BRZ vs BRZ STi
 

Let's make some conservative predictions and say that the BRZ STi came out with bigger brakes, lighter wheels, 220hp and a little less weight. But lets also assume that the BRZ STi came out a year later (summer 2013) than the BRZ. Do you think it would be worth it to wait another year for the BRZ STi over the regular BRZ?

Depends on what you're looking for in a car. I figure they're going to slap at the very least another $5k onto the STI which I don't really want to pay. I'm ready to buy a car this year and so I'm going with the BRZ now, just have to decide whether I'm going Premium or Limited, which will depend solely on price.

STI is still unofficial but after after showing 2 different concepts the intent to build is obvious pending success of the base model. My sights have been set on STI/TRD versions ever since hints were dropped about them. I'm not aching to dump $27k in a hurry; I'll wait for all my options to be laid out. With another year of saving I'll be able to afford more as well. I expect something good for it to be worthy of garnering the STI badge.

I'm very curious to see the STI...they promise weight reduction, which is nice to have from the factory. When you strip stuff out yourself and replace it, you are paying twice: Once for the originals, and one more time for the replacements.

I hope the engine gets something more than just exhaust replacement, because that would not really be worthwhile, and I would probably be itching to have stuff replaced. But then again, if you have the engine open and you're swapping out internals, might as well go all the way.

The STI probably will come with bigger wheels and brakes which I'm not sure are really necessary, but I guess wheels aren't too expensive to swap and having a spare set is a convenience of sorts. If the STI comes like 1 inch lower stock, that would be AWESOME. Perfect ride height IMO.

I also hope they don't try to add a massive wing, but I feel like this is going to be inevitable.

As long as they don't charge you 5000 dollars for an "STI" badge, mufflers, and some lightweight panels, I think the STI version would be worth considering. I hope they get it right and add better components in a way that makes the most sense from the factory. Better mufflers would be an example of a stupid upgrade, because the factory system will probably still suck. Lightweight body panels all around though? Yes please!

:/ unfortunately the current STI pricing is roughly around that mark no? WRX -> STI is a bit... high lol.

i will go for the sti provided they do something to the engine that is not easily reproduced. something like a boss302 or type r, where they add diff cams and tuning that you cant/wont want to do to a new car. the suspension and weight can be modified easily so i wont be too impressed if it just weights less :/

Even if the STI comes with just suspension, wheels, aero, and breather mods, I always end up doing those mods anyway. I'd love to spare myself the trouble so that once I drive the car off the lot, it's already DONE.

The First 86 cars may become appreciating assets if the winners preserve them and a cult following ensues. That would've been my only reason for registering on First 86 but I didn't because if I won, I knew I'd regret not giving myself the option of the better all around versions (STI). A completely stock BRZ STI could be just as highly desirable (if not more) 20 years from now. Or it ought to be more fun to wring out over a First 86.

I have a feeling the STI upgrade may be similar in proportion to the NISMO upgrade. Question: Has anyone here cross-shopped the 350z or 370z against their NISMO versions?

^Yeah def. want bigger brakes. Makes a huge difference even for everyday safety.

As Buggy pointed out, they can really jack the price up when going to an STi. Every now and then I think about getting a WRX STi but then I look at the pricing. I'm very interested in trading my wife's Legacy in for a BRZ (we'd keep my WRX). I'm interested to see what the STi offering will be but I doubt it'll be worth what they'll ask for it (to me) and it'll probably have some big silly wing on it that I would have to get rid of too.

Oh good, more decision making based on fabricated speculation.

Bigger brakes just adds more weight, if the car is light enough why put heavier brakes on there?

Everyday safety? You doing top speed runs? If they can lock the tires or engage the ABS, then they are more than sufficient.

The STi version will not be only slight upgrades. SOA does not slap the STi moniker on just anything. If i had to guess:

Brembos
Suspension
Turbo

At a minimum.

-mike

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Instead of saying "bigger" brakes a better word I should have said is "better" brakes. Better brakes w/ ABS is still better. The '03-'04 G35 sport package Brembo brakes were smaller than the non-branded G35 brakes that replaced them for '05-'07 but better because their pistons chomped down harder (a reason why '03-'04 are sought after by G35 shoppers which they nicknamed the "Brembo editions").

But surprisingly the none-Brembo later models have better stopping distance than the old Brembos. I'm sure repeated hard braking on the track will favor the Brembos but that's not my point. If brakes are powerful enough to stop the car well repeatedly why complicate things by adding more pistons and weight? Remember the NSX? It only had twin piston calipers but was enough for a stock NSX power and weight. The right tuning is better than over tuning.

This is one of the most absurd posts I've ever seen.

^Rather than trolling why don't you say something intelligible and edumacate me. I've never done extensive research nor bought aftermarket brakes before. My only experience is that the G35 was the heaviest car I ever owned but had the best consistent stopping power I ever felt. So flame my enthusiasm. :mad0259:

I don't want just any big brakes... but brakes tuned and selected for the STI moniker. ;)

Irrational or not, I think the car would have to have something closer to 300hp (250+) for people to pay over 30K for a STI variant.

You drop the weight, add things like CF, and put out 260hp+ and that's Cayman territory and it will be priced accordingly, i.e. closer to 40K.

And then it becomes a car that Toyobaru didn't intend it to be.

Big brakes don't always equal better stopping distance. Most people think they stop shorter because most BBKs use more aggressive pads with higher initial bite than OEM pads. Just upgrading pads and fluid will give the feel most people want out of a BBK for the street... for frequent track days, a BBK may be needed like in my avatar.

Most people assume bigger brakes, and more pistons equate to improved stopping distance. Realistically this isn't true, at least at face value.

The stock brakes will be more than capable of bringing this car to 100 - 0 very quickly. In fact they will be powerful enough to full lock and cause ABS to kick in. Because of this, I would not expect a BBK to help decrease stopping distance at all.

What upgraded brakes will do is this;

Bigger brakes and better pads will allow for improved cooling/heat dissipation. That means that brake fade will be less of an issue (only helpful if you track your car aggressively).

More pistons don't increase stopping power, instead they giver better feel and more even pad wear. This is helpful, but will not be that noticeable in a non track car.

For most car enthusiasts the best stopping mods you can do would be better tires, better brake pads, better brake fluid, and possibly some practice/training. a true BBK, costs 5k+ and is purely cosmetic unless you are on the track.

350lbs for all of that? You must be crazy. I would venture to say 100-150lbs instead for a weight total of 2870-2920 lbs.

FA20 turbo=50-70 lbs heavier
STI sport pkg=30-40 lbs heavier(Hyundai's Rspec is 40 lbs heavier than base)

Remember the wheels would be lightweight and the brakes probably weigh 10 lbs more. Suspension probably wouldn't add much weight

Of course it's all speculation but don't under estimate the weight when you start adding them up from here and there. Don't know if you ever held a turbo in your hands before but it's pretty damn heavy.

Not to mention the very heavy cast iron manifold, which would be even heavier on this car compared to an inline 4 manifold which are plenty heavy enough.

Why don't we ask a Subaru guru about the weight of a Subaru stock turbo then.

:thanks:

My take away from this is bigger brakes are not always better. But even pad wear is always good, regardless of track or street. More durable parts>less durable parts. With all other things equal (tires, pads, fluid, skill) I still say better brakes (not necessarily bigger) can make stopping and maintenance better but would not be justified unless there is an increase in weight/power...

This assumes there will be an increase in power. Hints have been dropped on that happening. In a Top Gear Magazine review Subaru engineer Masuda-san asserted the BRZ will never see factory forced induction because they would have to add chassis reinforcements (read: weight) thus abandoning the "handling delight" essence of the car. But he did say, "We can fit tougher valve springs, and that would allow the BRZ to rev much higher, maybe to 9,000rpm."

If STI has a bump in power, I would expect upgraded brakes.

I like the idea of 9K RPM.

It proves my point, doesn't it? STI/Evo brakes are small compared to Ferrari and some Porsches.

It depends on what you drive, but generally, and with all things being equal, BBK will not stop quicker than stock. I have a difficult time finding the link, but StopTech has a few white papers that give an in-depth explanation why. That said, I can tell you from my own testing using Carbotech AX6 brake pads, Motul RBF600, and SS lines my tC has the same 60-0 stopping distance with stock brakes as it does with my current Wilwood BBK.

So to the person who said you'd need 300hp to sell >30k, Honda S2000? Maybe it was a bit overpriced but if it was say 30k msrp that would be a killer deal.

On that note, if they use lighter valves (maybe hollow stem?), slightly bored out, slightly longer rods (probably needs a smaller stroke and crank to make this work), to give this car say 240hp stock with better response due to lower rotating mass, and then do a composite (not CF, I wouldn't want to waste so much money, hopefully like GRP or something easy to replace) trunk, quarterpanels, roof, and hood, well engineered spoiler, a true rear diffuser that is not blocked by the muffler and suspension (please make the rear bumper longer for better aerodynamics if you must...function over form!), to cut weight down to say 2600, that would be a pretty strong sell at 30k IMO. Not the brute force of a 370Z or Mustang, but a lot of careful, good engineering.

Oh and I hope they don't do something stupid like bump the final drive up like crazy the way they did on the WRX STI. No one needs gears that short. If they use a higher primary reduction, then the 6th gear better keep at least the same rpms, because I for one do not want to hear a loud engine droning at a mere 60mph (and burning a ton of fuel).

Oh and a slightly lower ride height stock might be a good idea for them, considering how nearly everyone finds the giant wheel gaps hideous. Basically, sell to the public what most enthusiasts want to do to their car anyways, plus a tad bit more power. A car that is what the magazines and overly optimistic people hoped the BRZ could be, but couldn't because of price point.

:clap:

The weight of an sti version will not be significantly heavier than the NA version in my opinion.

The larger brakes will be heavier but the calipers will be lighter (AL) v. Steel. So it will be a wash.

Forced induction will be there if it is an sti version. 2.0T putting out 300hp is my bet.

-mike

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In first for the
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Subaru reps repeatedly said there will NEVER be a turbo version of this car. Subaru came out with the Impreza "tuned by STI" in Japan about 2 years ago, just had suspension mods, bigger brakes, lighter weight and special colors and rims, still N/A. That's what we're likely to see if they even bother to make an STI version. Brakes will be handled by the aftermarket, not enough reason to buy a new car. Only way I would buy an STI version is if the car had things that the aftermarket can't do, like:
Find a way to squeeze another 30-50hp out of the N/A motor with better internals
Raise the redline to 9k
Carbon Fiber roof

Why would you make a claim that bigger brakes make a huge difference for everyday safety if you've never bought aftermarket brakes before? Brazenly making stuff up based on a "bigger brakes = stop faster" theory?

The only time I would consider upgrading the BRZ calipers is if I was actually racing. I mean beyond HPDE duty. Even then, you're up against the mercy of class rules. Pads, fluid, lines and you'll be at the limit and saving $5k.

^If you read one of my earlier posts I admitted my intent was to say "better" brakes, not "bigger" brakes. You came back a bit late to the party. Constructive discussion has already settled w/ non-trollers.

I have no interest in an aftermarket BBK. Only interested in what the STI package entails and there's no reason upgraded brakes alone will add $5k to that package.

The weight increase from sliders to fixed brakes is the rotor. For instance, the WRX has (or at least mine does) 290mm front discs with steel 2pot sliders whilst the STI has 328mm discs with aluminum 4pot fixed calipers. The difference between calipers is negligible while the difference between discs is substantial. Big brakes always weigh more. Furthermore, aluminum fixed calipers are not always better than steel fixed calipers. Aluminum calipers sometimes flex under pressure (I believe Nissan had this problem on their AL 4pots units on the Z32TT back in the 90s).

In 2008 the WRX went back to sliders. Only the 2006/7 models got the fixed 4/2pot units.

For most users an aggressive street pad, higher temp fluid, and lines (arguable) will be enough. Won't stop the BBK bling-bling crowd from buying them though.