Stiff 2nd Gear actuation when cold on manual 6 Speed of FRS/BRZ? There's a reason!
 

For those who are wondering if it was normal for the FR-S/BRZ 6 speed manual's 2nd gear to be at times, stiff on a cold morning start-up...

Don't worry, it's not a malfunction or a defect. I just got off the phone with the design team for the FT86 which include the Team 86 lead by Mr.Tada as well as specialists from AISIN.

What they told me was that this was a design constraint of two choices.

To make a superbly crafted actuation and interface for a manual transmission that's slick and sporty, with positive engagement feel, the various components were machined closer to that of a racing transmission in terms of clearance.

While that results sometimes in stiff actuation when cold, it is what gives the Toyota 86 siblings, the most sportiest, precise feel when it is at proper operating temperature.

So the bottom line was either to make a shifter with looser feel and have it perform loose and lazy at all temps, or to make something super precise at proper temperature and live like a sports car fanatic. They chose the latter and I am glad they did.

So fear not. It was intended and it was the choice the engineers made, to make this car with less compromises than ever before. See?

They thought of everything! And didn't cater to people who aren't into sports cars. :)

So next time, don't be embarrassed, as this is also the case with Porsche 996 GT3 and most exotic track-capable manual transmissions as well!! Brag about it instead. :w00t:

http://kaizenfactor.files.wordpress....if?w=640&h=372

Great to know, thanks!

Hmmm I'm inclined to doubt that. With current technology a smoother second gear shift seems absolutely doable along with maintaining the "precise shifting." There are plenty of cars that shift well and don't have this issue. I don't mean to sound like a downer but I think that answer is a crock. It just doesn't make sense in an engineering perspective to make something overall better and sacrifice something else. No offense.

This is a common complaint with the RX-8 and NC MX-5 gearbox. Very interesting.

I know gear grinds and extreme reluctance to pull out/put into gear when cold are also features of this modern manual transmission. For a car that put down less than 165HP to the wheels the "race" spec gibberish used by manufactures to play down design problems is laughable.

But in all fairness, this has been an issue on plenty of Aisin transmissions. Fluid swaps help but don't eliminate the problems.

Perhaps, but that was the answer I got from Aisin and Toyota's engineers and not the Public Relations staff so though it is 'unofficial' it may very well be a more accurate description of was/is on the decision table. I am sure they can make it better, but at what costs, and what timeframe? Perhaps this was the best choice, within constraints of a $25,000 car?
I really don't think this is an issue, as long as it operates fine when warm and at proper temperature where it is designed to be optimal.

At least we don't have to play with choke levers and learn how to drive a racing carburetor for engines with this much compression? :)

Haha, Moto you're so awesome. :happy0180:

Meh, doesn't bother me. My Suzuki SX4 6MT doesn't want to get into 2nd (not sure if Aisin makes it) when cold. I think my Celica GT-S was the same. Anyone ever try shoving it into 1st gear while moving faster than parking lot speeds? Shoving it into 2nd when cold feels similar. Maybe because the gear that is most similar and closest to 1st is 2nd gear.

Exactly. Remember, when "warm-up" meant a different set of plugs entirely? It was not that long ago!

In our world, a little stiffness from a cold gearbox is to be expected. Many great cars exhibit this characteristic. Our Supra has been like this since it was new (15 years ago, wow!) and that is without Aisin gearbox or $25k pricetag. Owners of 2000GT probably deal with a bit of stiffness too. (Good for them -- enjoying early morning runs!)

Once everything is warmed up, it will be consistently good every single time, this is the Toyota truth. Take solace knowing some of the finest sports cars in the world have a bit of this. It is part of the experience.

This, we also use the same style of gears that they use which is another reason for it. They knew alot of people would drive these cars hard and they don't want to constantly replace gears under warranty.

celica transmission was like this too, didnt help i was running ultra high viscosity race fluid in it either on days when its 10F i would have to put the car in second turn the car on and drive around the block in second 2-3 times before leaving, then everything was dandy lol...

Or you could be more proactive and switch to a thinner transmission fluid. 3 quarts of pentosin synthetic 75 - 80w and your golden.
I'll even take it a step further. If your in orange county can and want to see for urself pm me. It's been kind of rainy/cold off and on last few weeks.

nice info!
As long the gears don't grind I am fine with more workout to my hands. LOL.

well when I start the car, with it stopped I usually use all gears like 2 times each, and let car get warm before go to any place when It's cold( like mornings, or when car is some hours parked) and that not happens anymore.

That's literally all that engineering is, and all that engineers do, that bold part. You can't make everything better, and you can't make it perfect all the time.

If everything is more precise ... Why does only second gear have issues ...

Glad to hear someone came forward to say it's normal.

When I had a Miata the forums always lit up in winter with complaints about 2nd gear.

When I had a Porsche Boxster S the forums always lit up in winter with complaints about 2nd gear.

When I had a Mustang GT the forums always lit up in winter with complaints about 2nd gear.

When I had a Corvette C6 the forums always lit up in winter with complaints about 2nd gear.

Now I have a FR-S and the forum yet again has lit up this winter with complaints about 2nd gear.

So stop worrying about 2nd gear guys. Just take it easy on the tranny as it warms up and enjoy your car.

Why is my 2nd gear so stiffy when cold? Because race car!

Because the ratio between first and second is the largest and the synchros have the most work to do.

The same issue is experienced on sportbikes where you are most likely to miss the 1-2 shift than any other due to the large spread in ratios between those two gears.

Add manual transmission Ferrari's to your list....not bad company to be in huh? :thumbsup:

I always thought this was a reason, but people don't understand. Everything mechanical in a car is a compromise, harsher ride = better handling = poor comfort. Stronger synchro = harsher shifter. Softer synchro = less durable but smoother operation, and on and on...

I mean, those highly paied people in Formula one still haven't found a way to make sticky tire work good without having to warm them up! Same shit applies to this transmission, it needs to be warm to work as intended.

YEA! why don't those silly F1 crews just run all seasons so they don't have to switch tires between dry, mildly moist, and wet. WTF MAN

That doesn't explain why the gear shifting is balky even after it is warmed up.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Tada's role now involves a LOT of public relations. Only a PR person would say the things he did recently about the torque dip. Only a PR person would be authorized to conduct the interviews and put forward Toyota's version of the partnership.

I suspect his selection for the project was as much because of his appearance, language and public relations skills as his engineering talents. It appears that he is being groomed as a Toyota engineering spokesperson (that is public relations) and probably more in time to come.

Good on him. He appears to be good at it, but I think it a bit naive to view his comments as inside technical info rather than carefully scripted PR.

I don't think @Moto-P talked directly to Tada on this one; he talked to AISIN and the technical staff who worked with Tada.

It's all good...i'm sure it'll be fixed by 2014 or 2015 lol

Fair enough.

As much as people would like the think so, I still don't believe much gets "leaked" without being signed off from above.

I agree with the comments and rationale and would also prefer a tight box (did I really say that?), but it's a cost factor more than anything. I'm actually happy with the compromise.

Whilst the comparison with the 996 GT3 box is a bit irrelevant, I've driven a number of them and none were as bad when cold as my 86.

Thanks for the post. The people that don't get this are obviously new to how high performance and race cars work. If you don't want to grind, shift slow or double clutch for the first few minutes until it gets up to temp. Just like you baby your engine until the oil is up to temp, you should do the same with the gearbox.

Also, all of my Vettes have behaved similar to this, even the latest TR6060 gearbox I have now. Some have been better than others, but none shifted perfectly when they were ice cold.

I will have to disagree to an extent. I am going by prior experience in what was my previous love affair: my modded 2000 Trans Am WS6 6MT Convertible.

It came with a Borg Warner/Tremec T-56 6sp manual. Brass synchros and rated to handle 450 ft/lbs of torque (just like the Vipers of that era). Excellent transmission, but with a sometimes leaky slave cylinder. Only gave me problems twice in 70k of hard driving.

In very cold weather, well below freezing, I never once had any problem shifting that thing in 2nd or any other gear for that matter. It look a lot of abuse too, on the factory fluid. Never changed it.

Now.. On my FR-S, different story. I will only say that switching to Pentosin 75W80 MTF2 fluid "cured" the issues. Previously, I was barely able to pull the car out of 1st and 2nd was a no-go. I had to shift to 3rd instead. I learned to start warming up the fluid slowly in 1st just to get something drivable within 5 minutes.

Not bashing my own car.. I like it now that Pentosin makes it feel better.

My STI also had a difficult 1-2 shift when cold. Same with my RSX. I'd say it's normal for cars with tighter transmissions.

So every car i drive that has morning wood 2nd gear is a race car?

Guess my infiniti I30 was a race car.

Like most things, this "issue" is easily solved. It just costs a few $.

http://www.synchrotech-transmissions..._Synchros.html

"Carbon Synchro History:

2001: Honda introduced the use of carbon lined synchros in the JDM K20 ITR on 3rd and 4th gears and on the D17 Civic 1st gear. I first noticed a carbon synchro on 5th gear in a USDM trans in 2002 on an H22 transmission that I was rebuilding. After doing some research, I discovered that Honda had a technical service bulletin to replace the 5th sleeve set with an updated carbon lined synchro to reduce the shift grind. They have since also used update kits with carbon lined synchros for other models with shift issues and started using them in several late model transmissions."

It happens. My Evo was like this too.

My Yaris has the same issue with 1st when cold, must be because racecar as well.

Well, it's pretty much the fans and the internet information cycle that put Tada-san at the forefront of speaking about the FT86. It wasn't a calculated choice by TMC but rather what happened naturally with the power of the internet and fanbase asking for him, and Toyota simply allowing it to happen based on the demands.

PR or not, and take it however way you wish to take it on this and other matters, about any information sent to me from any engineers or PR group. It's nice to know that they are aware, and have an explanation, instead of hiring 50 lawyers to erase the complaints?

My thinking is that they wanted a pretty precise feel in the transmission which the FT86's 6MT has at driving temperatures, and they've had their own battles in planning against those who felt the transmission could be a bit more vague, but consistent like the ones in modern Corvettes... They just chose the "feel" of the Porsche 911, rather than the American feel. That's all within the capability to create, but one came with a flavor that some like, and other design that they did not choose, which comes with a flavor of a more mundane but less fluctuation on the feel of the shifter.

But trying to keep the transmission very compact and light, while trying to push a lot of power through it (eventually), they, perhaps chose to cut the gears closer and angled the teeth a bit more aggressively to keep overall power capacities in check. One could have a looser and more clunky box to handle the power but it would just have to become more heavier and larger. Something they were really adamantly trying to avoid for this particular car though at design stage.

That would be my hypothesis on this one, without my huge level of contemplation at this point. I also keep in mind that when I say power, I mean not the mere 160 or so net power that goes through this box from the simple engine loads, but the realistic abusive loads that people commonly put in the transmission with modern tires, and kicking the pedal, first-time learners slapping the pedals abruptly, mismatched rev shifts, and dozens of other factors, that put a lot more load and driveline shock, than the small loads that even the modded the engines can put through it.

Funny, Borg Warner started using carbon fiber synchros in their T5 transmissions the 90's
http://www.pro-forceperformance.com/t-5_history.htm
...my 93 Mustang came with them. But this is off topic, sorry.

I actually received this call from Mr.Tada, from a room full of engineers as mentioned located in Japan... While I was driving to pick up my kids. Kudos to AT&T for having good reception and fiber lines for talking to someone 8000 miles away. :)

This was after I listed some of the common complaints about the FT86 to him a few weeks ago, not limited to this 2nd gear thing, but several other things I see, from the voices of the owners.

Thank you Moto-P! You know, now that you say that, I am reminded of an excellent transmission rebuilder who specialized in Mitsubishi transmissions who once explained the very same thing.

Although, I still think there is room for improvement for their transmission oil so hopefully they can focus on that.

LOL! Then again, it uses the same transmission as ER34 Skyline GT and the Z33 right? :)

Would you mind sharing some of the other complaints raised and any other feedback you got?

Also, can you tell them to turn off the stupid "Slip Off" light when you turn VSC Sport on. I don't see why both indicators need to be on the dash just for sport mode. It's a small thing but annoying and should be an easy fix for them. LOL

And by the way, Ichitaka sent a bunch of our questions to Tada-san a while back which were never answered... Can you see if he ever received those? Thanks. :D