FR-S vs Cayman
 

Is the FR-S going to be close enough from a driving pleasure angle that the extra cost of a Cayman isn't worth it?

For me I can't find two other "normal" hard top cars less than 75k that are as focused on driving pleasure.

I plan on cross shopping these two come spring/summer.

Srsly? :search:

The FR-S was supposedly bench marked with the cayman while the prototype was tested, but I wouldn't really compare the two in any other regards than handling. They're two complete different classes of cars.

Well, even if they are in two classes of cars, they are attracting more than one cross-shopper. My current shopping list to check out next year:

Porsche Cayman S,
Subaru BRZ,
Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca.


Intended competitors or not...if subaru makes an "STi" BRZ, it's very possible that's what I'll choose. We'll see. Just wanted to chime in to point out I'm on the list of folks cross-shopping such cars...I think there may be more of us out there.

just because it states STi doesn't mean it will have a turbo attached to it

Yes, I'm seriously going to cross shop these two. I want a driver focused car, a fun to drive car. I cannot think of another car in the same arena except for an RX-8. Most cars have more than enough power for "fun" and more than enough power for safe and easy highway driving.

They don't compare price wise, power wise, or in amenities (although a base Cayman isn't very "luxurious") but they are close in thought. An Elise is close to a track day only car, a 370z more of a "grand tourer". I find the Cayman and 86 to be cars focused on driving pleasure. So is a Miata, but its a convertible with the attendent issues.

What MX5 issues
 

I don't get this constant picking about MX5 Mazdas,My boyfriend and i just
love our little car as we drive around the eastern suburbs of Sydney (Australia) .

I was looking into the Cayman S before I got my IS. I would have gotten one had I not needed a sedan more than a 2 seater. If you have the money, definitely buy the Cayman even if it is just the base model. Either one will destroy the BRZ/FR-S. Idk if you've read the reviews, but the handling characteristics of the Cayman rivals its big brother the 911. Porsche could have easily made it better than the 911 but then nobody would buy a 911 :p It's severely limited to what it can do which is good news to you because then you can build it up to your liking (if you're into that of course)

here's my friends S model with the Techart kit..god I love this thing, handles like a dream, my IS350 has more umpth though ;)

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3646455_n.jpg

dont bring attention to miatas. its probably the last cheap car that idiots dont really get ahold of them and the prices dont randomly inflate like corollas or civics

I like the Miata. I don't want to have to worry about many autocross and DE sessions requiring a roll bar, I know that sounds dumb, but its one of my main hangups on convertibles. It has kept me from buying a used Boxster, Miata, or MR2.

@jonnyozerozero3
What gets you looking at the Boss vs the Cayman and BRZ?

Subaru used a cayman for a Brz which then tickled down to the
86 which was running with a supra then it got to the Frs whoes according to reviews has diff suspension tuning. Give Subaru the credit for choosing to try and make a great car on par with cayman.

Oddly enough a normal 911doesn't appeal much to me. A GT3? Yes please. Can't afford it and wouldn't want to drive it long distance (600+ miles).

I test drove a Cayman and was pretty happy with it. Shifting feel not as satisfying as I had hoped. Cable linked shifters kind of suck. I suspect that when I get to test drive a FR-S/BRZ I will be about as satisifed as the Cayman.

Luckily boy racers are insecure in their masculinity and the Miata is appealing enough to the female buyer that it scares away the ricer.

P.S. I loved mine, bought my current car for practicality, and am interested in the BRZ because I hope it captures some of the pure fun the Miata was.

I don't think it's necessarily about being insecure. Some people despise the looks of the MX5 like me. If a MX5 had look more like a nicer Saturn Sky I would want one.

Talking about Caymans...

Here an amazing project:
http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/boxs...-new-post.html

If I didn't need 4 seats and was going to get serious about racing, I'd keep my MX5 and get a roll bar: http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?dept=92.

Interesting. Though I'm not surprised to see the Cayman and FT86 being cross-shopped (even though one's a two seater and one's a four seater), the Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca is a race-prepped track car. It's very fast and impressive (according to reviews, grip is ridiculous and handling is quite neutral), but I wouldn't want one for a daily driver. If I was looking to drop $50k on a dedicated track toy, I'd probably get an Atom.

How much is the Boss in the US? On Evo it got a real spanking from all the german rivals (C63, M3, RS5) on both the track and the road, but I guess in the UK it's almost as expensive, when in the US it's much cheaper.

From the European point of view any american muscle car bar the Corvette is rubbish: too few MPG, too high taxes (right now in Italy we pay like 3000 euros a year for a car over 400 hp...), poor handling on broken surfaces, too big for the town roads... so a car like the 86 makes much more sense than over there!
They just introduced a new tax: for new cars, every kw over 175 is 20€ plus the existend "standard" tax....crazy, I know.

200-280 hp is becoming the limit, over that you are either rich or very poor in financial planning...

Yes, Italy taxes are just too high so as insurances also.

@Colganc: +1

I am really not interested in tracking convertible however light they might be. The talking about the GT86, the only car in the price range I can think of is the RX-8, but it is no more available. The other cars, 370 Z, TT-RS are just not the same. Only the Cayman is next to it, but you have top ay the price. 1 Series still goes on compromise. If money is not an issue, I do see crosshopping between GT86 and Cayman. One thing that is not possible with the Cayman however is drifting.

Both 1 M and Cayman (any model) are superior to the NA 86. Maybe when the turbo will come out we can talk about it.

The 86 is the alternative to hot hatches (Mini, Clio, Golf GTI, S3) and pure sport cars (Lotus).

I remember some of the prototype photos were on the 405 near the Toyota head quarters. I know the suspension will be different in both cars, but I don't really know which company deserves more credit than the other. I feel like it's more of a preference.

Yup, that's why I put "STi" in quotes. I'd prefer NA, next supercharged, then some type of turbo to get higher power. Basically all I meant is if they make a high performance version, I'm seriously interested.

One day on a road course track in my G37S ;). Sorry I didn't respond earlier, didn't have notifcations turned on yet. I also drove a '10 Corvette Grand Sport on a track for a whole afternoon, and had the opportunity to rip a Ferrari 458 Italia and a Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggara LP-570-4 down back country roads for 20 minutes. After doing all that, I can't help but want a more driver-focused car. :)

Sounds like you guys are curious, so I'll throw down what my weird brain is thinking for my next car:

Required: 2 door coupe, RWD, manual tranny, 26+ highway mpg, sexy non-ricer look. Need a summer-only daily driver that I can track a few times a year.
Also Preferred: 4 seats, 28+ highway mpg, 0-60 in 5 seconds or less (don't want to be within a bumper of the soccer moms on the track), low polar moment of inertia w/good front-to-rear weight balance, non-muscle car look, low track day costs, relatively low repair/maintenance costs.

The Cayman S seems great, except its only got two seats and is fairly costly all around. The Boss 302 LS has garnered such great reviews I can't help but be interested...that said, I'm not a huge fan of how it looks. Not sure I would realistically buy it. I've thought about BMWs as well, but that just get's me a car very similar to my G37. I don't like the look of the 370Z much and feel it isn't different enough to warrant trading. Things like the Genesis, etc, are too underpowered for my tastes.

There are prob some other factors I'm not thinking of, but the list gets pretty short once I start adding the "preferred" options. I love my G37S, but she's a bit portly (3700lbs) in the turns and isn't as fuel efficient as I'd like. I would sacrifice a bit of that luxury for something that is better being thrown around corners on the track. I think a ~300hp-flavored BRZ looks like it would fit almost all of my criteria.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I *really* hope Subaru builds it. I'd bet they can do it within a mere mortal's price range, and it'd be killer. I can't but think this platform is too much like the Cayman's....I hope Subaru isn't like Porsche and gives it the power it needs and watch it be incredible.

But that's my selfish thought :)

there are a lot of news about Subaru coming out with a tubocharged brz. in that case, i would get it in a heart beat

A Scion with an STI engine swap will still be cheaper than a Cayman.

I'll bite even though people are going to howl, but a used 997.1 911 is on my list, as is the Boss 302, and the GT86. If I can get 90% of the fun out of a GT86, and afford to take more risks with it, that's a huge plus. Also waiting for the new 12 GC with the new v6. Backseat for little kids is required or I'd snatch a Cayman yesterday.

It's not always a $$ range, it's how much extra do you get for spending the extra $$ and as you go up the chain it gets less and less.

I test drove a Cayman S and I didn't like the drivability on city streets. On the track maybe it is a different story. I wouldn't know.

Cayman S has drivability issue on city streets??:iono::paddle:

Interesting...that's not a common opinion (one I've read often, I mean). Care to elaborate?

probably got buns of steel lol

I always say there will be people who don't like every car even though these cars might be highly praised.

They can be compared if you're talking used prices, but FWIW I'd stay away from any cayman older than an 09. Porsche still has yet to acknowledge the widespread problem of IMS failures grenading their lower-end motors with a recall, and from what I've read it wasn't until 09 that they fixed the issue at the production level.

Well, from a certain perspective you are right - if it comes to lap times on a smooth, wide race track both cars are very fast.

However, the Cayman is not that brilliant, if you use it on winding little country roads, where there may always be some good reason to suddenly reduce speed quickly. Then the Cayman will show, that mid-engined cars can be real bastards. Enter a corner somewhat too fast, lift the throttle - and off you go!
Did you know, that you can't switch of the ESC completely in a Cayman? As soon as one of the front wheels reaches the ABS range, the ESC is back. I am sure, Porsche knows, why.....
And I do not trust the engine, Porsche had too many engine issues in the past....

The BMW 1 M is even worse: The suspension is much to hard, so the car simply lacks mechanical traction. This bad traction combines with sudden release of high torque at low revs from the turbo.
Not a problem on a very smooth dry race track. But push the car on a bumpy road or on wet tarmac, and you will need all your driving skills to keep the little bitch on the road.
In addition the Visco-Lok LSD (rev sensing instead of torque-sensing) isn't really a good choice. I would immediately exchange it to a clutch pack LSD.

I personally seriously considered all three of them, the GT86/BRZ, the Cayman S and the 1 M. And I am pretty sure, the GT86/BRZ is the best out of these three as a sports car for real roads, especially for little bumpy country roads.

I always knew the cayman couldn't be as perfect as magazines always say and it's good to hear it from a guy who was born(I'm guessing?) in the same country of origin so you see these cars all the time I bet.

youre listening to someone who is speaking beyond his experiences so take that with a grain of salt or two.

:word: The Cayman is one of, if not THE best current production driver's cars on the planet. Hands down.

Lift throttle oversteer? In a car with a good portion of its weight out back? You don't say!

Driving a mid/rear-engine car fast has a learning curve...but once you understand the physics behind it, they are magical (especially in the wet).

The semi-non-defeatable driver aids are funny too...Porsche calls it PSM, and they only come back on after you've demonstrated to the ECU that you are unfit to be driving without them.

Well, rear-engine cars and mid-engine cars are not the same in throttle-lift. I wouldn't mind to buy a rear-engine car (I used to drive rear-engine cars for about 15 years, although today I prefer front engine /RWD).
But mid-engine? Not really my thing. Nice as long as you stick to the rule not to lift the throttle throughout the curve. But what, if you simply can't??
(yes, there are many mid-engine cars, that are more difficult to handle under throttle lift than a Cayman, I know.)


But the text about the Porsche systems tells me something different:
It is enough to just get one wheel into the ABS range. Can happen, if you brake hard, right? Can even happen, if you do NOT brake hard: On bumpy roads. And especially on snow. That's sure nothing, that calls for ESC (PSM)!

And ABD (automatic brake differential), that stays active all the time?
No thanks! I prefer a pure mechanical LSD. Without ABD/brakes playing the nanny.

Meant to point this out earlier, but how does him being from Germany make him an expert on Porsches, BMWs, or any other German built car? That'd be like him assuming a US resident knows more about Chevy's or a Japanese person about Toyotas. I am way more familiar with European and Japanese cars than US built machines, despite being an American.

If you can't handle that you should leave the PSM on.

Why would you disable the PSM in snowy conditions--not many people are going to try and hoon thei street driven P-car in the snow.

I'd be interested to see how many people actually complain about PSM infringing on their ability to flog their Cayman...my guess it's not many....and my assumption (yeah, I said it), is that anyone that "complains" probably just got their ass saved by the nanny.

Probably this is exactly the point. I complain, that the PSM of a Cayman can not be fully switched off - but wouldn't bet, that a Cayman needs no nanny in the snow or under some difficult driving conditions.

I can say: The "nanny" never saved my ass, just because my BMW simply does not have ESC.
It has a traction control, but I switch it off as soon as I start to push the car - no matter if on dry or wet tarmac or on snow.
It has a clutch pack LSD, which helps further to control the car.
Actually I enjoyed so much drifting in the last week with so much snow here!

So this is exactly the point: Yes, you can switch ESC off, IF the car is easy to drive under difficult conditions, e.g. throttle lift (and if you switch off just the nanny, but not your brain!!).

You know, this is exactly, why I am so keen on the GT86/BRZ, because it is the very same kind of car:
- easy to drive, therefore no nanny needed.
- just a lot of fun

After seeing what used Caymans go for and driving a 911 and Boxster, I might seriously have to consider one. I'm very familiar with driving a mid-engine platform after owning 6 MR2's, so I should take to it like a fish in water. The power/weight ratio is better than the BRZ/FR-S, and it should have better brakes, too. I've always wanted a decent P-car, so this is tempting me, especially because we have an '07 Cayman for ~$31k at my Porsche/Audi dealer, and I'll get a break on parts/labor so the cost of ownership should be less.

My biggest concern is now this engine issue which has been brought up. I'll have to discuss it with our Porsche techs and get a couple solid opinions. The other downsides would of course be cost of modifications relative to the BRZ/FR-S, and the lack of options (I want a BRZ Limited with all the toys).

Look for some feedback on here when I go out and test-drive the Cayman sometime next week!

My local Porsche dealer has similarly priced Caymans. After the CPO warranty runs out I've expected I'd spend ~$1.5k to ~2k on maintenance/repair for a 07 Cayman. These extra costs are one aspect that has kept me from jumping into a Cayman and instead waiting to see on the 86.

If the 86 is as fun to drive it will be hard to say no to the cheaper price, assuming the 86 turns out to be ~23k.

Becareful when you test drive the Cayman. The engine noise can be intoxicating.