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-   -   Good Article: Yes, Toyota and Subaru Can... Save Driving! (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2846)

CptCaveman 12-12-2011 12:24 PM

Good Article: Yes, Toyota and Subaru Can... Save Driving!
 
Good article by Jalopnik:

Quote:

Yes, Toyota and Subaru can… save driving

Lulled into stupor by your in-car DVD player and automatic butt massagers, you may not have noticed, but cars have gotten really, really boring in the last two decades. Sure, they're faster than ever — a 2011 Toyota Camry makes 21 more horsepower than a 1991 Porsche 911 — they're safer than ever and they're more luxurious than ever. But all the above have removed the whole purpose of cars: The driving itself. But change could now be on the horizon. Could a new product from the most beige of automakers forever restore the driver to his rightful place?

And I really do mean cars have gotten boring. Even equipped with a weekly rotation of the newest, most exciting cars on the planet and regular jaunts around the world to drive them on race tracks, I left as Jalopnik's road test editor last year, departing for the more involved climes of motorcycles. There simply wasn't a car on the market that was any longer capable of holding my interest; not when I could swap my driving shoes for a leather suit and actually be allowed to control a fast vehicle using only skill and physical inputs.

Don't believe me? Go bounce off the top speed governor of a CTS-V on the road. Rather than some feat of ridiculous human prowess, you just mash the pedal and point away from trees. Go drive an SLS AMG around Laguna Seca or, rather, sit along for the ride while the automatic transmission and undefeatable stability control do it for you. Hell, you can set lap records in a Porsche 911 GT3 RS all day long without really trying.

But that all changed a week ago when I walked into the reveal of the Scion FR-S here in Hollywood. The car in front of me wasn't about bullshit numbers that translate into very little experience. It wasn't about features and it wasn't about image. It's not designed to perfectly accentuate Mr. Bluetooth Earpiece's striped shirt or make Sally Homemaker feel rugged. Unlike literally every other car on the market in 2011, it's made to do one thing and one thing only. It's made to be driven.

There's been some bitching in Jalop circles that the Scion FR-S/Toyota GT 86 and its Subaru BRZ cousin don't make headline-grabbing power figures. To them, I say, who cares? I've driven the most powerful cars on the planet and been bored to tears doing so. The problem is, that with ridiculous power, comes ridiculous liability.

No automaker is free to allow mere mortals to exploit a 556 HP luxury car without intervention. And I'm not talking about just the electronic kind. Chassis on those cars are tuned for safety, not driver involvement. Stability at high speeds, not agility in tight corners. The hugely wide and extremely low-profile tires needed to put that power to the road grip like hell, but utterly refuse to slide in a controllable manner. Where's the fun when you only have two choices on the menu: grip or spin?

In fact, the whole concept that speed somehow correlates with what we want to do as drivers is completely erroneous. I'm not in this to read some number off a dashboard, I drive cars and ride bikes to develop new skills, then practice them. I drive to participate in a landscape and, occasionally, to scare myself.

The best driver's car I've ever owned was a BMW that weighed 2,813 Lbs and made 167 HP. The Scionotabaru weighs 2,689 Lbs and makes 197 HP. That's plenty for me. That I'll be able to drive it without playing into the ideas that our midwestern and southern readers probably have about me and my skinny jeans and that I'll be able to carry luggage and occasionally some buddies in the back seats just makes it that much better.

To put those numbers in perspective, a current BMW M3 weighs 3,704 Lbs. Over 1,000 more than the Subionta. Where's the fun in that?

That the GT 86/86/FR-S/BRZ was able to get down to such a svelte weight without the use of exotic materials is indicative of its appeal. It doesn't need a carbon fiber roof or magnesium wheels or drillium pedals in order to perform. Which means you'll be able to make it perform for just $24,000. That's less than a VW Golf TDI. You can afford this car. You can afford to crash this car and you can afford to repair it. That means you can afford to really, really drive it. Hard. You can afford to modify it. You'll probably be able to do the maintenance yourself, in your driveway.

When I walked into that FR-S unveil I saw a car that was small, a car that was practical, a car that was unassuming, a car that was RWD, has a manual transmission, a light weight and perfect weight distribution. I saw a car that I wanted, badly. For the first time in a long time.

I'm planning on buying a BRZ. How about you?

Snoopyalien24 12-12-2011 12:40 PM

Whoa damn. Feels like, well, he gets it.

Quote:

It wasn't about features and it wasn't about image. It's not designed to perfectly accentuate Mr. Bluetooth Earpiece's striped shirt or make Sally Homemaker feel rugged. Unlike literally every other car on the market in 2011, it's made to do one thing and one thing only. It's made to be driven.
Best quote ever

Kids Heart 12-12-2011 12:48 PM

Damn good read.

Rampage 12-12-2011 01:08 PM

I agree with everything except the part about being able to afford to crash and repair a 24K car. 24K is still a lot of money for a car for me. But then, I am a lot older than most of the fans of this car.

ryude 12-12-2011 01:10 PM

I think he meant fenders and such are designed to be cheap, hence the bland design on some of the exterior.

Matador 12-12-2011 01:31 PM

Reading fail. BRB

mines13 12-12-2011 01:34 PM

I agree with all of it, well written. This is coming from someone who usually hates Jalopnik articles.

Syldrin 12-12-2011 02:04 PM

he spelt FR-S wrong at the end there.

Syldrin 12-12-2011 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mines13 (Post 96572)
I agree with all of it, well written. This is coming from someone who usually hates Jalopnik articles.

agreed this guy trys to hard to be like clarkson and just comes across as an asshole.

ft86Fan 12-12-2011 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syldrin (Post 96591)
he spelt FR-S wrong at the end there.

Yes, he "spelt" it BRZ :D

Snoopyalien24 12-12-2011 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ft86Fan (Post 96682)
Yes, he "spelt" it BRZ :D

lulz

TheRipler 12-12-2011 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage (Post 96554)
I agree with everything except the part about being able to afford to crash and repair a 24K car. 24K is still a lot of money for a car for me. But then, I am a lot older than most of the fans of this car.

It's a matter of perspective, I suppose. I think the author is coming from the view that it's cheaper to crash and repair than any other new car you would take to the track. When you actually use a car like this to its full potential, it's just an understood cost that you will incur. Track rats will understand this.

Re_Invention 12-12-2011 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syldrin (Post 96593)
agreed this guy trys to hard to be like clarkson and just comes across as an asshole.

:word: On the money.

In the same paragraph of talking about how cars are boring he says this:
Quote:

Hell, you can set lap records in a Porsche 911 GT3 RS all day long without really trying.
:hitcomputer:

DuMa 12-12-2011 03:39 PM

i like the reference to teh BMW E30. but honestly there have been many driven purpose cars in the last 20 years. MR-S, S2K, MX-5, RX-8,

Lasse 12-12-2011 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuMa (Post 96715)
i like the reference to teh BMW E30. but honestly there have been many driven purpose cars in the last 20 years. MR-S, S2K, MX-5, RX-8,

But not in a few years, exept MX-5. Besides, you cant' say either s2000 or rx-8 was an affordable car. They where quite pricey for being second car in family/ or young man's first own car.

:burnrubber:

random 12-12-2011 04:21 PM

The article conveniently doesn't mention anything about a Miata. This makes me think the author simply has car envy: he can't afford the most of the fancy cars mentioned in the article.

himbo 12-12-2011 10:40 PM

I think he hits the nail on the head with this article. I feel that too many car companies have gotten too serious about the numbers- I would never buy a new Ferrari, because it doesn't involve the driver like they did before. Don't get me wrong- they're still exciting cars to look at, but the electronics do the driving for the driver. Same with BMW- which is now, the Ultimate Driven Machine. Even the 991 911 has become too focused on achieving numbers. I think Jaguar is doing right by trying to introduce driving feel back into their cars.

I know that the numbers sell, and there are plenty of buyers who will buy a car because it'll do 0-60 in 3.5s over a car that will do 0-60 in 3.7s. Its a numbers game, and the manufacturers are just meeting the demands of their consumers.

Still, its a shame- cars really are getting too boring. But I'm hoping that the Toyoburion will sell well, and other manufacturers will recognize a market and develop car worth driving again. I know that Nissan is watching this car closely- as they might re-introduce the 240sx/Silvia line...

Fingers crossed!

WolfpackS2k 12-13-2011 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasse (Post 96735)
But not in a few years, exept MX-5. Besides, you cant' say either s2000 or rx-8 was an affordable car. They where quite pricey for being second car in family/ or young man's first own car.

:burnrubber:


I don't know about the RX8 but you can find near new condition S2000s for low 20s all day long. In fact I bought mine for $22k when it was only 1 1/2 yrs old with 5000 miles on the odometer. They're out there;)

Ryephile 12-13-2011 05:01 PM

A rare and interesting slice of perspective from Jalopnik. Thanks for posting.

The omission of other recent "really good" drivers cars isn't relevant per se; the author isn't trying to make a list of worthy cars, but simply note that many manufacturers have become blinded by their competitiveness and lost sight of the actual driving interaction.

With any hope, other media outlets start "getting it" and pull the reigns in on the manufacturers to bring back more involving, interesting-to-drive cars.

86'd 12-13-2011 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 97534)
I don't know about the RX8 but you can find near new condition S2000s for low 20s all day long. In fact I bought mine for $22k when it was only 1 1/2 yrs old with 5000 miles on the odometer. They're out there;)

My friend just bought a nice '05 AP2 for 16k.

I wouldn't touch an RX-8, just from all the bad things I've heard about them.

As far as the OP goes, I'd like to see a trend towards lighter cars and smaller cars here in the states; cars like the Fit that you could actually carry stuff in, but also is fun to drive.

Of course this helps with things like gas mileage and parking and other intangible things.

It's funny watching the Civic morph into an Accord sized car over the years.

ahausheer 12-20-2011 12:07 AM

good read for me, certainly makes me want the car more.

MRZ415 12-20-2011 04:30 AM

Funny in the article he quoted it costing less than a Golf TDI...
I drive a Golf TDI lol ... so I guess I can afford this car too (( Subaru BRZ))
I just on the fence about Premium or Limited ...

SUB-FT86 12-20-2011 04:43 AM

I honestly think it's a personal opinion about cars really getting boring and not a fact. If you put me in a MX5 where I live in Georgia and that car would most likely bore the shit out of me. How come? I don't live where there is a whole lot of sharp turns and curves so most of my driving will be in a straight line where passing punch and hill climbing is done on a daily basis. The only way I would enjoy a MX5 type car is if I frequently go to Road Atlanta(which I've never been) with it. If the powerful cars are so boring then why are they outselling the momentum cars then? Because everybody doesn't share the same opinion.

tranzformer 12-20-2011 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 101378)
I honestly think it's a personal opinion about cars really getting boring and not a fact. If you put me in a MX5 where I live in Georgia and that car would most likely bore the shit out of me. How come? I don't live where there is a whole lot of sharp turns and curves so most of my driving will be in a straight line where passing punch and hill climbing is done on a daily basis. The only way I would enjoy a MX5 type car is if I frequently go to Road Atlanta(which I've never been) with it. If the powerful cars are so boring then why are they outselling the momentum cars then? Because everybody doesn't share the same opinion.


As others have said in the past this might not be the car for you. Maybe a V6 GC or a V8 Mustang might be a better option for you.

pastuch 12-20-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 101378)
I honestly think it's a personal opinion about cars really getting boring and not a fact. If you put me in a MX5 where I live in Georgia and that car would most likely bore the shit out of me. How come? I don't live where there is a whole lot of sharp turns and curves so most of my driving will be in a straight line where passing punch and hill climbing is done on a daily basis. The only way I would enjoy a MX5 type car is if I frequently go to Road Atlanta(which I've never been) with it. If the powerful cars are so boring then why are they outselling the momentum cars then? Because everybody doesn't share the same opinion.

You need to drive it like you stole it. I have a 4km drive to work and in the winter my Miata is sideways for 2kms of it. Yes, I drive like an Asshole but that's my choice. I love being sideways while driving the speed limit. The author of this article understands the madness that is me. I want to go around corners at the same speed as I accelerate from a light. I want to merge at three times the speed of an average driver.

This article was an excellent read and I agree with everything said. I've driven almost every sports car under $50000 and they all bore me to tears.

Note: I agree with earlier posters, the RX8, S2000, NA/NB Miata, RX7 and MR2 all had that fun-to-drive magic that is missing from the 350z/370z, g35/g37, mustang, genesis coupe, camaro, or any new BMW. (Other than BMW 1M)

tripjammer 12-20-2011 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 97534)
I don't know about the RX8 but you can find near new condition S2000s for low 20s all day long. In fact I bought mine for $22k when it was only 1 1/2 yrs old with 5000 miles on the odometer. They're out there;)


Dawg I would take a 5k mile $22k S2000 in a heart beat! And its a 2007 model? Daaaam!

I still say that is the best car Honda ever made beside the NSX...

tripjammer 12-20-2011 11:22 AM

A new lighter more powerful Mazda MX5 is coming early in 2013...that will change the convertible market...well maybe not, because the MX5 has no competition.

tranzformer 12-20-2011 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripjammer (Post 101525)
Dawg I would take a 5k mile $22k S2000 in a heart beat! And its a 2007 model? Daaaam!

I still say that is the best car Honda ever made beside the NSX...

ITR was putty good. Loved my buddy's until it got jacked.

Kids Heart 12-20-2011 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 101378)
I honestly think it's a personal opinion about cars really getting boring and not a fact. If you put me in a MX5 where I live in Georgia and that car would most likely bore the shit out of me. How come? I don't live where there is a whole lot of sharp turns and curves so most of my driving will be in a straight line where passing punch and hill climbing is done on a daily basis. The only way I would enjoy a MX5 type car is if I frequently go to Road Atlanta(which I've never been) with it. If the powerful cars are so boring then why are they outselling the momentum cars then? Because everybody doesn't share the same opinion.

The thrill of my day is I20E to I85N ramp. I know drivers that drift on/off ramps in metro Atlanta. If you get that bored Atlanta driving head up to US129 Blood Mountain or a little further to Deals Gap NC/Tenn.

But keep it off of the streets ;) Atlanta Motorsports Park is about to open.

tripjammer 12-20-2011 11:39 AM

What gets me is why did Subaru put navigation into the BRZ as standard equipment? I guess they are really trying to price the car higher than the FR-S.

tripjammer 12-20-2011 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranzformer (Post 101529)
ITR was putty good. Loved my buddy's until it got jacked.

OMG yeah...I forgot I use to own a integra back in the day..not a ITR...but yeah the ITR is bad assed! Come on Acura bring that car back!


Honda needs to do this...bring back..

NSX (they doing it)
S2000 (they need to do it)
Integra (they really need to do it and name it integra not RSX!!!)
CRX (yeah a real CRX not a hybrid one...)
Prelude (OMG bring the damn Prelude back!)

tranzformer 12-20-2011 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripjammer (Post 101543)
What gets me is why did Subaru put navigation into the BRZ as standard equipment? I guess they are really trying to price the car higher than the FR-S.

If the BRZ is going to be $1000-1500 more than the BRZ, they need to throw in some extras to make the price worthwhile besides the badge, blue color and headlights.

e30kawi 12-20-2011 12:46 PM

Was a good read and agree with the e30 and honda civic comments. My old 325i was a hoot to drive, and my civic is tiny compared to my wifes 08 model. Stoked about any iteration of the 86 I can get my hands on.

WingsofWar 12-20-2011 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 101378)
I honestly think it's a personal opinion about cars really getting boring and not a fact. If you put me in a MX5 where I live in Georgia and that car would most likely bore the shit out of me. How come? I don't live where there is a whole lot of sharp turns and curves so most of my driving will be in a straight line where passing punch and hill climbing is done on a daily basis. The only way I would enjoy a MX5 type car is if I frequently go to Road Atlanta(which I've never been) with it. If the powerful cars are so boring then why are they outselling the momentum cars then? Because everybody doesn't share the same opinion.

While I don't agree with you..and i think that today's built cars are boring or at least becoming boring with all the driver aids increasing every year, Regardless if it has 200hp or 600hp.

but You got a point though! The thing that makes the FRS/BRZ shine is the road itself. and If that road is a big straight line, like the ones you would find in a big portion of america, Its completely out of its element. It becomes a useless car. Because it stips the driver element from the experience of driving this particular car.

So when you say MX5 or BRZ is boring, I don't think you really meant boring. i think you meant the cars are utterly useless, in which i heartily agree. The Bugatti Veyron is a useless car at a mountain pass, a speed boat is useless in a small lake. ect... In a road like Road Atlanta or the Autobanh in Europe, when you consider this car as a performance car it becomes..."boring".

SunnyD 12-20-2011 01:08 PM

It's refreshing to see an article like this, as it accurately reflects how I feel. Where the author draws a comparison to the CTS-V, I can relate to what it's like having a high hp sedan coming from an BMW E60 M5. While it was blazingly fast on the fwy, I just didn't get much enjoyment out of it. Where do you comfortably use 500 hp on a day to day basis (without getting arrested)? Having a lot of hp doesn't equate to the car being fun to drive.

Ever since I sold my e36 m3 for the m5, I've been dying to get into a smaller, lighter car that I can track again. I've gladly sold my M5 and am awaiting the release of the FR-S!

tripjammer 12-20-2011 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranzformer (Post 101551)
If the BRZ is going to be $1000-1500 more than the BRZ, they need to throw in some extras to make the price worthwhile besides the badge, blue color and headlights.


I agree. I am thinking they are not going to price the BRZ limited real crazy high...

what we got in the limited vs premium is:

leather\Alcantara heated seats
Dualzone AC with Push Start


How are these two items worth the $3000 rumored price difference between the BRZ Premium and the Limited?

The Subaru WRX limited gives you full leather seats and HIDS for $1000 in price difference over the WRX Premium.

I think the BRZ Limited is going to be a lot cheaper than people think.

Subaru is like Scion you get a lot of value for your money...

ryun84 12-20-2011 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pastuch (Post 101482)
You need to drive it like you stole it. I have a 4km drive to work and in the winter my Miata is sideways for 2kms of it. Yes, I drive like an Asshole but that's my choice. I love being sideways while driving the speed limit. The author of this article understands the madness that is me. I want to go around corners at the same speed as I accelerate from a light. I want to merge at three times the speed of an average driver.

No, I don't think this article's author would understand you. He (and surely many others) would say that you need to take that sh*t to the track before you kill someone. And you can own up to being an asshole on the road and then justify it by saying it's your choice, but then when you go "sideways" into a car with a law-abiding family in it and kill everyone inside, your "choice" would just be wrong.

brillo 12-20-2011 07:52 PM

Most of the others cars mentioned (RX8, Miata, S2000) come with some form of major compromise. The FR-S/BRZ are affordable, quick, light weight, fuel efficient and roomy enough to be a daily driver. The RX8 (I paid 25,000 for my base model) is the closest to matching the FR-S for those qualities, but it is not nearly as efficient in terms of economy.

tripjammer 12-20-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brillo (Post 101784)
Most of the others cars mentioned (RX8, Miata, S2000) come with some form of major compromise. The FR-S/BRZ are affordable, quick, light weight, fuel efficient and roomy enough to be a daily driver. The RX8 (I paid 25,000 for my base model) is the closest to matching the FR-S for those qualities, but it is not nearly as efficient in terms of economy.


Mazda will fix this in the upcomming RX9...their skyactive stuff gets good MPG...they just need to merge it with the rotary engine.

And make the RX9 a real coupe not a weird 3 door coupe.

Sully 12-21-2011 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripjammer (Post 101545)
OMG yeah...I forgot I use to own a integra back in the day..not a ITR...but yeah the ITR is bad assed! Come on Acura bring that car back!


Honda needs to do this...bring back..

NSX (they doing it)
S2000 (they need to do it)
Integra (they really need to do it and name it integra not RSX!!!)
CRX (yeah a real CRX not a hybrid one...)
Prelude (OMG bring the damn Prelude back!)

I'm getting an FR-S instead of another Prelude, personally.

Though my heart still yearns for an H swapped 3rd gen 4ws.:wub:


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