P&L Header prototype
 

The guys have been working on a new header and over the next few days I will be tesing it, as well as giving some feedback. Due to it still being unfinished, I am limited in what I can reveal, however, It is making power in all the right spots.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pandlmotors...dyno-graph.jpg

We had a few rough runs on the dyno today. We reset my ecu before every run, and took the best run from each group and all pulls were done in 4t.

The baseline has a P&L header back, The header is the second, and finally the third is with Visconti's latest tune.

I'm sorry for the poor photo, it was a quick shot, that I cropped to get my personal information out of the screen. The chart starts at 3k rpm, the the first line is 3500, and each line after that is +500. the X/Y is Power over speed. Each line is worth 30 along the vertical axis.

The midrange increase over the baseline is simply amazing. I took it on the street and ripped through first gear like nothing. It scared the girlfriend a little when the tires spun near the top of first (Note, i still have stock rubber and it was in the 30's here). I would imagine with e85 and a proper tune and intake this thing will be pushing into the 200 range.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81CuuuzLCcE&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Header prototype pulls. - YouTube[/ame]

The video is a little shaky, but I had to shift, and hold on to the wheel. It was a bit slick out tonight.

So, for a little more information about the header, What I can say is that it's currently a 4:1, EL, and Uncatted. The finished product will also be ceramic coated, and Paul also mentioned there will be a catted version.

E85 Fa20club tune.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pandlmotors...o-graph-II.jpg
http:// https://s3.amazonaws.com/pan...o-graph-II.jpg

P&L Prototype Catless header review:

I'm very thankful that I've had the opportunity to have the Header on my car for over a full week, and 500 miles. How often do you get to try a performance part before you purchase it?

My review is geared more toward the every day driver, non tuner savvy crowd (since that is what I am), and please take my opinion with a grain of salt. This currently is a near finished prototype, not a polished product. Most of the "issues" I have had are things that the tuner crowd wont bat an eyelash at, but those new to it might not be so forgiving.

The Good:

The power is there. You don't need a dyno to feel the dramatic changes to the powerband. After letting a close friend drive my car (he races spec MX-5's) he was giggling and grinning much like Jeremy in the top gear episode. He had driven my car bare bones stock, and after driving it with a canned base tune he felt the power gain was perfect.

The design will allow for an upgrade path to FI if you choose to go that route. There will also be a price drop for owners of the header if you get the P&L kit.

No additional modifications necessary. This is a true bolt on part. Nothing else needs to be moved, or redirected within the engine bay.

No Cel. After removing the primary Cat, I expected a Cel to trigger, but I've run it tuned, and untuned for about 250 miles each, and I've yet to have a cel.

The Bad:

The smell. Even though I do have a high flow secondary cat, the removal of the primary does make the exhaust smell a little more.

The Ugly:

The sound. It's not the most pleasing for DD. I commute 35 miles each way to work, and like to be on the phone at times. This has killed that. At idle and lower rpm it's fine, but Startups, and WOT, it's not good for my needs. To quote Jason from nameless Nameless with their header "Initial driving impressions of this header and gigantic 3" full exhaust: Not a huge fan. If I was a track driver, I'd be all over this thing - it picks up at about 5k and feels like you got hit with a freight train. Unfortunately, it sounds like the freight train is at full throttle behind you also." Also, switching from UEL to EL really changes the exhaust note.

In all, this will no doubt be a performance part when it goes into production. The catted version should fix the smell, as well as (to a lesser extent) the sound, and I can't wait to see how it all works out. I've given my review, and thoughts to Paul, and now we will see how it all turns out.

Also, I'm excited for friday. We will be tweaking a new tune and hopefully will really get this header to show off what it can do. Expect dynos!

You've got my attention.

Cheers!
-Yo

sleep is being lost already !

Is it my old eyes or is the "valley" GONE with the green line on the graph?

(dancing around like Charlie Brown already)

Myles

mother of god...

Video added to first post.

change the final drive and that thing will be incredible.

Its a good thing the dip has been almost completely eliminated, but the thing that concerns me is the powerloss in the midrange. Hopefully the final product addresses that issue. Looking forward to more good things from P&L

Adjusted cam timings? That's quite a reduction in the torque dip.

There's definitely something with the tune going on.

The dip isn't gone, it's just moved to between 4500 and 6500 hahaha

Good Jerb!

From the plot it appears that it's still making stock-like torque in the high end.

I know, I was saying that it peaks at 4500, then dips down and gradually comes back up...

The internet needs a sarcasm font :)

very interested, looks like some good numbers. Looking forward to more info.

Also very interested, can't wait to hear price.

Would a catted version be possible?
(thats coming from a suspension guy who is CLUELESS about power)

Myles

Before anyone shits their pants, this is useless without seeing the X and Y axis to see what is really going on.

Sounds like it.

I'm pretty sure the X axis is either speed or RPM and the Y axis is power/tq.

Yeah, like every other dyno in the world. But we need to see what lines are what RPM levels.

Well, most NA 86 dynos follow the same curve, give or take a couple hundred RPM. It's a pretty good indicator.

Looks good to me. My tune loves P&L products

Visconti likes his own tune, that's shocking!

So, what's the secret bro? How's the header blowing every other one away? That down-low torque is insane.

Crazy response on the RPMs. May consider.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/30631617.jpg

How long until we get some not completely vague info to go along with what could be one of the most epic (and terrible at the same time) NA dyno charts in FT86 history.

I'm a bit skeptical given what we think we're seeing and what we're used to seeing in the valley. :iono:

+1 .... fill us in man!

When I was at p&l in early January Paul described how he was going to design the header and it sounded very promising. Looks like that design description is living up to my dreams!!!

Btw... he stores his in the winter so that is why u haven't heard much about his brz. Just wait a coupla months...

I think I've got a bit better idea of what I'm looking at.

The chart is starting at ~3k rpm, and we are seeing half of the 'shift' of the valley that headers tend to produce. The header is probably under performing stock under the dyno cut-off, so we're not seeing the full normal shape.

Not that it isn't a perfectly acceptable compromise to trade boring low rpm torque for much more useful mid-range.

There is no "stock" in that dyno. The very lowest already has a complete header back exhaust. Considering that I think the middle an top lines are pretty good. No loss anywhere and big gains in midrange and high end. Don't read much into the power at start of runs. That has a lot to do with throttle modulation just before WOT.

Sorry, over baseline (headerback).

However, I'm pretty sure this chart starts at 3000ish rpm, and there will a corresponding loss in the lower rpm (less important) area.

The dyno pic is vague for a reason...

I agree that it must start at 3k-ish. Runs start at around 3250 or so. Not sure that is intentionally hiding a power dip versus coincidence, but we will know soon enough.

First off, Sorry for no response today, I've been at work all day and have no computer access, so I will try to clear up everything I can here. I know we all remember a certain other questionable dyno from the past, and it's nothing like that here.

To make sure everything is transparent, I have no financial interest in P&L. The first I had heard of them was back when they were first making their exhaust, and since I lived near there I dropped in. After Paul and I spoke for a while and I experienced their exhaust in person, we came to an agreement. They wanted a manual to use, and I wanted parts. I get nothing for free.

I give my input where I can, but since they are more experienced than I am, It's mostly I like this,or I don't. Simple stuff really.

Now, On to the questions...

(I'm paraphrasing) from Paul: His feeling with the way the car "breathes" it will be fairly difficult to get more out of the 5000-6000 range without boost.

That photo over engine speed. I'm sorry, I took a bad, rushed photo that I cropped because my full name/personal info was listed in the dyno run file names, and didn't want that blasted on the internet. It wasn't their idea it was mine. They initially didn't want photos out because of speculation, but after taking that one, they agreed to let me use it.

With the lines it's partial tune, and partial header. The combo just really worked well. Also, the chart started at about 3k rpm. The pulls were done in 4th, and that's where it was when the guy doing the runs made the shift.

Again, I also remember some bad dyno charts from the past. This is my car, and I was there for every step. I can't 100% say they didn't change anything, but I would stake my reputation that the numbers are good. As I said above, we did 3 pulls in 4th and took the best of the 3 on each run. The first was stock flash, with P&L header back, the second 3 runs were with the header added, and the final was with the @Visconti tune. The ECU was cleared before each run, and you could see the computer learn after each pull increasing HP and TQ.

This was just a testing run, so yes, the data is incomplete. I'm going to be driving with the header until monday, and then run a few more dynos. They will then take it off my car and I will test the Catted version later

^This. Next time I will see if they can start the run at a lower RPM for everyone on the official pulls.

There's nothing being hidden. I actually have no clue how it performs below 3k on a dyno, because that's where they just recorded it. You can see from the chart the engine speed cut out durring the dyno. It's not the cleanest, but this was a personal photo I had put up, and not part of their official release. It's still in the testing phase.

More about the "plan" from talking to Paul. The header will fit into their turbo kit. If you buy it, they will offer you a reduced price on the turbo upgrade. What the price is, I don't know. I didn't ask.

Someone had asked, and I had mentioned it, there will be Catted and Uncatted versions.

Why are they having more results than other Headers? The design is a little different than what I have seen from others. Paul did forbid me from taking photos of it just yet, and it's their IP, but think alien facehugger.

If you have any other questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability. If I am unable to, I will ask P&L directly.

-Rob

One more thing: My review I can say right now, my review won't be 100% blowing smoke up.....you know the rest. There are things I really like, and things I don't like with the Header. I will be as truthful and honest as I can be when finishin my review.

I never thought he or his shop were intentionally hiding anything for the record - just was speaking to Dimman's questions. I've had work done by P&L/Paul on various cars of mine dating back to 2006. He is a good guy.

The final dynos will speak for themselves and I would also think eventually if there are questions people have about the headers that OP cannot answer that somebody from P&L will come on the forum here and answer the questions. If you go to their web page or if you have seen cars with P&L parts, they make quality stuff and do great custom stuff as well.

On a side note, if anyone in Chicago want's to feel the car in person, I will be at the auto show tomorrow am when it opens. For the most part i am open to fellow enthusiast behind the wheel.

Due to unforeseen circumstances we weren't able to get the car on the dyno Monday. It has been rescheduled to Friday. Stay tuned.

staying tuned we are!

any ETA on this header. seems like everyone is working on a header and nothing is available but we all have money ready!!!! :lol: