Questions and Discussion on Vortech Supercharging Systems
 

In an attempt to stop the Perrin threads from getting drastically off course, please pose all questions and/or comments about the Vortech systems not directly associated with Perrin/Visconti/etc.'s own versions of Vortech System packages they are selling in this thread instead of theirs.

Thank You

What is the max rpm of the SC included in the kit? What rpm is the SC at when the engine is at stock redline with the 'stock' pulley? With the smaller pulley? Why doesn't the kit include a pressure regulator so a smaller pulley can be run to maintain a boost pressure instead of only reaching max boost at the end of the rpm range?

That all I've got for now. Thanks a ton for doing this!

The V-3 H67BC Supercharger has a maximum impeller speed of 50,000 rpm

The pulley that is included with the kit is a 3.60" pulley on the supercharger. The impeller speed at 7,400 engine rpm with this pulley would be 41,588.

We have several to choose from.

A 3.48" S/C Pulley = 43,022 @ 7,400 engine rpm
A 3.40" S/C Pulley = 44,034 @ 7,400 engine rpm
A 3.33" S/C Pulley = 44,960 @ 7,400 engine rpm
A 3.25" S/C Pulley - 46,066 @ 7,400 engine rpm
A 3.125" S/C Pulley = 47,909 @ 7,400 engine rpm
A 2.87" S/C Pulley = 52,166 @ 7,400 engine rpm, which is beyond the maximum impeller speed, and therefore we would advise against utilizing with this system.

Because we design our systems to reach a maximum boost pressure at redline, for a linear boost curve and maximum efficiency. Spinning a compressor faster just to intentionally bleed off cfm reduces the efficiency of operation, and therefore lessens the benefit of a high efficiency supercharger such as a Vortech.

You are most welcome.

Wow, awesome!

So, assuming an otherwise stock setup, approximately what boost pressure would be reached with each pulley? Or would that be so variable that it would impractical to answer?

So as i have said the SC is underdriven by plus 16%

So you are NOT even utilising the SC to its ability at all. You have purposely geared it down to get this to run at 7 psi at red line 7,400.
So if that be the case i wont argue against that at all but where does it sit on the island plot. Care to share that ?

Your comment quote

"Because we design our systems to reach a maximum boost pressure at redline, for a linear boost curve and maximum efficiency. Spinning a compressor faster just to intentionally bleed off cfm reduces the efficiency of operation, and therefore lessens the benefit of a high efficiency supercharger such as a Vortech "

Is not accurate as its NOT at its maximum boost its undergeared.

Why was this so HARD to squeeze out the information ? Personally i am totally surprised NO ONE had brought this up at all.

Dude, you need to chill out. Vortech is doing the community a huge solid by being active on the boards. This kind of behavior discourages other vendors from becoming actively involved in the community and hurts everyone.

What are you doing to ensure the Bearings and Seals do not fail?

I don't really know if actually understand the way it works. It reaches maxium boost for the pulley size. Smaller pulley = more boost, if you over spin the SC it will overspin the unit. If you want higher boost than this unit you'll have to wait till vortech make a bigger unit.

what impeller speed/pulley size is needed on the 86 kit to reach say 7psi at 4000rpm if you're using a wastegate/bypass valve or similar to bleed boost to maintain 7psi from 4000rpm to redline?

Compressor map would be nice.

As an engineer, I completely understand this. As a customer, I don't really give a damn.

My dream SC would hit full boost early in the revs and hold it like a turbo. This would give the torque curve of a turbo, the response of a supercharger, without the horrid whine of a roots type.

Can your company deliver this?

-Acree

Aren't you describing a twinscrew?

Im relaxed buddy. Its just as soon as someone questions something many turn on you , what for ?

Im not trying to discourage Vortech but rather the information be given. They do know the answers i seek just crazy that noone has asked.

I would like to know is the SC being limited to 7 psi because thats what they believe the max for the engine Stock ?

You have to be aware the way the SC belt driven works that its geared to maximum psi at red line. This belieng under geared the system will be running mostly only 3-4 psi, unless you red line every gear.
This is not how we drive on the street.

I for one do love the reponse of a belt driven SC but being this low its a waste since you will have 7 psi at 7,400.
Then there are other calculations like the drain of the SC on the engine and the psi lost in the IC.

Dito ! Again why hasnt it been posted.

Dont know how people buy but gee i would want to see that way before i even entertained the thought of buying something.

No as stated the pulley supplied causes the SC not to reach 100% at 7,400 rpm . To do that the SC pulley needs to be smaller which at a guess the SC would most likely reach at least 10 - 12 psi.

Having said that the engine might not handle it or there may be MANY claims of blown up engines.

Its being super safe as pointed out most of the time it will be around 3 - 4 psi only.

If thats enough and YOU are happy well let it be so but the information has to be explained to those who dont know.

Imagine the SHOCK when put on a dyno and all it shows 5 psi because of timing beling pulled because the IAT's are high and all you get it 200 rwhp

What i like about the 86 is thats its open to a whole new audiance of members.
The engine is N/A so there is no bias about members flogging you if you take the SC route as there is with cars that are available in Turbo format from factory like the SW20 MR2.
So there is an open mind. But the correct info needs to be explained because ill tell you that if a turbo is doing 7 psi it will run circles over the SC.
THERE IS SO MUCH IMPATIENCE. Why is everyone in such a hurry ? To be first ?

Is it possible to change out the unit into a bigger unit? I know it was common practice in the s2k scene. I'm just interested in a larger unit for the future.

Would it be possible to install a waste gate on the intake side instead of a bypass to regulate the top end psi? From what I remember bypass is either open or close, but I could be wrong.
For example 1 Pulley setup for 7 psi at 7400 rpm and makes 4-5 psi at 4000-5000 rpm
example 2 with waste gate: pulley for 12 psi at 7400 rpm and makes 6-7 psi at 4000-5000 rpm, but have the waste gate regulate it at 8psi like a turbo setup.
Is this even possible? Sorry If I don't make any sense.

When will CARB E.O. be granted?

Should'nt be high at all if there is an intercooler in the system - which there is. Timing values are likely to be quite close to stock if the IAT are under control from the intercooler - which would be a piece of cake to do at 5psi

No you're not relaxed. Your posts portray a lot aggression towards Vortech. I'm not sure why because he's answering all your questions.

You do pose a good question about the 7 psi. Was that an original psi goal? If so, why?

"This belieng under geared the system will be running mostly only 3-4 psi, unless you red line every gear." Now my understanding of this type of supercharger is it has a linear boost curve. Which means that max boost is at redline. So yeah under normal driving conditions that's how it's gonna work.

From what I've gathered from your interrogation of Vortech is that this isn't a system for you. You'd like something with instant max boost and that works at the bleeding edge of performance.

Either way I'm bouncing around between this kit or the Full Blown turbo kit. And I'd like to thank Vortech for being on these forums and answering all our questions. Customer service is just as important to me as the performance of a product. Thank you.

I've read through some of his other thread posts and came to a couple conclusions. First is that what you interpret as interrogation is just his posting/writing style. Second is that he has centri sc experience. Not just kit install, but sizing, speed selection, cooler selection and what not.

Everyone else just hears Vortech's PR monkey tell us it's going to awesome and goes 'OK!' If you have a better understanding, but no specs, everything is suspect. Especially when the PR monkey comes off as condescending regarding technical questions.

Not all of us, bro. Keep in mind this is before any specs were revealed.

Then this:


As was pointed out Mandalay was NOT incorrect, he was referring to shaft speed, not impeller. If PR monkey cannot recognize that, and instantly comes up with a condescending attack, what does that say of the professionalism of this company?

And we still don't have a compressor map.


People need to get over the 'they are doing sooo much for the community, that we should thankful and reverential' attitude. They are here to make money.

posts 13,14,15 & 16 suggest your are not relaxed enough, or is that just normal for you?

at some point, if its not for you, its just trolling, unless youre out on every vendors thread acting this way, which isnt the case. thank you.

As far as I"m concerned, Mandalay is doing the community a huge solid by explaining provided info and asking questions that you and others have not.

Further, I believe the title of this thread is "questions and discussion".

See im not one of those guys that holds everything to himself . I not only share my very good experiences but also my fails.

This really doesnt have anything to do with Vortech persay its more to understand the principles of a belt driven SC.

Think of it this way 2+2 = 4 but also 1+3 =4

I have talked to some of the best all around the world and i mean talk not internet.

If my preference is for the Rotrex and not the Vortech thats my decision and one that another thread could be started. If i posted that here it would be seen as bias.
All im asking is for the facts so members will know what they get.

Believe me when i say i want the Vortech to suceed , why not ? I dont have any commercial interest at all. All my systems have always been one of , for me.

It would just be good to see that they disclose everything about the kit and thats why i posted so as the non informed maybe can get something by my questions

Again buddy bring up another point . If i were to sell a kit , which i wont , ild be selling it like no tomorrow on all its points

Aesthetics
Power
Upgrade ability
Show gains
Show loses
Temperature points

etc

Have any these been menioned ?
IC effectiveness, psi lose , IAT's

In a mad rush to get kits out , lots of this info hasnt been shared. Gee i thought i would see IAT's of the stock engine then with the kit installed.

If this info is being kept secret because of commercial interest so be it but say it.
Do you think Bullet doesnt have all the answers well they DO. Its just that they keep quiet

Interested
 

It would be interesting to see this data from all the producers - have the turbo kit manufacturers and other SC kit manufacturers listed all their data to the extent that Mandalay is requiring from Brian?

I don't think any of the other SC or TC kits have done it, but that shouldn't be a free pass to not answer the questions ( or at least say hey, its proprietary information can't disclose). If anything, releasing all the information will probably win more customers for Vortech in the transparency front.

Just my 0.02 on the topic.

I do not know Mandalay personally, but I do have a MR2 Turbo I restored from the ground up. I had followed many of his posts on the MR2 forum. I have learned a lot from him and he has always been helpful to forum members. We need people like him to always question status quo. How else will we improve as a community? Our loyalty should be to each other, not the vendors (i do not mean that we should treat them with disrespect).

Brian, I hope you don't mind me dropping in here, but I'd like to clear up a couple things. I got to install and play with one of these kits already and was impressed, and I see a lot of very interested people asking some educated questions!

Superchargers don't make boost pressure, they flow a measurable mass of air ~ that boost pressure that you read (and base all of your judgments on) is a measure of the restriction the engine places on the blower. I know people like to refer to pulley size and "how many psi it will make", but that doesn't make sense unless everyone's engines are identical (and I'd hope that the supercharger early adopters at least have an exhaust, and probably other breathing mods). Pounds per minute (lbs/min) or cubic feet per minute (CFM, brings air density into the mix, so not as relateable) are how you quantify a compressor.

All of Vortech's other maps are available here:
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...pressor%20maps , and I'm guessing the new maps (they just came out with this wheel and another T-trim billet wheel I believe) will be up fairly soon. Turbine speed isn't graphed on there, but knowing what kind of power these are making in this application, look around the 30-40lbs/min area and see how efficient you are at 1.5-2atm (10psi-14psi).

It shouldn't surprise you that a production kit from the largest aftermarket supercharger manufacturer left some performance on the table ~ Vortech kits have always been well engineered, low- to no-compromises systems for the everyman, not racer-only packages that eek out every drop of performance to the detriment of reliability, packaging, etc. That's why they have partner shops :)

As far as lubrication goes, the kit is self-lubricated, but still serviceable (doesn't require an oil line and drain, but you can still change the supercharger oil every 10k mi or whatever the suggested interval is). This is AWESOME, since you don't run into all the problem of "oil-less" turbines, but still get the install convenience of oil-less. For endurance racing guys I'd recommend an engine oil feed, but I'm curious where they draw the line - if the average trackday guy can run their internally lubricated setup with no issues I'll be smitten.

Ditto. This is what interests me most about this kit.

I'm curious as to how this kit fits with the windshield washer resevoir...

Is the pulley size required to get 7psi at 4000rpm 1.95"?

Second that.

I think that has been answered and it was no.

I agreed with your comments.

The SC pumps air. The higher the restriction of the the engine the more pressure you will have. Idealy if the engine breaths well , the engine uses the air and converts it to power.
I have seen a K24 make 450 RWHP with a big SC and the engine was Stock but only register 18 psi

With my other car , she breaths really well due to the head design and i get much more power with a lower PSI reading.

With regards to the kit this is what is important . What is the pressure drop of the IC. How low do the IAT's get ?
Data Data Data ? Selling a kit these should have been shown , mention and actually if they are good bragged about but nothing there ?

With the stock ECU/no SC/stock airbox I didn't log IATs, and you'd really have to do a back/back on the same day to have good data. I'd be more than happy to log IATs when the ambient temps come back up to 80+ with a diag tool.

The pressure drop across the piping and intercooler is going to be tiny, my educated guess is less than 1psi. The intercooler is plenty big for 40lbs/min and moreover, I think every forced induction kit will use a VERY similar piping/IC design due to the throttle body placement (not really a whole lot you can do, to shorten the piping would mean more bends).

I think there would IAT's logged when the car was on the dyno tuning ?

standard practise to log IAT's on the dyno over here... But in NA form I'd be quite suprised if the intake temps were more than a few degree's different to ambient

Are colder spark plugs needed with this kit?

Does this have some sort of bypass valve (open when not in boost) like the positive displacement blowers do?