Track / AutoX Suspension. Suggestions?
 

Hey guys. Very new to BRZ, coming from an Acura RSX-S.

I tracked my RSX for the last few years with Progress Coilovers and loved them. However, they don't have a kit for BRZ yet.

So, for the purposes of AutoX and full track use, what are your recommendations?

I don't care about street comfort, I know very little about spring rates, and I'd like to keep it around $1500.

I know i'll probably hear that KW V3 is the way to go, but gawd they are spendy.

I appreciate your help in advance.

Thanks!

What kind and what size tire do you plan on running?

- Andrew

Well, I plan on jumping into STX, so probably a 235/40 on 17x8's

If you could stretch your budget a little bit, you could get on the RCE Tarmac II coilover preorder deal. Based on KW clubsports, but with a warranty and a much better price. Focused on track and auto-x performance but still very much streetable.

At the 1500 mark you have a few options. Koni yellows with a good set of springs, some bushings, swaybars, all the toppings, etc., will take you pretty darn far. It's worthwhile to budget the bushings and camber adjustment into your buy...they make a big difference. There may be some coilovers in the future worth buying in that price range if you're patient.

- andrew

So that being said, I have a few questions and statements:

How much are we looking at for the Tarmac II?

What do you mean when you say 'based on kw clubsports'?

I would like to try to avoid doing separate springs/shocks in favor of ready to go coilovers.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pricing here so I'll PM you.

They are built by KW in Germany to our specs. The starting point is their KW clubsport line of coilovers, which are a step more aggressive then their KW Variant 3 coilovers. We worked with them to develop our own spring rates and modified valving, and we get a warranty.

- Andrew

If your planning on running your car in STX, then take a look at the Ground Control Complete system for your car. This system is complete (to include top mount camber/caster plates, stress bar, custom made and powdercoated front strut housings, rear shock mounts, Koni adjustable dampers Eibach springs, and Ground Control coilover hardware) and custom tailored to you, your driving style, and the environment you will be driving in. Our systems are not just some run of the mill suspension siting on a shelf waiting to ship. We have all components in stock and ready to build a system for you.

All of our products also carry a lifetime warranty.

I know you said you where looking for something around $1500- but if you want to be competitive in STX then you need to take advantage of what you are allowed to use.

Good point. Lots of solid advice here so far. So now it's just price vs benefits...

Standard KW V3 spring rates are going to be a bit soft for your needs IMO.

Definitely agree here.

Ok, thanks for the advice guys. What do you recommend instead?

My advice is to do one thing, and one thing only to start.

Get a good performance alignment on it.

THEN go track and autocross it.
Make a list of shortcomings you would like to address, THEN research who can help you fix those issues.
THEN spend some money.

Seconding TiC's comment. There's alot of good stuff about the suspension as-is.

If there's too much body roll, get stiffer springs.
If there's too much oversteer, get stiffer front sway bar.
If there's too much understeer, get stiffer rear sway bar.
If there's not enough grip, get wider tires.
If your tires wear unevenly, get camber plates/LCA's.
If the car is too unstable, get toe and caster links/plates.
If there's too much chassis flex, get strut and chassis braces.

Man... and here i was thinking i'd get a bunch of "Suspension X IS DA BOMB" answers.

Lots of good thoughts.

Well, part of my quest for suspension as a starting point is i HATE wheel gap. I know i will have 235/40/17's, i know they will be Dunlop ZII's. I probably track twice a summer, and autox 5 or so times.

So, i guess I'd just like to start somewhere with coilovers and work things out from there.

Check out this link if you haven't already;
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26890
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...06&postcount=7

-Adam

I guess one thing that turned me on to KW V3 was this thread - seems like the norm for these AutoX guys...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30303

Interesting link. When I called KW last week, they said the normal V3s have 230 front/285 rear springs, while the Clubsports have 340/400 springs.

KW V3 was one of the first "nice" set of coilovers for the ft86 platform, and I think that's why you see a lot of guys running it. The market is still catching up with the demand. There should be a lot more options near the end of 2013.

For a budget build, I'd probably go for Koni Yellow with Eibach ERS springs.

Thats a good write up, but keep this in mind;

KW gives you what ever they want of the shelf.
GC will tailor the system to you, what you want and what will make you competitive.

If you have any concerns or technical questions all you have to do is email/call us and you get to talk to a live person with an answer almost immediately.
Try that with KW.

Our complete system which about the same price as the KW V3 includes camberplates, stress bar (sharper steering), and rear shock mounts.

Don't get me wrong KW has decent products but they are a bigger that can flood the market with their product hence the reason why you see more activity about them.

I found another link in regards to a STX client of mine that I still stay in touch with.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...06&postcount=7

What's it like to assemble those DIY? do you need anything special do to it? I've only ever installed ready to go coilovers.

Thanks,

A little time consuming and a little messy, but not difficult at all.

My advice is to get an Eibach Pro kit for a couple hundred bucks, get an alignment, 8" or 9" rims and 245/40/17 tires (235 is too short), and go have fun for a while. That setup will win most local STX events if you have the driving talent.

That gives you more time to assess the coilover options as they mature, whilst still having a competitive setup.

Now, if you're planning on winning Nationals this year, go get some coilovers pronto.

Edit : you'll need the Strano front bar as well. It will help tame the rear end.

Nationals, in my first RWD car ever. Lol.

I'd suggest doing some more research on the Tarmac II's. I've heard nothing but great things about them across platforms. They are a tad above your $1500 budget but not by that much.

Hey, you have to start somewhere.

Back in 2006, I went to Nationals just for the experience. I fully expected to get my ass kicked, but ended up winning the STU Pro Solo National Championship.

You never know :D

Whoever you spoke to at KW was not properly informed. They are 340/400 for the off the shelf V3s.

For our RCE Tarmac 2's, we use 400/400 as the default rates, but allow customization firmer and softer depending on the user's needs.

Most good suspension shops will allow you to customize your coilovers and make recommendations on what will work for you. Some will have different ideas of what works.

I would stress again that using your budget completely on coilovers and then running stock bushings is not recommended. They really do make a solid difference. I would prefer a Koni + RCE Yellow spring set-up with some key bushings and maybe swaybars every time over 1500 in coilovers. Staging your build in phases is a common way to go and often a good idea depending on the user.

- Andrew

Thanks for clearing that up. Any chance you know what the OTS Clubsport rates are?

As long as I read the rules correctly, our stress bar is legal for STX for the FRS/BRZ chassis.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...lo%20Rules.pdf
"G. Strut bars per Section 12 are permitted with all types of suspension,
subject to the following constraints:
1. a 2-point strut bar may be added, removed, modified, or substituted,
but only with another 2-point strut bar.
2. A triangulated (3-point) strut bar may be removed, modified, or
substituted; substitution may be with either a triangulated or a
2-point strut bar. The connection to the chassis (i.e., firewall, bulkhead,
etc) must be in the standard location."

Please correct me if I misread/misunderstood the above information.

No, you are right. My mistake. What confused me is that there is no 2 point bar for the MX5. I'll edit my earlier post.

No big, I just wanted to make sure. :happy0180:

Actually, i think there is something to this. The version of the rules you link to are outdated. In the most recent version, that section has been edited to include this text:

"Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S - The pair of OE strut tower-to-firewall braces are not considered to be a strut bar per Section 12.18 and are not allowed to be removed, modified, or substituted per Section 14.2.G."

This is at the bottom of page 270.

Now, not sure if this has anything to do with adding an additional brace, but maybe it does if it constitutes "substitution"

But, just so we have all the information:

12.18 STRUT BAR
A transverse member connecting the upper or lower suspension mounting
points at the front or rear of the car. Strut bars may be mounted only
transversely across the car from upper left to upper right suspension
mounting point and from lower left to lower right suspension mounting
point. A two-point strut bar fastens only at the left and right suspension
pointing points. A triangulated strut bar has a third area of attachment
at the chassis (e.g., at the firewall/bulkhead). All connections to the vehicle
must be bolted. No connection point to the chassis can be welded.

and here's 14.2.G

G. Strut bars per Section 12 are permitted with all types of suspension,
subject to the following constraints:
1. a 2-point strut bar may be added, removed, modified, or substituted,
but only with another 2-point strut bar.
2. A triangulated (3-point) strut bar may be removed, modified, or
substituted; substitution may be with either a triangulated or a
2-point strut bar. The connection to the chassis (i.e., firewall, bulkhead,
etc) must be in the standard location.

So the firewall braces would have been considered a strut if there was a stock strut mounted to between the suspension?

14.2.G.2 says a tri stut can be removed, modified, or substituted, but our cars don't have a tri strut. So I assume that that is the reason for:

"Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S - The pair of OE strut tower-to-firewall braces are not considered to be a strut bar per Section 12.18 and are not allowed to be removed, modified, or substituted per Section 14.2.G."

I dont think GC strut bar modifies, removes or substitutes the tower to firewall braces. It connects camber plate to camber plate. and the camber plates do not touch the tower to firewall brace. So if im understanding the rules correctly you should be fine running any strut bar that doesn't change the factory brace (ie: cusco, gc) but cant use struts with the triangular design (ie: ft86speedfactory or pw jdm). Thats what i took from reading the rules.

Well, i know for sure that:
A: For my local region, this will be the first BRZ twin around
B: they aren't very thorough when doing tech

So it probably won't matter for me.

I have had another client run his FT in STX with our complete (inc. Stress bar) system in several AutoX bodies in TX without having any negative repercussions towards any of his suspension modifications.

-Adam

I truly doubt that anyone at a local event would care, but if you plan on running a national event, I would email Doug Gill at the SCCA to get a clarification.

To expand on this - let's say I had more budget - and wanted to go KWv3 or Tarmac II - what bushings would you also replace?

I've modeled my car build off of RCEs for the most part. Stock struts with RCE yellows, 20mm front / 16mm rear adjustable Whiteline bars with adj end links, Whiteline front STB, and Whiteline bushings nearly everywhere I could put them. Car feels very good now.

I'm also curious what bushings should be first on the list. I am working within a budget, and probably won't go overboard, but I'd like to do things properly. What are people's thoughts on 'must-have' bushings? Ideally I would like to keep the NVH within reason. My car is used for extended roadtrips, and I don't want to be responsible for any of my passengers loosing their fillings :burnrubber: