Do we really want a Turbo BRZ? I'm going to say no.
 

Before you think I've lost my mind, hear me out.

Up to today, I have wanted nothing more than a Turbo BRZ. A car that handles like it is on rails, and only weighs in at around 2700 lbs would be amazing at even 250 hp. And I love the idea of a lower power, light car that can beat up on bigger high power behemoths.

But after talking things over with a co-worker that is also interested in a BRZ, I'm not so sure. Here's why:

First, I think that the BRZ/FR-S is going to be a car that will be an absolute blast to drive, even if you aren't the fastest car on the track, and that is what has drawn me to it. But if it comes out, and is really demanding $24,000 to purchase, there are a lot of other cars out there in that price range that are going to make that a tough choice. Most notably, if I can get a new WRX for about $1,000 more... And if you start throwing some lower mileage used cars in there...

Now, I suspect that the fun factor of the BRZ will likely be higher than a WRX,and hopefully anything else, but what about a BRZ STI? Looking at the WRX, the STI version draws a $10,000 premium. If you add that to the base, and especially the Limited BRZ, you get a BRZ STI that would run between $34,000 and $37,500.

That is a lot of money for what is basically a fun/track car. One reason that I have a WRX (sorry, I have a WRX all ready) is because I live where it snows, and I love being able to modify my car, and still drive it every day. I could live with a car that will keep the garage warm in the winter at $24,000, but if we are looking at a BRZ STI around $35,000 and STI moneys, I think I'd have to just get a WRX STI.

Not to mention all the other cars, New or Used that would fall into that $34,000 - $37,500 price range.

There is the other factor that I all ready have track wheels and tires for the WRX, and all signs are that I can just bolt them up to the BRZ. I have a feeling that my up-graded front calipers will also bolt up after seeing the Brembos on the Greddy FR-S. So being able to transfer some parts over is fantastic. But Subaru usually changes things up on the STI versions, and if I can't transfer some parts over to a BRZ STI, that is a total deal breaker.

There has been some rumblings that there will be a BRZ STI, but that it will just have a higher output NA engine. This to me is the most interesting. If I could get a BRZ for about $30,000 that is NA, and makes another 20 - 30 hp, that would be ideal, and it would be far enough away from a WRX STI that I'd still go with the BRZ.

The other thing that I think would be great would be a factory supercharger kit. Toyota has a good history of doing this, though Subaru does not. I would love to see a kit for the BRZ/FR-S. And if there is such a thing, and it would still retain a factory warranty, then there would be less of a need to produce a turbo BRZ/ BRZ STI.

I'm really curious to see what will happen with this, and I just hope that Subaru and Toyota are smart about how they develop this platform. But the moral of the story is I might have to be an early adopter...

I also really hope that they release some actual motorsports parts for this car to show that they are serious about it being used for weekend racing...

I didn't even read your post but I agree :P

I agree with everything you said. But you might find this thread interesting to post in: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359

I am also waiting to hear what the potential BRZ STI will offer and if it will come. That would be an interesting option. :)

i can see that,

I am also hoping for the Supercharger option, as it would ad some divesity among the two sti's

Everyone keeps comparing the BRZ price to the currently EJ255 powered WRX...I have a feeling the FA20DIT is going to add some price to the next wave of WRXs. So the price gap will range I suspect a FA16DIT (my guess of a turbo BRZ engine) will probably once again, fall a little under the WRX's price.

Just my guess.

Also, the '$10k premium' that get's tacked onto the STi is because of the R180 rear diff, the 6-speed with a torsen front and DCCD center, the VF turbo, the additional AVCS (exluding the 06-07 overlap of both having single avcs), the Brembo brakes, the aluminum suspension bits, and the inverted struts. Oh and then add adjustable HIDs, bigger IC, alcantara 'special' interior....I don't think an STi BRZ would really have too many otherwise off the shelf parts compared to what will be other Subaru stock.

For instance, it'll probably have it's own turbo FA engine but use common components from other turbo models, driveline will probably remain the same, probably get 4 pot/2pot brakes, some suspension/interior/body tweaks, a few badges and I'm guessing that'll be about it.


OR

I could be completely wrong :lol:

Yes, you're completely wrong. It's STI & not STi anymore (not STi BRZ)

But other than that, it was enjoy to read your post

Yes everyone it is STI. We need to create a banner on this BRZ forum for that. :) or else ichi gets mad. :bellyroll:

STi STi STi

I agree also but I wish there was a FA25 as optional engine.

It doesn't bug me. Cuz there is STi. All the STi made before '06, I count then as STi. After '06 is STI. Simple as that

Good points. The FA series WRX isn't slated to hit until 2014, so maybe we will have to wait that long to see a BRZ STi, if there is one. My argument above is just a guess based on the current premium for an STi version of the WRX. I'd assume that if they weren't changing enough parts to warrant that premium, they wouldn't call it a BRZ STi. At least I'd hope that they would.

Maybe a better comparison would be the difference between a base Impreza and a WRX... There you would only be looking at a difference around $8,000. That is still a heck of a jump though...

I am also really curious to see what happens with the 2014 WRX STI. I'm hoping that it goes in a completely new direction and makes about as big a jump over the GF as the GF made over the GD chassis.

So if this is your first post does this mean you are Subaru and your're telling is their isn't going to be a turbo?? Lol i keed

But, what if their is a turbo? Will anyone be happy, or angry with Subaru, because they released it with turbo?

I think it's safe to assume that if they did make it a turbo, the base price would be higher and there would be no NA option at least at launch. In that case, yes I would be angry with them.

If there is a Turbo version, I think that a lot of people will be happy. But I don't know how well it would sell because of the big jump in price. FWIW, this has been the issue with the STI of late. It has become pretty expensive and is running into a lot of competition. There are also more and more people that don't see that value of the STI premium, and end up in a WRX.

As far as people being angry about there being a turbo version, this all depends on how Subaru handles the release.

ie. as long as they don't "2008 WRX" people.

I completely understand their not telling people what is in the pipeline yet, bit IMO, it is the wrong way to go. I assume that they think that if they tell people that they are coming out with a turbo version next year, they will hurt their initial sales because people will be waiting for the turbo.

I would say that the opposite is true. People that are set on a turbo BRZ will likely not buy the BRZ in the first place, and will look somewhere else. But if they go out and buy that other car, there is much less of a chance that they will come back and buy the BRZ STi/Turbo, etc.

And the few that do, and decide to modify it, make it it turbo, etc., will then be ticked off when the OE turbo version comes out...

If I were Subaru (and I'm not, just to be clear), I'd announce whether there was going to be a turbo, or turbo STi, or NA Sti, version right before the first cars hit. This way you don't tick anyone off, everyone gets the car that they want, and if sales are in fact slow of the base NA car, just speed up production of the hot version and release it early. They have done this before a lot.

And as I have said above, I'd say that there are a lot of pluses to the stock BRZ...

What jump in price? The Gen Coupe sells for $22k with turbo, RWD, heavy because it's loaded with other things. Why offer a car with less for more?

They should just offer a Turbo package at launch for those who desire it, and leave it NA stock.

Why would you think they would be ticked off when their Aftermarket turbo setup will most likely be faster than an OE one?

Possibly if you are comparing a modified BRZ to a stock BRZ turbo. But likely the modified BRZ turbo would be a lot faster, and have an engine with stronger internals, lower compression, etc. that would make it a much more capable engine.

Looking back, the Turbo Subaru Engines are a lot more stout than the NA Subaru Engines because they need to be, so they are a much better platform to start with.

Then there's the issue of warranty, and reliability, etc...

All I know is that if I put the money in to turbo an NA car, I would be a little upset if they then came out with a turbo car from the factory...

And especially if it had other goodies like a stronger transmission, better TBD/LSD...

If I have learned anything in my years playing with Subarus it is that you don't buy a WRX, and hope to turn it into an STI. Sure, you might be able to get your WRX to a point where it is as fast as an STI, but if you put that same money into an STI, it would be a lot faster. And even if it is as fast in a straight line, it is not the same. Not at all...

And there is a much lower ceiling with a WRX when you are talking about getting to the point where things start to break and need to be replaced like transmission and suspension.

Dragon, I know you are all about the hp. But for some of us we also value reliability, warranty and for Subaru to do the R&D. More important to me then a few more hp from the aftermarket.

So then is it likely for them to release two versions to make both partys happy?

Hey, I think we should have thread for the ones that only want a NA Toyobaru. In this case we'll know who are these members and discuss anything about the NA engine, without that the turbo fans come up and turn everything in a turbo debate. Why do all turbo lovers want to convert us?

I dont want to convert anyone, but I dont want anyone saying what 'we' want... Speak for yourselves. Id enjoy boost if subaru gets it right, it would be a welcomed increase in performance and tunability.

Turbo wanters.. read my post ^^^^

i'd prefer to stick with N/A but i wouldnt mind if it had a turbo/supercharger.

N/A>supercharger>turbo

I read the OP but couldn't understand why he doesn't want a turbo. For me I've got the reasons down to:

1. Cheaper
2. Simpler in terms of reliability with modding
3. The Scion(the one I'll be getting) won't ever get a turbo
4. No waiting

Then again . . .

1. Nearly every [grassroots] drift car has a turbo(or a V8)
2. It would be the S15 the US never had
3. You won't be left behind when youre at a HPDE with corvettes, porches etc.
4. You'd have a killer power to weight ratio without doing any real work

If I was to keep the FR-S and do a DIY turbo kit

1. I expect cooling to be an issue
2. big $$
3. Tuning problems?

Ej swap would be

1. Cheap
2. Proven and Reliable
3. Will need custom piping which isn't a big problem
4. Will push 350 WHP without much effort.

That's how I see it.

Oh man I love it more thinking in that ^

WTF! For those wanting a turbo just wait for the new WRX. Modded it'll be as fast as an Aventador (till 280 km/h), it also has AWD. The BRZ is just the first step before being able to control a Dirft Ford Mustang or a Grip Porsche 911.

WRX also has 2 more doors, lots more space, higher CoG, but the most important fact to me isn't that it IS AWD, but that it ISN'T RWD. Not to mention it weighs a lot more. You've made similar statements before, and while I'm not trying to be insulting here, it seems you just don't get the point that those in the pro-turbo crowd are trying to make.

The FRS/BRZ that I buy will never out accelerate my 71 Chevelle, and in all likelihood won't even out accelerate my S14 (which weighs about the same at this point, 2850 w/ me and 3/4 tank of gas). It probably won't slide better than my S14, or with a few minor suspension tweaks, out handle it. It is however newer, more reliable, and in general nicer all around than either of those cars. If a turbo model was made, would I take it over the N/A, probably. Of course cost is a factor there, but to be honest everybody is saying 200hp/151ftlb is enough. They're right, it is enough, for now. Eventually most enthusiasts end up wanting more out of the car. Whether it be relatively cost inefficient N/A route, FI route, car diet route (always a good idea IMO), or some combination thereof.


Does EVERYONE want more power, no, some people will leave theirs completely stock, there's nothing wrong with that. Some people will just do suspension work, tires, etc. Most of us I think will do a mix of several things I'd wager.


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if a factory Turbo version is available it will sell like hotcakes. It will probably be more powerful and faster in stock trim than a cam'd, ITB'd, full exhaust N/A car. It will probably have much more potential for higher power levels with less money. Of course every part of that is a trade off in either reliability or fuel efficiency, but once you start modding your NA car for more power, you're going to run into the same issues, at a higher cost, for lesser gains.

Does more power mean it's better, no, not one bit. It would be different, the dynamic of the car would change and tuning strategies would change around that new dynamic.


The real moral of the story is WRX =/= Turbo AS1, so stop acting like it does.

If I had to go FI on my BRZ, I'd go with a mild supercharger option. Not really looking to make monster high end numbers and I like the no-lag throttle response from the blower.

True lots of people don't want more power but, even Ken Gushi said the AS1 needed some more power for drift. Professional of coarse

I think that is all that most of us have been hinting at...but I think some think we're talking about making 500whp pump gas setup :rolleyes:

I think most of us just know that we'll be bored with a 200bhp car. I've had a rwd Subaru, though a little lighter and making about 60% more power than the BRZ is coming with. It was a great and very fun setup. It was extremely driveable, had responsive torque (and flat from 3-7k rpm), was easy to toss around and pedal through a turn...oh and it had a turbo:eyebulge:

guess that's a curse word around here ;)

I do however plan to put a little centrifugal on the FA20 however. I figure Subaru will be releasing a turbo model in the future anyway and the blower will be easier to package, require fewer parts and keep a very NA feel to the powerband.

have you considered that a lot of these potential frs buyers are your standard average american car shopper who don't really care for the performance aspect of the car? imagine your typical scion customer who walks into the dealer and i think this will become a lot more clear. these people will never reach even 50% of the car's limit.

i think it makes sense for toyota to keep the price low of this car by keeping it NA. by adding a stock turbo, it doesn't align with the car's philosophy of keeping it simple.

Based off of this logic, Subaru should have never made the WRX or STI, nor the Legacy GT. Mitsu should have never made the EVO, all MR2's should be non-turbo, etc etc etc

I have no interest in dealing with the complexity or reliability issues of a Turbo motor, so I agree.

You know some people are thinking bigger than that. :bonk:

I'm glad the car is NA, and I think it's going to be a really fun package for the street. I want to get one to drive.

That said, I'm expecting Subaru to pull a 2002 WRX / 2004 STi on me again, and I'm hoping for a turbo in the 3rd year (my14). I traded my '02 WRX as quick as I could. A small good looking turbo RWD coupe would be just perfect for me.. A turbo version of this car could fix all of my perceived Impreza failings (big, ugly, 4Dr, AWD).

What reliabillity issues do you speak of?

I totally agree. I'm at 85k on a boosted motor. Stock was 7.5 and I run 12. No issues so far.

Already done that. Started back in May. Join the discussion.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359

I disagree. The AS1 is meant to be cheap, fun to drive, simple, drivers oriented car that the average man can afford. Just like the AE86. The WRX/STI and Evo focus on providing performance that would cost 2-3x as much in a European car. But they rely on turbos and complicated AWD systems to correct for poor driving ability. Let me say that again, they have to correct for poor driving ability with their complicated onboard systems. I don't want a turbo that will be overly complicated (compared to NA) and increase the cost of the car. This car has its purpose. If you want turbo add it yourself or get the turbo WRX or Evo. This car has its own niche and it isn't the high horsepower dyno queen crowd.

Don't crucify people for wanting a modern day RX7/S15... a lightweight turbo FR is a niche car too. So why not kill 2 birds with one stone, by offering both versions?

You are correct though, aftermarket turbo/superchargers will fill in the blanks if the manufacturer doesn't.