Toyobaru Vs. Volkswagen GTi?
 

Tbh, I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet (at least to my knowledge, I have tried searching). But specwise, aren't these two cars pretty similar?
Both have compact size, relatively low weight (GTi a bit heavier at 3000lb but makes up for it with 207lb/ft of torque), both in the 200hp range. Now before you guys point out the obvious, I know I know. Gti is FWD, hatchback, and FI. But nonetheless, the price point of it puts it in the FRS/BRZ category. So what do you guys think about the GTi? Worthy competitor or just another overweight turbocharged hot hatch?

On a side note, I drove the hyundai GC, 2.0t today and the GTi as well. The GC felt terribly stiff, with really heavy steering and delayed throttle response. It just didn't felt as fast as it looked. On the other hand, the GTi performed like a champ. lol but seriously, I drove the DSG version (flameshield on s:) and it's a great little car. Handles well, eager to rev, and DSG is lightning fast and smooth. I think it might be the lower weight of the GTi, but FWD didn't feel all that bad to me, compared to the GC anyways. So that's my opinion of both cars, let me know what you guys think.

I have a GTI, it has a lot of body roll in the corners and there is tons of wheel hop in first and second gear if you try to use power in a turn. It's ok I guess, not a sports car but a sporty hatch.

As you have already mentioned, FWD vs RWD is the single largest identifiable difference between these two cars.

In my opinion, you simply can not compare a FWD car to a RWD car. FWD cars can be extremely fast and capable cars, but they will never truly be sports cars. Push the limits in the GTI and you will find yourself fighting under-steer and torque-steer. Push the limits in the Toyobaru and you will learn what a sports car is...

it really depends on what you want to do with the car

some people here are gonna drift the car and well FWD + drift = fail

FWD can be lighting fast but they rarely ever give off that sporty driving feel to me (ITR excluded)

Not comparable cars. GTI is going to be nicer, and more practical. The coupe will be more pure a driving experience, and handle better.

A comparable car would be MINI Coupe S 2 seater or even the Cooper S. Don't let the 180hp and fwd fool you. At WOT it hits like 205 tq with overboost at 1600rpm holding off til like 4500rpm where HP takes over. The are fast cars that handle beautifully. *Note I'm biased having owned 2 MINIs and still currently own one..

I'd also like to mention that a perfect new compact car garage would be Lotus Elise, BRZ/FRS and MINI Coupe S.. all that is missing from this equation is a new awd, lightweight, turbo car.

Are they designed to do the same thing? No. Are people going to cross shop them? Yes.


A lot of people will be using their FR-Ss and BRZs as street cars. They're similarly sporting and similarly priced, offering similar options. They just balance priorities differently. The Toyobaru chooses sportiness at the expense of practicality, the GTI the inverse. Someone looking for a fun, engaging, daily driver really should consider both.


Ummmmm, WRX or STI? Evo?

The issue with the new turbo Cooper S is the same HPFP issue that BMW had with the 3.0 turbo motors. They malfunctioned at a staggering rate. BMW issued a recall. MINI did not. My friend had a turbo Cooper S when warranty expired. He dumped it 10 months later because of the HPFP issue.

Ass backwards on the side of the road? :bellyroll:

I really liked the new Mini Coupe until I saw the price. It's not awful, just a bit more than I expected. I think I'd rather have the 500 Abarth with the Esseesse package. Or if we're jumping up to the JCW, I'd rather have a Golf R.

I loved my MKV GTI. It was a nice sporty car with an amazing interior for the price. Not really a sports car, but enough pep to get out of its own way.

I think some people will cross shop against FWDs, but a Golf? Do you guys get the Renault Megane Trophee over there?

Yes, you wouldn't consider a Golf over a Mini, but you'd also not consider a Mini over the Megane.

That's not dissing the Mini as I've been involved in campaigning them, the Renault is just that good.

we dont get any renaults over here

Can't compare pigs to compacts.

About the MINIs
New Late 2010 and 2011+ N18 motors are better in terms of reliability and power. The old 07-10 N14 were somewhat grenades if not maintained properly.. basically beyond manufacturer's intervals

Also the HPFP is not a wide spread issue as much, BUT it's guaranteed and warrantied until 110k miles/unlimited years after all warranties are already exhausted, the part and labor is covered still. IF it dies at 109k, it's replaced and it has a 2 year warranty thereafter on part and labor. That's how MINIUSA rolls, and that's why I still own one.

I'd rather have a Scirocco R in the states over a Megane Trophy

[QUOTE=Scottyscooter;92426]As you have already mentioned, FWD vs RWD is the single largest identifiable difference between these two cars.
QUOTE]

Height is also very different between these two cars. Golf is high as hell.

no way gti :thumbdown: never in my life!!
every sucker in germany has a gti

i love the understanding of performance of the GT 86 not only the power but also lightweight an the most important, its a car not everyone knows what it can do in the corner;-)

I predict some people are going to "drift" the FRS/GT86/BRZ even when they do not intend to and there will be some crumpled sheet metal as a result. Chalk it up to a generation born and raised on front wheel drive cars and massive built in understeer.

It's funny but this is what I love about it. You actually like LIGHT steering and a soft chassis feeling???

Modern day sportscar?

"I predict some people are going to "drift" the FRS/GT86/BRZ even when they do not intend to and there will be some crumpled sheet metal as a result. Chalk it up to a generation born and raised on front wheel drive cars and massive built in understeer. "

I predict that GT 86 is very predictable and very well balanced car to drive. For beginners, i think it is quite easy to handle. :burnrubber:

This might be personal preference but to me, the steering wheel felt like it was almost stuck on with glue. It's not really like luxury-car stiff steering either. Almost like the steering wheel didn't want to turn. When I compared this to the GTI, the steering just felt more accurate and precise.

more the VW Scirocco R

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2232

[u2b]kVTc1-vck0Q[/u2b]

Sadly, the Scirocco isn't available in the United States. :(

The review in that video is one of the most uninspiring and boring ones I've ever heard. If that were audio only, I would have forgotten what car he was talking about because it was so dull. :)

Don't listen to this guy, a GTI is a very competent car especially in the twisties. Sadly a lot of people don't really get the concept of 'weight transfer' while taking corners and just let the chassis sort everything out for them (then complain about bodyroll, or understeer lol.)

Also, keep your traction control on if you're so bothered by wheel hop, the GTI isn't equipped with an LSD (so OBVIOUSLY will have wheel hop) but has a traction control that 'bypasses' the problem by lightly applying braking on the wheel (and not cutting off any power like most traction controls) that is slipping so that the power is sent to the other wheel with traction.

I think the FT-86 is a totally different kind of car and that there is no point in even trying to compare the two as they are both very competent cars at what they do. If you just want to know which one will be the fastest between red lights, then the GTI will probably win as it has much more torque and pretty high end rubber standard.

The GTI is OK, but it is definitely not going to provide the level of fun that a lightweight RWD coupe will. That is not an opinion it is a fact.

Anti slip regulation will lower the power in the GTI when it detects a loss in traction. Only way to turn it off is through turning off traction control. This will also turn off the Electronic Differential Lock as well as Anti slip regulation.

On the newer GTI with the XDS, perhaps it is different.

You can never turn off traction control in the GTI, you can turn off ASR (Anti-Slip Regulation), only.

On the 07 model that i have...it turns off both EDL and ASR. Only ABS stays active

The GTI and FR-S might be two very different cars, but that doesn't mean people won't cross-shop between them because they will likely have some overlapping price points. As such, it's still worth comparing the two against each other to understand the pros and cons of each.

The only factual thing here is that "fun" is subjective to each individual, and each individual will have their own opinion of what's fun.

One aesthetic thing the GTi excels at is the wheel fitment. It sits more flush with a nice gap along wheel well. Many VWs I see on the road are like this. I don't understand why the FR-S/BRZ could not come like this from the factory.

I owned a '10 GTI for a short while as I was searching for my TDI. Fundamentally they're the same car, with basically just the engine being different. The engine, however, makes all the difference. The GTI might've had decent pace, but it sounded coarse, harsh, and uninviting. It sounded and felt like it would rather commit suicide than be a good driving partner. I couldn't bond with the car solely from the engine character. The heavy unsprung mass from the suspension also gave the car a clompy, awkwardly footed feeling. The TDI is much lighter on its feet [lighter wheels and brakes], but its engine is also much more interesting, fun, and soulful. It's slower overall pace is more than made redundant by the fun interaction with the engine. As such, the GTI, while the jack of all trades, is definitely the master of none.

What model year? The Mk6 has very well controlled body motion, though it still has some wheel hop when you drive it like a retard.


Ughk, have you actually driven the MINI Coupe? It's the worst handling MINI, and the worst R56 derivation, ever. Dead steering feel but still torque steers, twitchy chassis, yet understeers madly when driven cleanly. It is an embarrassment to all GP's and R50/53's around the world. The Countryman All4 is fun; the Coupe is frustrating. Who cares that the engine has some torque once you push the sport button and smash the pedal to the floor and eventually the turbo catches wind of your intentions. The chassis stinks. Case closed. Oh, not to mention the Coupe is completely absurd looking. Styled after the designers' son wearing a backwards baseball cap? This might've been slightly cool for a minute in the 90's, but not now. The only new MINI worth buying right now is the Countryman All4, and that's only out of desperation for brand loyalty, not because it's genuinely good.


So, back to the GTI. No, it's not competition to the FR-S/BRZ. The GTI is for people that are willing to give up connection and fun for a bigger box that can haul a bunch of stuff, and 4 people comfortably. It's no sports car.

Exactly! The GTI is not a sports car, never will be. People saying that the MK6 doesn't have body roll never owned one.

erm, it doesn't have much body roll. Certainly not much compared to most cars. Even then, the GTI handles quite well, but it's not all that involving behind the wheel. Not sure what your point is anyway; body roll is not an indication of performance or grip, just suspension movement. The Lotus Elise has a ton of body roll with the standard suspension, way more than the Mk6 GTI.

Body roll is an indication of chassis rigidity, which does indicate handling performance.

Body roll means the chassis is flexing, which means the weight is transferring to one side, which means you have reduced traction on 2 of your wheels in a turn.

i think we just found the wrongest words ever typed on a forum.

thats not how it works. ryephile explained how roll is a function of moving parts in a suspension and weight transfer causes roll not the other way around so even if you do get rid of roll you didnt get rid of weight transfer. the only downside of roll i can think of is that as you go farther away from the resting point, your suspension settings can start doing some strange things

I notice a lot of GTI's (mostly driven by kids working at mcdonalds and other dead end jobs) Wheel hop quite a bit when changing gears. I hope these cars don't do that, such an annoying sound.

Erm....no, sorry that's not right whatsoever.


Body roll is a function of the suspensions' roll center and the cumulative effect of all the force vectors acting upon the suspension as a result of a certain amount of lateral acceleration. A suspension can be designed to give anywhere between significant body roll, zero body roll, and negative body roll [the latter usually needing active components]. Actual chassis strength does play a role, but it is very marginal. For example, an R53 MINI Cooper body is claimed to be 50,000N/° [just a factoid I remember]. The same car has a front spring rate of 225 Lb/In. It's tough to make direct correlations, but compressing the suspension one inch equates to stressing the chassis just 7% the torque needed to flex the chassis 1 degree.

In this example, no amount of available suspension travel will ever stress the body so it'll flex 1 degree.

Of course, in the real world, there's also anti-roll bars to add to the wheel rate, and people jumping their car off mountain tops or whatever and bottoming out the suspension. In reality, the chassis will get more abuse, but in modern cars with very stiff unibodies and monocoques, chassis flex is a virtual non-issue.

Agree to disagree, everyone on the internet has an opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

I'm open to your technical explanation regarding how chassis flex is a greater factor in vehicle control than suspension articulation geometry.

No need to be ignorant; the definition of body roll isn't about opinion. :) Try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_roll

You'll find that chassis rigidity is not even mentioned (because it's largely irrelevant).

BTW, this is way :offtopic:

I believe any average buyer will cross-shop and compare the FRS with the GTI/GC/MiniS due to the pricing. Only the hardcore car enthusiasts will not think of cross-shopping between them. FRS is a pure sport car based and meant for the track to enjoy. GTI is more of a 'sporty' practical hatch meant for the city road. It is great to dart in and out of traffic with the torque and short body.

I went from a 06 impreza to a GTI and the first thing I noticed was the body roll. It took me 1 month to control the amount of roll felt by adjusting the steering and gearing. Just need to adapt to it.

Right now I'm beating myself over and over :bonk: if I'm ready to leave practicality all behind and jump to a FRS. At heart, I just need a daily driver and I don' track :(

I agree.

:bellyroll: