars! Failures in 2001-2005 cars are covered in the class action settlement, up to 10 years from new or 130k miles, retroactively. I.e., if a 2001 car had a failure before 2011, the repairs have to be covered by Porsche, but prorated. If bought new and repairs happened at 130k miles, you still get 40% reimbursement, 25% if bought used.

This is no longer true. There are a lot of places, especially credit unions, that will finance older vehicles. Penfed will do it for vehicles with less than 100k miles. I know that for sure, because I asked them about it.

I had a 1987 911 bought in 2008 - 3 wonderfull years. Drove it everywhere. Then sold it while i still had only good memories. Miss that car...

One reason I didn't pony up for a used Porsche is that if I bought a Porsche it would be all I could afford (currently have two cars). And I drive too much (20k miles a year) to have a Porsche as my only car. Operating expenses are just too high.

dammit why do I drive so much?!?!

It wasn't cheep. It cost twice as much as the Japanese sports cars of the day.

Did some quick googling, assuming your talking about Datsun and Toyota, the prices are pretty damn close.

Thank-you all for your comments. Opinions about the 996 are divided which is really interesting, but the points about maintenance and ongoing costs is SO helpful. I can afford all the repairs, but SHOULDN't i.e. have a million other more "responsible" bills to pay... Which brings me back to why I looked at an 86 in the first place... reliable fun, for a little more than the cost of a dreary sensible second car...

I am thinking I should wait until I have too much money and free time (ie semi-retirement) and think about porsches again then, until then.... 86/FRS/BRZ might be enough fun...

I also faced this same predicament when purchasing my BRZ it was down to the BRZ and a 2003 C4S. I could also afford the Porsche and the maintenance, but i decided ultimately that BRZ would give me the same thrills and excitement for a fraction of the price. The Porsche has a lot more frills/oooos and aaahhhs and is an amazing machine. I feel a new Porsche will be my next toy. Personally i'd just rather spend those maintenance costs on other things. Only had the brz a month and loving it, we'll see how it fares in the winter.

Another reason I didn't go for the Porsche was the awful seats. Maybe newer models are better, but I felt uncomfortable, had no leg clearance under the steering wheel, and couldn't adjust them lower. It was awful.

Although I don't own either car, I have driven both and have done a lot of research over the last several months comparing these two specific models because I am also debating which one to purchase.

One thing that I have found is that early 996's are really reasonably priced right now. And that is interesting because the '99-'00 996's are actually the more reliable because they have double-row IMS bearings (as someone already pointed out). So the rate of failure was much lower. But, since all the porsche enthusiasts out there HATE the 996 because it is the first water-cooled 911, the resale value has really tanked over the years.

Although that is bad for people who bought them new, it is great for us today. And in all the looking around I have done, I have seen a handful of '99 996's with <50k miles for asking prices between $22-28k. In my mind, that's a bargain.

I personally would rather buy a used BRZ, but the used market is very inflated because of the extraordinary demand for the twins. It's understandable, because they're great cars and are brand new models. However, you're not going to find any bargains out there. Maybe when the 2014 is released the used 2013's will start to come down in price.

So, for getting the best value, I'd go with a 996 with <30k miles and a history of being well maintained and driven weekly. They're out there. You will pay more in maintenance, especially compared to a new car, but the driving experience is tremendous (better than the twins, IMO). Also, since I'm seeing early 996s selling for the mid $20k pricerange regardless of mileage (examples with 100k miles selling for $22k, while examples with <30k miles selling for $26), it seems like they are nearing the bottom of their depreciation curve. So, let's say they never become a classic, and never appreciate in value. Well, you get an amazing driving experience and sell it in 5 years for a loss of $10-15k. You'd be looking at the same loss for buying a new BRZ/FR-S. In five years, they'll be down to 40% of their purchase price. In the end, then, it boils down to whether or not the enhanced driving experience in a 996 (again, my personal opinion) is worth the additional costs in maintenance and gas over the period of your ownership. If you do your research and find a stellar 996, I think those costs will be low and will make the driving experience well worth it.

Well, it isn't an 86 vs 911 comparison, but I (as a long time lurker) did want to register to give this hopefully relevant opinion.

I've been eyeballing a new BRZ for some time now, and if you asked me a couple months ago what my first choice for a new car would be, I would have said a BRZ, no question. However, a couple weeks ago, I made the mistake of test driving a 2006 Cayman S that was (with everything factored in) about $4-5k more than the BRZ limited (the one I was looking at). Honestly, there's no comparison. Will the Porsche be more expensive to maintain? Absolutely. Is the insurance a bit more expensive than it would be for a BRZ? Yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion, it's worth every penny. As good as the BRZ is, a used Porsche (at least the Cayman S that I ended up buying) is better in almost every way. It has more power without having to wind the engine up near redline (and it still has the instant responsiveness of a naturally aspirated engine), the steering is even more solid feeling and communicative, and the noise it makes at around 5000RPM is just glorious. It's confidence inspiring and fun the way the BRZ is, but the limits are much higher in every respect. The one downside is that the shifter isn't quite as precise as it is in the BRZ, but I can live with that given how much better the steering, brakes, and engine are (and it's a better looking car, in my opinion). Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, a used Porsche is much farther down the depreciation curve, so chances are you can sell it in a few years for much closer to the purchase price than you could with a BRZ (though this is somewhat offset by the higher cost of ownership).

Now, I will admit that part of the reason I may have been a bit disappointed with the BRZ (especially the power) is that I live in Colorado, and the altitude here really handicaps naturally aspirated engines. The Porsche is probably down on power too, but it started with a bunch more, so even with the altitude penalty, it still feels more than adequate. That having been said, when I was looking at getting a BRZ, I was already planning on an intake, exhaust, ECU, etc to bump the power a bit. With the Porsche, the only thing I've even looked at is a short shift kit, and I don't know if I'll even bother with that.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to go test drive a Porsche. See if you fall hopelessly in love with it (like I did with mine), or if it really doesn't seem much better to you than a BRZ/FRS (which are still great cars, but I personally didn't ever come away from a test drive quite as stunned/amazed as I did with the Cayman).

Oh, and here's a picture of my new wonderful car:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9okbzjem7k...2018.44.38.jpg

Welcome. This is some good advice for people in similar positions. Im always a little confused by the $25K vs $50K comparos but for some people it does make sense. This topic has been talked about already... if you know porsches you stay away from the 996

Why? It has beautiful lines, it is last compact size 911, it has unbeliavable performance and i heard that it is great to drive (great steering feel and it is latest full mechanical 911). I haven't test driven it, yet. But yes in the future.

Talking about performance, 996 carrera is little faster in straight line than new mustang 302, so it really is genuinly fast car!

Of course it has engine problems, but it seems that you can avoid them.

996 aesthetically in my eyes isn't very pleasing to look at. I cannot stand the headlights. My soon to be brother-in-law sold his immaculate 996 Turbo this month. The Turbo doesn't look quite as bad due to the wide body and unique rear. Before ordering my 991S, I played with the idea of maybe getting a lightly used 997S(or Turbo) but it never occurred to me to look at the older 996. They're just ugly in my opinion.

If you really can't budget to have two cars I'd go with the new FR-S/BRZ. If one has to consciously think about what maintenance costs would be on a 911 and hesitancy comes up regarding if you can afford it or not, you really shouldn't get.

You would be surprised how similar the 996 and 997 drive. Ive had a 2003? C4S, a 2005 Turbo S and a 2010 997TT. I had 2 air cooled before that.

I took my C4S to lots of track days with ZERO mods, stock brakes stock everything and had ZERO problems. The Turbo S was tuned and had some upgrades- It was sport bike fast. The 997TT was was a great car, better interior/exterior etc but lost my interest quickly(not sure why).

You should have bought it. The C4S is a classic which has held its value better than in many cases the Turbo. It is also one of the least seen modern Porsches.

I know Porsches having had 5. I have to disagree, you just have to find the right one.

I traded a 986 in on the FR-S. the 986, 996 engines have the same issue. The 98 through 02s have 5 timing chains and an intermediate shaft, which the 991 eliminated. The 03-08 have 3 timing chains. The subaru 3.6 has 2 timing chains and is good for 300,000 miles. The accessories on the Porsche are the same as a lot of VWs. My seat backs on my Ceyenne S fell off and the inside of the seat said VWAG. I have been most disappointed in build quality of Porsche from about 1997 to 2008. If I was to buy another Porsche, it would be an 09 or newer. There are 34 fewer parts in the engine. The one exception would be the 996 and 997 turbo. The engine is a 993 core and has an open IMS bearing and therefore doesn't have the IMS bearing issue.

Pelican parts now has a replacement bearing for $165. On the 97 through 05, it is not hard to do. The 06-08 has a larger diameter bearing and the case has to be split to replace, making those the riskiest engines to buy.

John

Most of the 996 have been driven enough to know if the are going to have bearing problems or not. If they are going to blow they would have blown by now and if you want to be safe change the bearing.

I traded in my '99 996 on a FRS. If you buy smart (get a PPO) the Porsche can be a reliable and exhilarating experience. NOTHING beats the sound of that flat 6 hanging out the back or the feeling of cornering when you figure out where you can start applying power.. unless it goes wrong on you.

The real problem with the Porsche? Its not the maintenance costs which are really not that bad. The problem in my opinion is that the car is exhausting to drive after an hour or 2 on normal roads. That perfect steering feel (seriously, everyone should experience it at least once in their lifetime) that allows you to feel every expansion joint, every tiny thing that the front tires experience? Absolutely brutal after a 2 hour roadtrip in and out of construction zones.

Also, because all the excitement happens at much higher speeds and rates of acceleration as compared to the FRS it is very rare you actually get to have FUN with the car unless all you are trying to do is impress the neighbors because you own a Porsche. If that is the case... well, I dont quite know what to say to those people but I dont understand them.

Driving and owning some generation of 911 is a wonderful experience however in all honesty, the FRS is way more fun, all things considered. I know I haven't looked back once.

double post