Sad BRZ display at the auto show
 

Just returned from the last day of the Philly Auto show. They had a blue BRZ premium on the floor with the rubber window gasket hanging off the drivers side door, a trunk that would not close properly, and a signficant dent on the top of the trunk (looked like someone pushed too hard with their hand). Must have been a tough week!!

Yeah, it's rough for the cars that they let people sit in. People just don't have any respect.

it's those Genesis drivers!

or drive at the dealers!.i wouldn't buy one of these with more than 5 or 10 miles on it! screw it! all the salesmen say ohhh! it was gently driven! (b.s.)
when pressed ,they ALL indicate that the car was taken to redline! course,a lot of the salesmen don't five a f**k,and some are just f**king stupid anyway!

I would expect that at a Chevy dealer, but to be honest I've met a lot of Subaru salespeople and I've never met an a-hole or one that I thought would beat on a car or let a joyrider beat on one. Technicians on the other hand, those are the ones you gotta look out for. They just don't give a flying f**k.

i have encountered scion salesmen that have a ahhh so what attitude,and i attribute this
to the fact they don't see many of these cars,so there really isn't much in it for them! i can understand this,however from a consumer's perspective,i just don't trust this car with a lot of miles on it.i'll buy one with 5 or 10 miles on it only! besides,it's in the interests of the salesman to indicate it was gently driven when in reality it was not!.just don't trust it! as for the mechanics,i am in complete agreement.

Cars in autos shows get destroyed by the manufacturer.

I agree that I'd never buy one with more than 5 miles on it, cause I know firsthand what happens when you test drive one. Went to my local Scion dealership and test drove an FR-S with 85 miles on it, basically had a tech sit in the back seat and egg me on the whole time to get on it. When I took it to redline he said "Now you're driving". Sorry to whoever bought it!

At auto shows, trunk latches are usually disabled in some way to ensure that it doesn't close. The battery is usually disconnected at car shows so once the trunk is closed it cannot be reopened.

Unfortunately, many people aren't used to it so they try to slam the trunk closed repeatedly thinking something is wrong. Noobs at car shows :)

It was sad seeing that BRZ so abused

On the other hand it was a great opportunity to get a lot of plastic bits that I broke on my car.





(JK)

My BRZ had about 9 miles on it when I test drove it. When I was done with the test drive it had about 20 miles on it. My salesman did tell me to floor it when going onto the freeway portion of the test drive.

He also told me to take a sweeping turn as hard as I wanted to, to show off the handling. Rear end broke traction but ESC was on, so no harm. He seemed pretty cool about it.

I bought the car, so his machinations worked!

I also think vehicles are robust enough to take an occasional run up to redline during their break-in period. Whenever I tell my service advisors how I treat my car during break-in, they always look at me like I'm from another planet (because they think I am babying them too much). LOL.

The Charlotte Auto Show I went to earlier this year had am FR-S and BR-Z. Both looked in really good condition. Though it was early in the day. Also they had a Final Edition EVO for 40-something thousand. What a sad car that is. Next door was a pre-production Focus RS in black. Really fucking outstanding. Just blew me away in person. I soooooo want one.

Also a GT350 R.....
....
....

The car I test drove had about 30 miles. When I got on the interstate the salesperson was making motions to get back into the left lane and pick up some speed. Triple digits happened....

They know who they were selling to - A hot headed 20-something w/o kids and a death wish :bonk:

Keep in mind that cars are broken in at the factory. They aren't putting engines in the car that haven't been taken out on a test loop and absolutely thrashed to make sure it doesn't end up in a dealer's service center where they have wait for parts and pay a tech to fix it. It is better to try and break it at the factory. Not when a customer is banging gears, stalling, slamming on the brakes, etc. etc. They engineer the cars to take the abuse.

*PS

If you bought a Black 2016 FR-S from Scott Clark Toyota around August of 2015... My apologies.

Provided the car was properly warmed up its a good thing for them to be taken to redline early in life.

It's a sports car. Newsflash, they get driven like sports cars.

Says who? Genuinely curious here. All the break-in period stuff I see says to stay below 4000RPM and not to hold at any one speed/RPM for too long (i.e. no cruise control)

We took the original Mosler MT900 to the Miami auto show, and even though we had it roped off, with two people standing there to answer questions, idiots would go under/over/around the ropes to get in.

My scion dealer took us out back in a used 13' for donuts and shenanigans. He was crazy but I still respect his enthusiasm for the twins.

There is a camp that says rev the crap out of new engines to make things seat better. Maybe once was true but a bad idea with modern engines. Still some people stick with the theory no matter what the engineers that designed and built the car say. I for one will follow instructions.

You break a car in how you intend to drive it. And you maintain it to match. So if you intend to drive it like a Camry then break it in like one.

I drive it like what it is, so I'll take the word of people who build motors to do what I like doing with my car. 30k miles later and no oil consumption or problems as of yet.

I think people are pulling that assumption from older built cars, or people who have put cams in and break them in and assume it's the same way. In the motorcycle world its the same thing. I'd follow the manual as well just keep it under 4000 rpm and vary the RPMs.

*shrug*

You do what you want, but you're deluded if you think your owners manual was written by engineers and not lawyers.

Engines are broken in at the factory on a dyno. The rings are seated long before the car is put on a cargo ship and shipped around the world. With modern machining and precision the time it takes to seat the piston rings on an aluminum engine, full break in is done with one heat cycle after about 5 to 10 minutes.

As soon as a vehicle has ended it's assembly it is manually driven off the line. This is to insure the vehicle functions as intended. It is taken right over to a dyno and then runs a ramp up test sequence to break the motor in and then take it to redline. As well as component test in regards to the engine. Once this is done the vehicle is good to go and is shipped after a final inspection. You can actually see this in the video listed here: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El5vpA8wdAs"]The Factory Life: A Behind-the-scenes at Nissan production in Japan - YouTube[/ame]

It's a video of a Nissan production plant but the operations are similar across all manufactures. The dyno I mention you can see at the 4 minute and 8 second mark.

All this talk about what is and is not proper engine break in comes from old thinking and the Wiki article on Mechanical Run In (Break In) states such thought best: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-...hanical_run-in)

Subaru would not offer a 3 year engine warranty if they had no guarantee that you would follow the "proper" break in procedure to begin with. Its in their interest to break in an engine properly themselves then sell it to you. Then to hope you'll do it right yourself and if not then they eat the repair bill under warranty when engine issues arise.

Since when do manufacturers care how long your engine lasts? They only want it to cover the warranty. After that. They would LOVE to sell you some new rings. Lol.

They also say your first oil change isn't due until like 5000 miles. You believe that too? Personally I changed my oil at 1100 miles. And again at 3000. Don't want any chips or flakes floating around the oil and damaging bearings.

The factory didn't give us a magnetic drain plug either. Must be because the engineers know we don't need one right? Lol.

The break-in dyno at 7:27 for the BRZ:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZcX7Hawhk"]2 of 2 SUBARU BRZ Development Movie - YouTube[/ame]

Stupid owners manual

Hit the redline on the testdrive in mine. Over 30k miles now, and zero problems. I agree, the manual is written by lawyers, not engineers.

Doesn't prove that its a good idea or a bad idea.

I can cut my arm with a knife and my arm will still work fine, there might not even be a scar. A doctor wouldn't recommend that though.

I remember the last time I went to the LA Auto Show there was a kid sitting in a BMW Z4M Roadster slamming through the gears without the clutch. His brother was in the passenger seat banging on things, and his mom was standing beside taking pictures of them.

Ever since Toyota Camry's got the reputation of being low cost maintenance and lasting forever. If your engines won't last well past warranty then your reputation as a company goes down hill.

Again, if they don't break the engine in themselves, they're then relying on the consumer to do it properly. You never trust that a consumer will "follow every instruction to the letter". You can't even gurantee your sales men will follow the instructions as evident by the "take it to redline" sales men mentioned already. Your opening yourself to lots of money spent on potential engine failure claims in doing that.

All the backyard myths about engine break in's are just superstition based on kernels of truth. Engineers have figured out the science behind it along time ago. The machining and precision process has caught up to the point now an engine can be broken in and ready to go after one heat cycle under a stress test procedure (as seen in the video).

And to your other points, I changed my oil at 5500 miles for the first change. No issues with an Oil Analysis test. I must of just got lucky though you know? :lol:

Not many cars come from the factory with a magnetic drain plug also. Including hypercars, supercars, sports cars, corvettes, camaro's, mustangs, and what not. Never been a chronic issue. Matt Farrah's Million mile lexus didn't leave the factory with a mag plug either.

You can hold tight to your superstition and feel good and justified if your engine lasts and thats fine. Your "Break" in doesn't have any negative impact on the engine. So you can believe you've done your self well. Engineers will just get to have a small chuckle at the people who continue to do "break" in on new cars. Driving around varying speed and rpm and every other notion under the sun the first 100, 200, 500, or 1,000 miles or whatever specific measurement your particular break in belief is. Instead of just driving the vehicle the way its meant to be off the show room floor.

Well the lawyers thru class action lawsuits also figured long time ago that a modern automobile has an average usable life expectancy of 7 years / 160,000km. I would say that's how long a typical manufacturer cares about engine life.

agreed because I do NOT know better than the designers and engineers. So why would i do anything that they don't suggest in regards to the car they built?

I feel like somewhere in Bavaria a BMW builder is crying at that notion

Reputation. Why do you think Kia and Hyundai have exploded in sales in a last decade? They stand by their product and make something that doesn't fall apart. Not to mention they can also make a shitload of money selling extended warranties that are never used if they design the car to go as long as the extended warranty.


1) Original fill oil is very different than normal oil, removing it is going to cause more wear.


2) Original filter is usually very different too (at least on Toyotas).


3) You don't have metal floating around, it's called a filter...



Yet again, you have a filter. Magnetic drain plugs are for systems without filters; differential and transmission.

Weird. So you've never seen metal collect onto a magnetic drain plug? Also oil splashes around the pan and onto the crank. It's called unfiltered oil. Those tiny metal particles have a chance of splashing onto the crank.

Please tell us how super special this factory oil is. And where is the evidence showing that changing it after 1000 miles is causing more wear than keeping it in. I'd really love to see facts.

And the oil filter is different too? Wow. Lol.

I'm sorry. Did you think I drive the car lightly from day one? I'm the one disagreeing with keeping it under 4K rpm for the first 1000 miles. But ok then. Thanks for the essay.

Not sure about the filter, or whether special oil is actually used in our cars. But break-in oils do exist, google it.

But I guess you could also argue that break-in oil is snake oil. Might as well disprove the differences that exist between oil grades while you're at it.

And you doubt the effectiveness of a filter vs a magnetic drain plug? How are tiny metal particles going to wreck your engine more than redlining in the first few miles?

One person argues that lawyers wrote the manual, thats why the 4k RPM break-in limit is written in there. So why would lawyers suggest you do an oil-change at 5,000 miles rather than sooner if doing it sooner is safer for the engine?

I'm not a professional mechanic, but I can't help but notice the contradictions in this discussion. It must all be a freaking conspiracy.

Whether or not lawyers had an influence on the manual, I know engineers definitely did. I'm patient enough to keep my car under 4k RPM for a little bit and follow directions, even if it only means giving the dealership one less reason to reject warranty work.

You're welcome, glad to help buddy. :rolleyes:

1) It would collect on the magnet instead of the filter, big deal. All the oil is going to the pan first then to the filter.


2) Oil is not splashing from the pan to the crank. This is why there's baffles and deep sumps used and having the crank hit the oil in the pan would cause foaming (hint: foam = air = air doesn't lubricate)


3) The crank, cylinder walls, and pistons are all constantly sprayed with oil...that's been through the filter.


Original fill oil is very high in moly. Not to mention that the main issue with a super aggressive break in isn't wear, it's HEAT. Properly heat cycling everything and not letting things get overly hot while the friction is still relatively high compared to a fully broken in motor. Moly combats this. The same goes for the drivetrain (If you've ever had a break in a new ring and pinion you know this...)



Yes, not sure on the twins though. Toyota break in filter looks like this
http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/atta...1_original.jpg


:search: Do you really need to be spoon fed? Ignorance is curable, do some reading, please.

Remember that time Mercedes transmissions were sealed. Called them lifetime maintenance free transmissions! Never needs service! Lol. Then like clockwork they exploded at 100k miles. But yes. You're right. Changing the oil frequently in my engine is going to hurt. Taking out all the precious molys. The manual knows all.

Engine shops a that do builds and rebuilt bikes get broke in at high revs because they have not had any break in yet. The engines at the factory are broken in under very controlled conditions including the proper duration and revs for each power band. The whole idea of driver break in is just so that you do not change these parameters.
The whole "procedures written by lawyers" thing is hilarious and wrong. They may be involved but it is the engineering team that makes the call on what should be done and they have valid reasons for saying what they do.

Not hurting thing by shifting the gears when the car is not running.