Confusion about front sound stage
 

I see many examples of people using high end 6.5 component sets and drop the tweeter in the factory midrange location.

I may be old school, but I think this violates four rules:

1. Tweeter is too far away from woofer (possible cancellations around x-over point)

2. Tweeter is off-axis with woofer (cancellations/phase issues)

3. Tweeter is reflecting off windshield (reflections change response curve)

4. Tweeter is off-axis with listener (higher frequency details are lost)

Yet I see people putting some very expensive equipment in this location and being very happy with the results.

Can anyone explain to me why that is?

Would placing the tweeters in the a-pillars and aiming across to the driver and passenger yield much better results?

You will find most people either don't care about staging or don't know whats wrong or right. With DSP tho, all of the things you mentioned can be fixed or at-least made much better.

I do think that with some tuning using a 2 way set with the tweeter in the oem spot is fine for 85% of the people on this forum tho.

As for A-pillar placement, yes it is much better results. You can see my build for one example of that.

Definitely love your build.

I'm going super minimal list on mine, under $300 for the whole system, so a $300 DSP to fix bad placement is out of the question.

I definitely see why you picked the A pillar for you build. If you were doing 2 ways, would you still go with the A pillar for the tweeter?

it really depends on what speaker you will be using. i dont recommend using a cheap speaker in that location. higher end speaker companies like focal build there speakers to work well off axis and have built in wave guides and difusers to help with this problem. not mention inverted domes tweeters and complex crossover networks with a vast array of adjustments. the down side is the staging will be very right to left, but for most people they dont really understand imaging and are fine with it. for those people we use a 30 band eq and use are real time analyzer or rta to get rid of any reflections or bumps in frequencies coming off the glass or any other object in the car. this helps smooth the response and make the car flat as possible. without an eq or an rta its going to be tough to get rid of any reflections.using a dsp with eq and time alignment is always best but not always cheap. check out www.thecarstereoguys.com and see a multitude of speakers mounts like pillar and dash.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4459829&type=3

this isnt cheap but shows options

Probably so, And you could always get a Minidsp. Its 100$.

When I find time Im gonna put some low, and mid priced components in the oem spots to see how they do with full tuning avail.

I've always been told speaker location is as important if no more critical than quality.

I'm using a set of older Boston Components. I'm being careful not to compare what I want to do with other speakers that are available, but with the OEM system that I'm looking to upgrade from. I know that this sub $100 component pair can sound much better than the factory, but I'm also trying to get the most out of them by choosing optimal mounting

MiniDSP for $100 isn't going to break the budget or my space/weight goals...I'll have to look into that and the feasibility of feeding a speaker level output to that system

thats true when using cheaper equipment for sure. there is more room to play with better engineered speakers. you may want to hook them up, then place them in different spots and find what you like the best. you may be surprised on what you find by trying different angles and spots.

install and tuning >>>>> expensive drivers. Physics are physics. You can get lower distortion, more output, better power handling, and even better off axis response from better drivers, but there is a definite limit to what you can fix by spending more. Once the sound leaves the cone, it's on it's own and a car is a nasty place to be for an innocent little soundwave. Lots of glass and hard plastics to run into, inherently poor driver placement, hugely compromised listening position.

Taking these things into account when designing the build can make $80 worth of drivers outperform $400 worth. Failing to do so can mean wasting a whole lot of money on a very mediocre sounding system.

Cheers
Nathan

TBH I have brand new I was gonna use for a project but never got around to it. Id let you have it for half new price plus shipping, just send me a pm if you want it.

As for your components. I think you will be fine to use those. Just start with the tweeter in the oem spot, if it doesn't work out then do some pillars or something then. I mean you already have the gear so why not use it.

Don't take it the wrong way... but if you're not a registered vendor, please stop advertising in our forums. If you're going to make money off of us, support us.

That aside, RTA + EQ + time align is indeed the correct answer. Driver positioning is still relevant, since the setup needs to sound good away from the microphone position used during tuning. Driver selection is relevant to support the positioning (on-axis vs off-axis). Doesn't have to be expensive, just correct for the application.

It takes alot of time/effort to develop an SQ system that sounds good throughout the car. Even experienced guys will require some time to learn a new car.

You're exactly right on all four points, typically.

I too am amazed at how much money some folk spend poorly installing speakers!

I think most of it comes down to knowledge. Secondly as previously mentioned, 85% of people are happy with 'louder' and 'clearer' and 'bassier'.

Staging, dynamics, definition, emotion doesn't really come into it for the majority of car owners, or even car audio fans.

I saw you working on that build! I passed by in my white BRZ and waved. Would love to check it out sometime if it's still in your shop! :D

I've never been a huge fan of having tweeters a long way from the mid-bass. That's why I'm going to try 3.5" widebands in the dashboard. Some of really good ones can be run tweeter-less. With a decent DSP and deadening, I should be able to get very respectable sound. If not, I can always try various tweeter configurations including custom pods.
There's lots of options but the general concensus is that you can get pretty decent sound from the factory locations in these cars.

Sorry to revive but this is the only thread accurate to what I'm looking for and haven't yet found an answer. Most build logs on here seem to be doing something like drop in 4in speakers into the factory mid location, and not seeing much on 2 way components.

I was wondering if there's a general consensus/suggestion for those with a 2 way components, whether to mount the tweeter in the mid vs the stock tweeter location. I currently have mine wedged into the basket of the mid location thinking the slight bit of vertical distance would bounce waves less off the windshield, but I've also read the tweeter location was originally engineered from factory to utilize the windshield..

Currently, I get a bit of fatigue being hyper aware of the distances between the tweeters, like i'm hearing them separately from the left and right. Leaning ever so slightly towards the center of the car seems to blend it all together. Tried eq and balance, no time alignment, but after a while my ear calibration gets jumbled and needs a reset. Thinking maybe using the stock locations, moving both tweeters a bit closer to each other would yield a more centered sound, if it works like that?

So leaving it up to the experts to sway me, any opinion on what is better, or if it makes much a difference at all?

I ran into a lot of issues personally with the windshield audio reflections. I ended up settling on using dayton 3-1/2" fullrange point source drivers for the high end portion of my system. I tried a few different tweeters (air motion transformer, and 4 variations of soft dome) and found that the reflection tends to enhance the more undesirable aspects of typical format tweeters...

Important to note here is my preference for extremely laid back high end. I've never been happy with tweeters smaller than 1-1/8" in vehicles. I've always found they tend to get peaky between 10-15khz, and it makes my ears buzz. I've specifically gone with the dayton because it's off-axis response above 10khz does not have the same peaks as other drivers.

My recommendation for you would be to consider moving the tweeters to the tops of the sail panels to completely avoid the windshield interaction (at least temporarily), or, as i did, abandon typical expectation of driver formats.

In my last car i also found that passive crossovers can sometimes cause significant issues-- i chased a tweeter distortion issues throughout the system for years only to finally figure out that the passive crossovers were crossing the tweeters over at about 1khz to low, and causing them to distort.

The fix to that problem was going full active to allow better manipulation of crossover control .

I should ask, what component drivers are you using?

I'm using 6.5 Infinity References for a simple beginner's build, learning and just trying to make the best of what I have. Went with components because I wouldn't know how to tune crossover points for selecting custom speakers. Also don't want to work outside of the factory dash grille as I want everything looking oem. Would you have any other configurations with these limiting factors? Was thinking maybe trying the mids location but angling it toward to driver seat instead of straight up.

i completely understand wanting to look oem.

i've always found infinity tweeters to be some of the harshest around. coupled with the dash/windshield effect, i can see how it can easily tend to make it even worse.

it wouldn't hurt to try to place them more directionally towards you from the mid location. though what i believe is happening is the triangular shape of the windshield/dash is horn loading the dash drivers, so i don't expect any dramatic improvement.

horn loading, if you're not familiar, in very laymans terms, basically makes the speaker to more efficiently push a small amount of air around in a tiny space directly near it, and then that tiny amount of air moves a larger amount of air past it. in general, it makes the speaker more efficient(louder with less power required to make it louder), extremely directional, and can emphasize very specific frequencies depending on the shape of the horn, the materials used for the horn design, as well as the speaker used.

if reorienting them within the dash doesn't work(i'm not really expecting it to), there's really only 2 options:
1. consider replacing the tweeters with a different model.

2. using the gear you have, consider alternative mounting locations.

in this case, i would add about 6' of wire off the crossover tweeter output, get some 'blu tack' or similar, and tack the tweeters in various semi-viable locations for a few days each to feel out the difference.

--try the top of the windshield on the headliner, firing forward(next-best aftermarket concealed location), alternatively on the windshield firing down
--mounted on the A-pillars, firing across the dash-play with mounting height from touching the dash to at the top of the pillar(i've used this method, least desirable due to visible components, but relatively effective)
--at the top of the door panel (least desirable, but extremely common)
--at the top of the door pull(again, not great due to visibility)
--over the door speaker(not ideal to install exposed, but ideal for simulating installing the tweeter behind the grille without all the hassle it would actually take)

after that, it's a matter of balancing the oem look you want with the results you decide sound the best.

So what I'm gathering from this thread is to not use the factory tweeter location and putting the aftermarket tweets in the A pillars firing across the dash would be much better for SQ/Staging?


I'm planning on running Morel Virtus components. HU will be a Kenwood 998 Excelon. I didn't plan on running a DSP. The Kenwood has RTA and Crossovers. Was planning on running active using the HU only.

It does take a lot of tuning and it was certainly a learning experience for me. While I went with OEM Audio in my FR-S, I spent lots of time and $$ figuring this out in my Sequoia years ago.
With 2-ways, when you separate the tweeter and mid-bass driver...........you need to be prepared for what that entails. The supplied crossovers on a component system are not built for this. You will get a very "tinny" one dimensional sound stage. After going through many off the shelf component sets, some expensive, some not, I finally landed on a pair of Scanspeak revelators and a set of HAT ring radiator tweeters. I had crossovers custom built, but ended up swapping some of the components when I would change drivers. My tweeters are crossed at 5K and the mid-bass drivers at 5.7K (12db slopes, iirc). That overlap is what is necessary to overcome the separation of the tweeter/mid-bass. I ended up contacting the owner of HAT to get some guidance on this arrangement, and that knowledge is what allowed me to finally be satisfied with the results. Time alignment between the two drivers is not needed to achieve results, but time alignment between L/R and sub channels is critical to building the sound stage you desire.

Good luck on you build.

I'm guessing I'm just not used to hearing what a proper sound stage is supposed to sound like. I previously owned a 2013 BRZ and had diamond audio components installed with the tweeters in the factory location and it sounded good to me. Guessing in that case I just don't know what I'm missing.

Its all relative. It is hard if you have no reference point. I get more frustrated with the horrible recordings of most of today's music more than anything else.
So even if you have a system capable of amazing reproduction, it is lost on the poor quality of the source material readily available.
I used to be really involved in mobile audio and did a lot tuning and testing.....I guess my expectations are different than most.

The bottom line are your ears. If you are satisfied and happy with it.......that's what matters. My experience with my other vehicle was borderline obsession! I told myself I'd never get that involved again, which is why I went with OEM audio on the FR-S. They have done a good job with their systems. The environment of the BRZ/86 cabins is hard to deal with to begin with.

Cheers!

please don't take my post as universal recommendations. they are simply alternatives because he indicated the initial plan in the factory location just ain't right for him. there is no single 'right' method. the best method is the way that works for you. he has some specific gear, and i listed those as options because he initially indicated before that he's not extremely interested in experimenting with other brands.

my car, i run a pioneer prs80 head unit, with dayton 3-1/2" fullrange point source in the oem dash location crossed over at 200hz(the max of the non full active mode, i would prefer them to cross at 500hz), dayton 7" esoteric midbass in the doors high passed at 50hz, and a peerless 10" aluminum xxls sub lowpassed to 100hz.

i've done some very minor eq'ing in the high end only. no more than +/-2 notches on the radio's eq. i've overall very happy with the final sound.

but that said, while doing my pickup truck (same radio, dayton 1x5" highs, peerless hds mids), i ended up installing a dayton dsp408 because the dayton 1x5's had to be crossed over at 500hz, or they'd buzz.

after going through the effort, it's something that i'm going to plan to include on any future builds. looking at the kenwood you said you're using, it appears to have very similar crossover capabilities as my pioneer, which is why i would highly recommend a dsp of some sort. the amount of tuning capabilities is well worth the cost of entry and hassle of installation for it.

in the same build, i attempted to use a soundstream low profile sub--i knew it was risky, but i needed the space capabilities... unfortunately, too many corners were cut in it's build quality, and the only way for it to function at all required heavy eq(boosted 50-70hz) and bandpass crossover(24db-30hz hp, 12db-75hz lp) neutering. with the deck, this was impossible. with the dsp408, it took 15 minutes.

@soundman98

Would these be the components you chose for the BRZ?

Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2" Point Source Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--295-349

Dayton Audio ES180TiA-8 7" Esoteric Series Woofer 8 Ohm
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--295-398

Peerless by Tymphany XXLS-P835037 10" Paper Cone Subwoofer 4 Ohm
https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...-ohm--264-1650

And a DSP maybe something like this?
Dayton Audio DSP-408 4x8 DSP
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...audio--230-500

How much fabrication was involved to mount the dash and door speakers?
Did the depth of the 3-1/2 driver make it difficult to drop in from the top side of the dash?

Any idea if the 3-1/2 drivers are similar in efficiency to the factory dash speakers so I could try a simple swap of just the dash speakers without having to separate the amplification/eq channels for the door and dash speakers?


Thanks!

correct so far. of note, the 7" esoteric's replaced some 6.5" peerless HDS nomex drivers. i was hoping that the larger voice coil former would allow for better lower frequency midbass extension. there's not a significant difference, as both contain shorting rings to reduce distortion. personally, i just like the look of the esoterics more, so they're still my preference, but there are cheaper options.

it's actually the aluminum cone version, ordered through madisound, though no longer available easily within the states anymore. it appears a few eu or aussie audio sites have them in stock yet. i choose the aluminum cone version specifically because i'm running it in a smaller sealed box, and aluminum cones are generally more resilient in high compression than paper variants.

yes, that's what i'm running in the truck. minidsp makes a similar unit that some feel is better performing, i choose the dayton version because it was cheaper and had similar features/specifications. your mileage may vary.

for the door speakers, i routed some replacement adapters out of 3/4" mdf, and painted them to minimize moisture issues. this picture is of the peerless hds' installed, but they're the same brackets with some minor adjustments for the esoterics:
https://live.staticflickr.com/3774/1...1a0e0258_o.jpg

for the dash speakers, they're smaller due to the lack of the oem bracket, but fit in the holes without modification. i used some pieces of aluminum bar left over from another project to keep them in place:
https://live.staticflickr.com/706/20...bc446898_o.jpg

i think they're relatively close.

Couple things to note here, assuming my memory of the setup (from reading threads) is right (I've had to postpone my build yet again for $ reasons... which is fine, but I don't have the first-hand experience re-wiring yet)


1. The tweeter wiring is slightly funky and needs a jumper or something for the woofers to work if you take the tweeter out. I think.
2. Sensitivity will only be part of the equation. And tuning frequency response isn't always straight forward... it can work out, but I've seen as many systems 'flat' and bad sounding due to negative summing and poor data acquisition. I've made such mistakes myself in the rush of trying to get something done too quickly.


The door drivers aren't the worst ever, but they have very little excursion and distort really easily. Fatigue in this car is, in my experience, due to bad source or woofer distortion... it's got all sorts of problems in addition, but...


Take your time, learn stuff. Digital makes it easy to keep tweaking.


Also (and especially if your hearing isn't great in the top octave), the 3" 'full range' are a great alternative to going 3-way. Any top end in the dash location is bounced, not direct. That may be a good thing if it's consistent through the places that ears will be.

I have some hearing loss/tinnitus and I think this would be an interesting direction to go with what I'm wanting to do (running a full range 3.5"). I looked up the Dayton full range you mentioned, it looks like it has pretty lower power handling. Did you end up running the 3.5" off of the head unit power?

i'm running everything off an alpine pdx v9 5 channel amp. everything gets it's own channel. so 100w rms each, with 500w rms going into the sub.

i don't pay attention to wattage values. wattage doesn't kill speakers, distortion does in the form of heat. if the crossovers are set so the speaker isn't trying to reproduce frequencies it can't, they can't distort, which can't create as much heat, which can't destroy the speakers.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: