Are you willing to push your car off a cliff?
 

What do you frequent track enthusiasts do about track insurance? The following statement has been posted many times, "if you can't push your car off a cliff and walk away, then you shouldn't track your car."

Are you willing to push your car off a cliff? :brokenheart:

I've thought about the question many times, and the risk/reward just isn't worth it to me. Maybe I'll purchase a $3k Civic and track with that instead. For now, I'll stick with autox, where the risk and damage are relatively low.

That's my personal philosophy. I know the risk of serious damage at a NASA HPDE or SCCA PDX are pretty low, but I have seen accidents happen at them, and even if you don't do anything wrong, someone else can lose their brakes or lose control and take you out.

I only take cars that are paid for to the track. Lately that is my Mustang. When my BRZ is paid off or very nearly so in a year or two, then I'll take it to track days as well. I have thought about getting track day insurance for the BRZ and take it out occasionally, but IIRC that would add another $150-200 to the cost of each track day, which isn't worth it for me since I have other options.

I'm sure a lot of tracks vary, but all the tracks around me, everyone is very respectful to each other and passing and are cautious to who is around them. Yes, there are always accidents, but personally, I'd rather be around people who truly know how to drive than a congested highway full of teenagers who can't take their eye of the cell.

I don't know how dependable these insurance policies are. Even for a regular accident in public streets, it seems like insurance companies will try everything they can to deny your claim.

I agree with what you said in terms of safety. However, you have insurance when you get hit in public streets, but insurance is a little more grey at track events.

Me too, but I'd rather be insured in both cases.

Between registration costs/fuel/tires/brake pads&fluid/various oil changes etc and extra wear&tear $150 bucks isn't that much.

Paging @CSG Mike and @robispec since they frequently visit the track.

Agreed! And don't get me wrong, Its not something I would do with my car because I depend on my car too much to get to work and school and I can't afford the repair costs or life without it, But under the assumption that money isn't an issue, I would take it out to the track, why not.

a little bit stark but as with anything risk can be managed or planned for.

Robi

Almost forgot @Dave-ROR.

I use lockton affinity for HPDE insurance. I've talked to people who have had claims and haven't had any issues but thankfully I haven't had to make a claim yet. I also don't drive 10/10ths in my street cars.

This is probably the key. The track incidents almost never happen in the novice group. It's the advanced guys that run into problems because they are running so close to the edge.

I try to remember that I'm just there to have fun, not break any records. I think there's a 'sweet spot' when it comes to lap times for a specific car. Too high, and you're just driving too slow. Too low, and you're really taking risks. At the right pace, you're having fun, doing well, and taking lower risks.

That being said, you can't control the environment and the cars around you. This is where being able to walk way from the car if something happens or buying insurance comes into play.

Accidents do happen, but the risks can be mitigated with thoughtful driving - as said in many posts already. Ask around and pick a club or organization in your area with good people and track rules created with safety in mind. Then, if you are new to the track, insist on having an instructor you are compatible with ride with you during every session. The instructor should be skilled enough to know when you are driving over your head and either talk you into slowing down until you learn more or take you into the pits for a talk (or both). Since you seem to be the cautious type, a good instructor may need to push you to go just a little faster as well, so get someone you can trust. If you enjoy autocrossing, you should be able to enjoy a longer track given a situation you feel comfortable with. If you realize that your goal in a HPDE is to enjoy your car at speeds that are not safe on public roads, NOT to race or set the fastest time, you should be fine. If you want to race there are other places for that.

For myself, I am considering buying track day insurance for my next event(s). Since I am an instructor (15 years with the BMWCCA), I usually don't pay for track time so a few hundred for insurance may be worth it. By the way, you don't need a BMW to join the BMW club and participate in events. SCCA and NASA are other good sources to look at when choosing a club. The best club for you will depend on where you are, what is available, and most importantly the people who are in your local club.

NO Way! If I ever do a track day it'll be insured.

Thanks for the advice. Could I get a ride along the next time you're up at BIR (no intention to drive)?

I am not willing to push my car off a cliff, but also, i'm not racing competitively. I'm running my car in HPDE and there isn't a lot of pushing for position or driving 10/10s to pass on the outside of the carousel or anything. In fact, they dissuade people from passing in the corners and suggest waiting for the straights. I suppose the primary things i have to worry about are my cars' systems holding up. There are other variables, but i don't think it's as dangerous as competitive driving.

This is so true in my motorcycle trackdays.. If you can't run down the straight for the first time, and in the first corner be willing to accept you can dump the bike and ruin it... Then you don't need to be at the track with it.. Because just like that it can happen.. I've taken it to the track one
Ce, my new bike.. And that's it.. I lost the front in the bowl at SoW and saved it on my knee.. I pulled it straight in and started pulling the tape off and packing thing up..

That said.. My State Farm insurance at the time caved both my car and bike as long as it was a HPDE and not competition.. I haven't checked with USAA yet.. My State Farm did say that each and every claim submitted is looked at and she can not and will not say that my claim would be accepted if something did happen

I believe in that environment, your liable for just yourself correct.. I mean if someone plowed through me for a mistake on either end.. It's just small claims court right.. And even then your not guarantee a settlement, because you took the risk to put yourself into that situation right?? If someone spins in front of me, who's at fault, him for spinning or me for hitting him.. Or vise versa.. The 2 second rule apply at the track?? Lol

I'd be interested in hearing what USAA says. I've read mixed things. There was even a post where someone was dropped by them over just asking about coverage.

Thanks.. I'll have my pops look it up on the Internet.. He has a copy of all the policy stuff, that he used when we rented a uhaul trailer and was told USAA coved the trailer not to get the coverage from uhaul.. Sure enough.. With his policy it was covered.. :thanks:

All part of the risk.

First time out, 9:05AM.

Before:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/4584e355.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/61e23f9e.jpg

After:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/acdf08d2.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/f06958e5.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/52359fb3.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...82324878_n.jpg



Solid concrete wall is solid. :P Autocross is about as safe as you're going to get crash-wise, but still quite the strain on parts.

I don't think the "push your car off a cliff" metaphor is appropriate. Because if it was true then you shouldn't be driving your car at all.

Accidents at race tracks occur 80% of driver error, 10% weather,4% mechanical and 1% dumb luck.

If you stay away from rainy days, maintain your car, and don't drive like an idiot you will be safe for many laps.

All of my offs and incidents at the track, even during rainy days, were a result of my own stupidity, and they ONLY happened when I was going at 100%.

The moment you turn it down a notch, even a little bit, you get grip everywhere and the whole experience becomes much less hectic. This is what lapping days are, essentially.


So the question should be not "would you care if you pushed your car off a cliff" but "how good does your brain work and are you willing to endure a journey of humility and self-discovery through meticulous trial and error?"

If you go to a track with the mentality that you will crash, then you WILL crash.

*Also I would like to point out that there are tracks which chew cars up for the smallest mistakes and there are tracks that you can drive blind-folded while drinking scotch and jerking off and nothing would happen to you. So make the smart choice and don't start out from the high end tracks.

INSURANCE! THAT'S WHAT IT EXISTS FOR!

That's why I downgraded from an M3 to the FR-S. I'm more comfortable with the cost of crashing it.

That's one of the reasons I just bought the FR-S in the first place!!!

I'm curious as to how many on here are tracking and also have a lien on the car. I think I'll be pushing mine at about 70-80%. Limerock is pretty unforgiving with mistakes.

What happens when the drivers around you aren't playing by the same set of rules?

Auto insurance policies vary from state to state, but in NC are likely covered, but you will also need a new insurance carrier after a claim (been there, done that - USAA gave me the boot). It's nice that my current insurance agent is also a track/autocross guy. i can call him and ask the hard questions without fear of reprisal.

you report them to the organizers and they get kicked off the track or black listed all-together

if you're at an event that does not have such a policy or iron-handed organizers that put safety above all else, then don't go to such events.

in the states you guys have the whole HPDE thing and graduated licensing, as far as i know people that start out fresh have to ride with instructors for a year before they can go out by themselves.

we have a similar system, other clubs/organizers don't

choose where you wish to play


* for instance, at all of our events passing is point by and only at designated areas (such as straights). No racing for corners or diving bombing. If our marshals see you breaking this rule or another driver reports you for such reckless behavior, your day is over and we send you home. We state this explicitly at each drivers meeting early in the morning and we make sure everyone attends the driver's meeting.

I used lockton affinity every time I go to the track

I think the better thing to ask yourself is the risk vs. the reward.

Could something happen? Yes. Could you also be perfectly fine? Yes.

I tracked my S2000 once when I had a lien on it still. I payed it off shortly after and it has now become a track only car. Ive done some body damage to it twice, each time it happens I just laugh about it, fix it and move on.

Once you wreck, you can't do anything about it, so why get worked up over it, right? That's just stupid.

I honestly don't think insurance companies should cover you when you're on track. Special track day insurance, sure, but to have your street coverage cover your track time without any additional increase doesn't seem appropriate.

That's like a smoker paying the same for health insurance as a non-smoker (at least here in the USA).

Tracking a car has inherent risks but you can significantly reduce them with preparation, behavior and choice.

Prep:
Car prep: so things don't go wrong at speed.
Driver prep: remembering what you're there for aka: it's not a competition.

Behavior:
Acting like and adult on track.
Not driving beyond your talent.
Listening and taking instruction and knowing when to seek it.

Choice:
Choice what to prep, how to behave and where and who to play with.
Insurance provider: Will I be insured on track, if not am I still willing to play?
Track choice: Is there more than one track available for me to play at and which track is inherently more dangerous in the case of an "incident"?
Club choice: Some clubs are Liaise-Fair when it comes to safety but most are very safety focused. Get some feedback from folks who have tracked with various clubs and inquire to how they run their operation and make your choice.


At the end of the day, it's all about fun and safety.

If you find yourself needing to "compete" at a track day then you should go home or the organization should send you home.


Example of "clearly having fun"... But maybe don't be this guy. NEMESIS!!! :lol:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPfxtJ8SQgk"]Porsche vs Mustang NEMESIS!!!!! - YouTube[/ame]




And just for kicks and giggles:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8"]Trackday Comedy - FLAT OUT - YouTube[/ame]

When you have a lien and you wreck your car, does your lien holder want you to pay the rest of the amount, or can you still continue to make monthly payments? I'm guessing that you'll need to pay for the entire car since it lost majority of its value.

Why is it hard to understand that track insurance is available at a fair price?!?

You spend $25k on the car, another few grand in track prep, and you can't spend another $200 for HPDE insurance?

What's on the fine line though? How much are you covered for? Is it insurance for damage to the track, damage to the car, 2-5 million lawsuit filed by the grieving half-sister of the dude you ran over?

You put too much faith in insurance companies.

I also don't like the "push your car off a cliff" metaphor - that implies you intend to total your car. Contact eventually happens to most who track their car on a regular basis. Some total their car first time out, some have a minor scuff on track day #300. You have to accept that as a possibility and plan accordingly.

7th - I'm assuming there's no science behind your accident rate study? Short of driving into an unexpected blizzard or dense fog, I'm not sure how weather would "cause" an accident. And your rate only adds up to 95%.:)

After around ten years of tracking my 944, I'm going through that decision all over again. Taking the more important personal injury risk out of the discussion, here's my thought:

Wad up (or blow up) my 944 - that woud sort of suck.
Wad up (or blow up) my Boxster - that would suck even more
Wad up (or blow up) my FR-S - that would suck even more, plus I'd have to figure out plan B to get to work on a regular basis.

of course my stats are made up and entirely anecdotal,

:)

by weather i mean rain days at the track. Some people refuse to go out.

Also a wet day at the track can be freighting because not only do you have to keep the "wet line" at all times, sometimes that wet line crosses the dry line and you get some funky results.

A wet day at the track will test your car handling skills more than anything else.

I'm curious as well as long as people don't mind sharing that information.

+1 for Lockton HDPE insurance

What are you talking about? Buying tack day insurance specifically insuring ON TRACK collisions with other cars or barriers.

I'm NOT talking about my regular policy that covers my car in the road.

$200 for HPDE insurance for a day is the same as the cost of that same HPDE event that you're running. Depending on your situation, thats another car payment. :confused0068: