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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59)
-   -   Master cylinder brace: Grimmspeed vs Perrin (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26937)

lbroskee 01-21-2013 02:40 AM
Master cylinder brace: Grimmspeed vs Perrin
 
which Master cylinder brace is better, perrin or grimmspeed? both are the same price so just curious which is a better bang for your buck?

http://www.perrinperformance.com/ass...K-405BK_06.JPG
http://i45.tinypic.com/35a0qys.jpg

JoeBoxer 01-21-2013 03:02 AM
Best bang for the buck is turn in concepts it's only $60, doesn't have the cool logo but it works just fine.

I do like the Perrin designed one though but can't say for sure it would fit on an auto. Maybe they can confirm for the auto guys?

emutcfut 01-21-2013 03:26 AM
I have a Perrin and the thing is wayyyy overbuilt. It's fairly heavy but is a very nice piece. I do like the red bolt cap on the Grimmspeed though. You can't go wrong either way. Both will get the job done.

OrbitalEllipses 01-21-2013 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 678605)
Best bang for the buck is turn in concepts it's only $60, doesn't have the cool logo but it works just fine.
I came here to say just get the Motive AutoWerks/Turn In Concepts brace.

JoeBoxer 01-21-2013 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 678651)
I came here to say just get the Motive AutoWerks/Turn In Concepts brace.
They did a group buy but very few of us got in on it, they could have been even cheaper.

Wolfking 01-21-2013 05:00 AM
The Perrin looks "engineered!"

BRAWL 01-21-2013 06:02 AM
Got a $60 beatrush brace. Buy the cheapest one you can or the one that suits your engine bay best. Functionally there should be little difference

Got3n 01-21-2013 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 678605)
Best bang for the buck is turn in concepts it's only $60, doesn't have the cool logo but it works just fine.

I do like the Perrin designed one though but can't say for sure it would fit on an auto. Maybe they can confirm for the auto guys?
YOu get yours on yet? you never let me know ^_^

CaptainSlow 01-21-2013 09:57 AM
Honest question...what is the benefit of this part?

OrbitalEllipses 01-21-2013 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 678655)
They did a group buy but very few of us got in on it, they could have been even cheaper.
I mentioned it on NASIOC, but got a warning for doing so here. *Shrug* I tried.

JoeBoxer 01-21-2013 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got3n (Post 678819)
YOu get yours on yet? you never let me know ^_^
My bad, been really busy. I did it just took a little work to get the front bolt started. You need a small 10mm ratcheting wrench to get in there to it.

JoeBoxer 01-21-2013 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSlow (Post 678837)
Honest question...what is the benefit of this part?
It prevents the master cylinder from moving when the firewall flexes under hard braking or something to that effect. I didn't have a problem with pedal feel stock but i guess it's a little better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 678843)
I mentioned it on NASIOC, but got a warning for doing so here. *Shrug* I tried.
It was before they were a vendor here, so many people had already signed up for the Grimmspeed one too.

ZetaVI 01-21-2013 11:40 AM
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQftMi_w7gs"]Grimmspeed Master Cylinder Brace vs. Perrin Master Cylinder Brace for the Scion FRS / Subaru BRZ - YouTube[/ame]

Courtesy of FT86 SpeedFactory.

f0rge 01-21-2013 11:45 AM
i was debating getting one of these, but i'd like to hear from people who have one if they actually notice a difference.

like how hard do you need to push that pedal to actually flex the firewall? in normal driving does it improve anything?

orthojoe 01-21-2013 12:46 PM
I just wonder if these braces will cause any damage to the master cylinder in the long run, particularly if you are tracking the car and are really tough on the brakes....?

JoeBoxer 01-21-2013 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f0rge (Post 678999)
i was debating getting one of these, but i'd like to hear from people who have one if they actually notice a difference.

like how hard do you need to push that pedal to actually flex the firewall? in normal driving does it improve anything?
I haven't noticed anything in normal driving but I made a couple hard stops on the way home a minute ago and it definitely feels better than the last time I made a panic stop. I do have different tires too though but I think it's worth $60, I don't think I would pay $100 for the others though.

OrbitalEllipses 01-21-2013 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f0rge (Post 678999)
i was debating getting one of these, but i'd like to hear from people who have one if they actually notice a difference.

like how hard do you need to push that pedal to actually flex the firewall? in normal driving does it improve anything?
It will make the bottom of the pedal stiffer. You'll want it if you're tracking.

7thgear 01-21-2013 03:03 PM
whichever one resists corrosion the best

but looking at the pics i would go with the GrimmSpeed units because it seems to spread the pressure over a greater area, it would seem that in a very severe case the Perrin could impale the cylinder? I'm no engineer but that's why my gut-physics tell me.

Juvenile 07-06-2013 11:54 PM
No point starting a new thread so, besides the Beatrush brake stopper, has anyone found the Cusco one anywhere? I've seen them fitted with the strut brace but I have also seen them on their own too, mainly Japan... Is the stopper available on it's own?

LeeMaster 07-07-2013 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 679126)
I just wonder if these braces will cause any damage to the master cylinder in the long run, particularly if you are tracking the car and are really tough on the brakes....?
@GrimmSpeed can you chime in on this?

bkblitzed 07-07-2013 04:17 AM
i just got the built in cusco one since i was gonna buy a strut bar anyways.

wparsons 07-07-2013 03:15 PM
I've got a grimspeed one, simply because of the cap that better distributes force against the MC.

Wonderbar 07-07-2013 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeMaster (Post 1049976)
@GrimmSpeed can you chime in on this?
You can't ask a manufacturer... Of course they will give you the answer you want, alway seek 3rd party info.

Efferalgan 08-01-2013 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons (Post 1050656)
I've got a grimspeed one, simply because of the cap that better distributes force against the MC.
Just ordered GrimmSpeed for the exactly same reason. Leaving just a tiny bolt cap to act against the cylinder seems "unfinished" solution for otherwise "overbuilt" Perrin... Olso ordered GS's hood dampers which seem to be the best in the market for our cars.

GrimmSpeed 08-01-2013 05:56 PM
@LeeMaster I just saw this even though I'm nearly a month late. I don't know if anyone ever answered your question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 679126)
I just wonder if these braces will cause any damage to the master cylinder in the long run, particularly if you are tracking the car and are really tough on the brakes....?
I'm not sure if any 3rd party can give you better info than what I am about to give you: We manufacture MCBs for several different chassis, and over the years of the thousands sold, we have not once had a single unit cause damage to a master cylinder. Many of these vehicles are raced, tracked, and beat within an inch of their lives, no problems ever :) None of this is opinion, HOWEVER, I do agree with asking a third party, I just wanted to add that peace of mind. There are some great reviews for the BRZ one specifically on this site, especially in the original development thread.

As for how we feel about the contact interface between the master cylinder and the two different MCBs, I dug up this post from November:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed (Post 534776)
Functionally, they both operate the same way. Our method offers a bit more adjustability for manufacturing tolerances in your vehicle. Additionally, we much prefer to counter the pressure from the master cylinder with the machined cap. This helps distribute the massive forces of the cylinder across the back of the casting, rather than to focus it all on a single point with a bare threaded stud (the end of a bolt isn't flat, so there is a very high stress concentration on a very small amount of surface area without our machined cap or an alternative).

EDIT: I did some quick math for fun if anyone's interested. The surface area of our machined cap is approximately .665in^2, while the surface area of an M10 bolt appears to be approximately .048in^2 (it's not flat, but for the sake of illustrating this, we'll assume that it is). In a panicked stop, the 95th percentile male can typically exert 200-300lbs of pressure to the pedal. Ignoring the mechanical advantage of the pedal and the brake booster, we can calculate the pressure that your master cylinder is exposed to where the cap or bolt react the forces that you apply. Pressure equals force over area. So, the pressure that your master cylinder casting sees with our brace is 300psi or so. If we were to remove the cap and push only with the bolt, that pressure rises to 4082psi or so. That's an increase of around 1300%. If we take into account the fact that the end of the bolt is concave and has a much smaller surface area, you're looking at an increase in pressure of nearly 5000%.

If you've got any questions or need additional help with anything, don't hesitate to call!

Matt Beenen
Engineering
612-379-0000
Again, I apologize I didn't see this thread earlier, but I'm happy that I could answer that for you. Please let me know if there is anything else I can help with!

Chase
Engineering

Vracer111 01-22-2014 11:24 PM
I was thinking of going with the Grimmspeed brace because of the surface interface with the master cylinder end, but really like the look and lighter weight of the Perrin one... in this application aluminum is fine and the preferred material for me. Well I'll be going with neither of those now there is another option that combines both designs into one and costs less as well...from Radium. I figure since I have Radium air-oil separator/catchcan on the passenger side might as well have a Radium master cylinder brace on the drivers side:

http://www.radiumauto.com/Master-Cyl...-BRZ-P372.aspx

kuhlka 01-23-2014 10:33 PM
I have the Perrin brace on my STI and it made a noticeable difference immediately. The brake pedal firmed up a lot. You'll be surprised by the difference. No matter which one you choose, it would be best to have a flat smooth surface mating to the master cylinder and make sure the bolt is adjusted nice and firm against the MC before you tighten down the nuts.

Turdinator 01-24-2014 06:46 AM
@GrimmSpeed any plans for a RHD version?

Captain Snooze 01-24-2014 07:02 AM
@Turdinator
I have a Beatrush one fitted. Seems functional enough. Nice large surface area against the master cylinder. Painted black, blends in nicely in the engine bay.

GrimmSpeed 01-24-2014 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turdinator (Post 1476016)
@GrimmSpeed any plans for a RHD version?
I know that I printed one off for test fit, and mailed it off to one of our distributors in Australia. However, I don't know what happened after that (I hate when that happens). So right now, that's a "Yes and No." Yes we have thought about it, and taken the first steps, but No, we haven't finalized anything. I'll start looking into if it ever got test fit!

Chase
Engineering

OICU812 01-24-2014 05:58 PM
I have the GS one zero complaints here. Radium Engineering now also makes one to, looks nice.

Turdinator 01-24-2014 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed (Post 1477067)
I know that I printed one off for test fit, and mailed it off to one of our distributors in Australia. However, I don't know what happened after that (I hate when that happens). So right now, that's a "Yes and No." Yes we have thought about it, and taken the first steps, but No, we haven't finalized anything. I'll start looking into if it ever got test fit!

Chase
Engineering
Well if you want someone who will test fit and supply feedback let me know :thumbup:

It would match your strut brace I already have.

that_guy 01-25-2014 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 679430)
whichever one resists corrosion the best

but looking at the pics i would go with the GrimmSpeed units because it seems to spread the pressure over a greater area, it would seem that in a very severe case the Perrin could impale the cylinder? I'm no engineer but that's why my gut-physics tell me.
I have the Grimmspeed. It's a nice piece. Very subtle when installed. Looks very factory.

The red "cap" on the end does appear to help spread out the amount of direct surface pressure on the master cylinder. Whether this is needed or not, I don't know but it does help finish it off.

Does it work? No idea. The pedal does seem to be a little more direct but I wont know until summer if it's actually contributing or not. Even then, it still might just be a guess whether it's working or not. Good thing I bought it used ;)

Dezoris 01-25-2014 08:58 PM
1. Radium
1. Perrin
2. GrimmSpeed

GrimmSpeed 01-27-2014 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turdinator (Post 1478020)
Well if you want someone who will test fit and supply feedback let me know :thumbup:

It would match your strut brace I already have.
I found out that simply mirroring the part didn't fit, but as I understand we will still be able to work on a solution for RHD. We'll most likely have the same person test, but if we change our minds we will let you know!

Thanks again, we appreciate it!

Chase
Engineering

DriftEightSix 01-27-2014 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed (Post 1482892)
I found out that simply mirroring the part didn't fit, but as I understand we will still be able to work on a solution for RHD. We'll most likely have the same person test, but if we change our minds we will let you know!

Thanks again, we appreciate it!

Chase
Engineering
Group buy when this is sorted ;)

I'm happy to be the tester :D

PERRIN_Mladen 01-28-2014 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efferalgan (Post 1111588)
Just ordered GrimmSpeed for the exactly same reason. Leaving just a tiny bolt cap to act against the cylinder seems "unfinished" solution for otherwise "overbuilt" Perrin... Olso ordered GS's hood dampers which seem to be the best in the market for our cars.
Super old quote, but I didn't see this until the recent bumps :bonk:

The stainless steel set screw we use, actually bites into the aluminum a bit which creates a more solid connection. This is important to understand, as the MC doesn't just flex straight out from the fire wall, it actually flexes left to right a little bit. We found on the STI's, that the movement left to right is significant enough that having a smooth flat "cap" may still allow for some movement. So our cup point set screw, serves two purposes, which both reduce the movement. Also keep in mind that those parts are very thick and they will not cause damage to the MC.

Efferalgan 01-28-2014 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRIN_Mladen (Post 1486112)
Super old quote, but I didn't see this until the recent bumps :bonk:

The stainless steel set screw we use, actually bites into the aluminum a bit which creates a more solid connection. This is important to understand, as the MC doesn't just flex straight out from the fire wall, it actually flexes left to right a little bit. We found on the STI's, that the movement left to right is significant enough that having a smooth flat "cap" may still allow for some movement. So our cup point set screw, serves two purposes, which both reduce the movement. Also keep in mind that those parts are very thick and they will not cause damage to the MC.
That's very important piece of info, thanks! I think you should add it to the product decription as many people think (and speak about it) that your solution is "under-thought" while in fact it's actually vise-versa as you just explained.

GrimmSpeed 01-29-2014 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftEightSix (Post 1484745)
Group buy when this is sorted ;)

I'm happy to be the tester :D
Good stuff, we'll be in touch!

We'll continue to include the red anodized machined cap. We tested a number of setups and cap designs, along with no cap at all, and found no relative motion between the cap and the master cylinder while in use. With that, the cap essentially acts as an extension of the master cylinder, distributing the forces across the entire back of the casting and protecting your OEM components. If that's not a concern, or if you'd prefer to use just the bolt, removing the cap is always an option. :thumbsup:

Obviously, this differs a bit from Mladen's design methodology and test results, but regardless, I'm sure their braces offer an improvement in pedal feel as well. Either way, it's an awesome upgrade, so pick the one that you're most comfortable with!

If you're interested in following along with our design process, check out this thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11831

Chase
Engineering

JR007 02-27-2014 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1479653)
1. Radium
1. Perrin
2. GrimmSpeed
Do you or anyone else have a review of the Radium mcb?

Thanks!


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