Perrin Exhaust claims, fishy????
 

So tonight I was planning on making my exhaust purchase and had it narrowed down between two choices, the borla or the perrin (non resonated).

I was looking on Perrins site and noticed I could also get a front pipe as well. Perrin claimed roughly +7hp for the catback and then another 5+ for the front pipe as well. I was thinking "sweet, maybe I should get both".

Then I looked at the dyno charts on Perrins website for both.
The dyno charts did not look right. I was seeing the same gain on both dyno charts.

Their catback dyno is a comparison of stock exhaust and their exhaust showing 165hp for stock vs 172hp for theirs.
http://www.perrinperformance.com/ass...back_large.jpg

Their front pipe dyno is a comparison of their catback only vs their catback plus the front pipe. Their catback shows 167hp and their catback plus front pipe shows 172. http://www.perrinperformance.com/ass...test_large.jpg

Why are the hp numbers and graphs almost identical between the two??
Maybe I am misunderstanding something so if anyone from Perrin sees this could you please comment?

Dynos were done at different times under different conditions.

There is a margin of error.

You're talking about a difference of 5 peak HP between the two "catback runs". Those to things can easily cause that.

Different day different results

They explain the results in Jeff's blog

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/br...n-and-proving/

Perrin........LOL

What???

I concur. Perrin is one of the best exhaust out there. Plus... MURICA'

Also keep in mind they use a dynapack. It's a dyno that measures horsepower a bit differently because it doesn't account for rolling resistance or load. They are usually called "sales" dynos because of their generous nature. Great for tuning, though because they give very consistent results.

The fact that they are showing a dyno of the front pipe with the cat back is pretty good. It shows they aren't doing 'ricer math' with the number. I'd look at nameless myself, but I don't see anything wrong with those dyno graphs.

Yep, they address this issue in their blog:

If you're worried the Perrin CBE doesn't make the power it claims, here's a 3rd party test from DSport Mag, should help put your mind at ease:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2...e+%2825%29.jpg

Thanks for the updates.

The blog helps explain a lot and so does the DSport Mag article.

So now I will ask this, if the blog is correct and the ECU is in fact limiting tourque and hp, does this mean that no matter what mods I do to my car I will hit a wall unless I get a tune?

The stuff makes power, its design is dyno driven and dyno proven

what more can I tell you?

Not every shop making a system can say that. I can run anything I want to make power. There just isnt any other option that makes sense from a design standpoint for me, so this remains our holy grail...

yes, getting a tune will unlock power adding an exhaust alone wont

That's my understanding. The ECUTek flash removes the load limits, speed limits, raises redline limit, etc. Without the tune, you aren't getting the most out of your mods.

Ya sometimes the dyno graphs can be confusing because they were not all done at the same time. This is a good example of that. We did the catback results one day, (very repeatable), then the next did the front pipe stuff.

The other slightly confusuing thing is the numbers you see in the boxes, this just represents where the cursor is at on the software. You can see that we didn't compare the peak power on each run, but rather areas we thought were important.

What is boils down to is the variance in HP on the car. We have see this be a huge factor for showing dyno results on things. In fact I experienced this last weekend tuning. I was making 193 WHP on our NA car and the next day it was down about 10 HP. At least until the engine got about 20 pulls into the day and got fully warmed up. Oil temps are key to making power. HP is lost until the oil gets to about 80-90C, then then engine is good and happy. Then it seems to loose power as oil temps go above 105C. Here is a dyno graph showing the huge variance in HP as a car that is fully warmed up, goes through about 14 pulls on the dyno.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/wp...k-oil-temp.jpg

More info about why you want an oil cooler can be found here!

If you have more questions about this, let us know! Also check out the blog, there is a BRZ section that has more info as well.

"Ricer Math" :lol:
I LOVE THAT!

To those of you who don't know what Ricer Math is, it is when someone has this kind of logic.

"Dayum Dawg! I got like, 10hp wit ma new exhaust! I got 8hp with ma intake! I got like 10hp from ma phat-as-fuk headers! And ma dope-azz tune got me 20hp! My ride is now kickin 48hp more to dem wheelz yo!"

If you or someone you love is using this logic, or speaking in this manner, please save a life and dial, 1-800-DUM-RICER and get the help you need!

Scott

LOLOL

I'd like to see a poll asking how many of us had a similar thought process when we were younger.

Needs a larger wing, preferably a 10 foot spoiler with 20 stickers.

I did forget to mention the last sentence which would have been;

"...and now I'll run 9's!"

Scott

Scott,
I am not sure I follow? Are you saying that mods added on at the same time make less power (the 'ricer' is over estimating)? More power (mods work well together and the 'ricer' is being too conservative? Or general claims about mods in general?

My personal car picked up about 45 RWHP (this is with my dyno sheet compared against many stock LS1 engines) with my mods (headers back, intake, and tune) Is it dumb of me to say I gained 25 from the headers, 10 from the intake, and 10 from my tune?

Seems like sound logic to me. Especially based on dynos that others have conducted.

Fair enough question.

The basis behind "Ricer Math" is say, for example, a header installed on a stock car with not other mods gives 10hp. And then an intake gives 10hp gains on a car with no other mods. If you were to install both mods on the same stock car at the same time, that does not mean that you have just gained 20hp. It will likely be less, more like 15ish at best. The reason for this is because of the volumetric efficiency of the engine and how it is affected by different bolt-ons. Most of the variance is within the error-threshold of most dynos and moot point at that.

For example, if you looked up the expected gains on the Nameless header, Perrin Header-back exhaust and Perrin Intake and simply added them together, that would not accurately reflect your end result if you installed all of them on a car. People who routinely build cars know this but there are many who don't. Usually the newbies/ricers/posers/(insert stereotype here) whatever you would like to call them. Its all in jest and not to offend anyone.

Scott

Scott

Here is my 2 cents on it.

Guys, we have a naturally aspirated 2.0L car that is pretty maxed out from the factory. Pick the exhaust that you enjoy the sound and visual appeal, because you aren't gonna notice the performance gains anywhere but a dyno.

It's a different story if you go FI, but bolt ons without a tune or cams won't make much a difference.

The Perrin exhaust is my favorite sounding exhaust.

I don't think our stock header is maxed out from the factory. It's maxed out for production and cost. It's nothing but restriction.

I'll agree, the rest of the exhaust doesn't matter too much, but I think your header choice will influence your power the most right in the most restrictive part of the exhaust, then a good OP/DP solution.

Yeah but in comparison, headers are seeing what? 12whp max with supporting exhaust, 15-18 with a tune. Regardless what I've seen done, 190-195whp is it without going FI or changing the VE of the motor with cams, etc...

Not gonna be very noticeable when stock dyno is ~170

I agree with your numbers but I completely disagree with how it would feel. On a heavier car it might not be as noticeable, but even on something this heavy it's still very noticeable.

If you don't think you'd notice it, that's cool. But man, you don't need to be such a downer.

Not trying to be a downer, merely backing my point of picking an exhaust based on looks and sound instead of "this one gains .82 more hp"