Manual upshift/downshift and smoothness
 

Hey guys
Basially I've only driven manual twice before I got my MT BRZ. Considering I've only had it for 7 days, I am really wondering how to shift REALLY SMOOTH.
I want to achieve the "blinded eye fold passenger assumes your driving a mbenz tranny" type of smooth.

A lot of my friends and peers have been telling me different things and I really need some knowledge to set me straight. Some say that it just takes practice to find the right point to shift, but I think theres always a trick to it that shortcuts everything.

For instance while up shifting, let say 1st to 2nd. Slowly pressing the throttle while letting go of the clutch slowly seems to keep it smooth and prevents the car from jerking (see saw motion). I'm hearing different things from different people, some of my friends say gassing is not necessary while releasing the clutch and its not a good thing to gas while clutching because it will put wear and tear on it. On the other hand some of my colleges say that its fine to clutch and gas for smoothness because its like accelerating from stop. Though, does that mean i can gas a little everytime i upshift one gear to make it smooth? Whats the truth in this?

Vice versa, while down shifting for a turn, which is the proper way?

1) I have friends who downshift when the speedometer hits the right speed. For instance, making a left turn, 5th gear traveling at 66km/hr, starts breaking, make the turn, hitting around 33km/hr after completing the turn, simultaneously shift to 3rd and accelerate off the turn. (Does this gas the clutch too much?)

or

2) Approaching the intersection, shift to neutral, brake, make turn, blip throttle ,shifting to 2nd or 3rd, slowly let go of clutch after the turn and accelerate. (What I feel uncomfortable with in this turn is not being in gear during the turn, feel unsafe)

or

3) 5th gear down shift to 4 by rematch, then rev match to 3, than 2, then make a turn and just accelerate. (waste of gas, longer duration to slow down but always in gear and not jerky)

So any pros here got proper detailed instructions on how to smoothly upshift and proper downshifting? I'm putting a wild guess that people usually double clutch or single clutch at turns?!?!

One last thing, when downshifting, people say nvr shift to 1st gear... but wut if im in a parking lot and im slowing down to 7km/hr... 2nd gear will stall the vehicle... so shift or not shift?
:sigh:

First of all, take one thing at a time.

It sounds like you just need to keep driving. The more you get used to your clutch's catching point, the better you will be at shifting smoothly. It will come with time.

If you really want to practice; you can hold the clutch at the beginning of your catching point. This will move the car very very slowly and it will help you get a feel for where the catching point is. Just be careful not to release while doing this or you will stall.

Be patient and keep trying! Soon enough you will get a feel for it. Reading about it isn't going to turn you into a great driver, it takes practice. There really isn't any trick to it. Once you've got shifting down there are numerous other techniques you can master for everyday driving. But for now just focus on getting better at catching the clutch smoothly.

You're friends are right, gassing it while releasing the clutch at the same time will cause wear and tear on your clutch. The goal is to gas it ONLY when your clutch is at the catching point.

Just practice and have fun! It can get a little frustrating, but the more you do it the better you will be.

Good luck!

BTW my BRZ was my first MT car as well. I may not know everything, but I am able to drive confidently anywhere I go. Just relax and have fun.

I forgot to post some helpful links that I used as well:

http://jalopnik.com/5230172/how-to-d...ten-easy-steps

http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/bu...nsmission.html

I wouldn't try this one until you get better, but for future reference I'll post it here anyway.

http://www.edmunds.com/how-to/heel-a...downshift.html

It's important to anticipate what gear you will need for a turn or corner and change into it before you make that manoeuvre. That way the car is stable and balanced which is what driving this car is all about.
A corner taken in the right gear with some power applied, not a lot, will feel like it's on rails. Don't pick too low a gear because the engine is very happy in the 1000 - 3000rpm range, especially in the lower gears.
2nd is too low for most turns and roundabouts if you're driving normally but 3rd is perfect for 20 - 60kph[1000 - 3000rpm] 12 - 38mph?

You do need to balance the throttle against the clutch changing up but use the minimum throttle until the clutch has fully engaged and then squeeze it down. That way you wont harm the clutch. Just a touch of throttle, engaged, press it down more.
Practice doing the changes as smooth as you can and you will soon enjoy getting it right as much as pushing it a bit.

Hmmm yea i guess im gonna work on the whole clutching n etc.
im just paranoid bout not driving smoothly, feels like crap lol...

Change your transmission oil to a quality oil. Motul 300 comes to mind, shifts are smoother and you no longer have that jerkyness especially from 1st to 2nd.

God I miss learning to drive a manual

Is that why my tranny sticks when I try to shift to second from first?? It feels so notchy!!

What do the dealers put in there?

Most of my improvement happened in my first few months of learning but small improvements/adjustments kept going for 2+ years after. Three years after completely mastering my first manual car (upshift/downshift smoothly at various revs without watching the needle), I would still be jerky in my friends' manual cars and it'd take me a few sessions to get smooth in theirs. Six years after learning, I owned 2 (even 3) manual cars at once and it'd take me a few shifts to re-acquaint myself for perfect smoothness when changing between cars. Nowadays, I can change between my cars and drive smoothly without "recalibrating" myself and even drive unfamiliar cars and become pretty smooth within a few shifts.

If you fully understand how the mechanisms work, then all you really can do is focus on sensitivity of your clutch and throttle modulation and timing the millisecond latency between gear shifts. The secret to perfecting smoothness is fully feeling the timing/spatial interactivity among those 3 inputs, identify the perfect points (at various revs), and commit those to muscle memory. But muscle memory requires repetition and there is no shortcut to repetition. It takes years to perfect on your car then years on top of that to reduce the time it takes to adapt in other cars. It can only come through experience. Unless you are born with talent in ultra-sensitivity, coordination, and instant muscle memory.

This. I know for a fact I let off the clutch too quick between shifts, causing jerkiness. It's ALL about technique and understanding WHERE you need improvement.

Paralysis by analysis - ever hear of it? Don't worry about specific mph and shift points. Just drive the thing, enjoy it and the feel will come to you in time. Focus on taking your time, don't rush your shifts and don't over analyze something that involves finesse. :)

You will do your car a huge favor by changing out the transmission and drivetrain oil. I believe the small metal shavings are the cause of the jerkyness, after you take care of those then technique is what comes next.

Hope this helps

To the OP: It takes time to get it down, that's it.

But you're never going to get CTV-like transmission smoothness out of a manual.

The notchyness of a new car's transmission will somewhat subside as the bushings get a bit worn, but to the person asking about the 2nd to 1st shift: if you're doing it while moving (around 10-15miles an hour) it's normal for a lot of cars for this shift to be "harder" to do.

I usually blip the throttle if I absolutely have to shift down into first gear while moving, otherwise coming to most stops, I let the car rev down while in second then put it in neutral.

I didn't really know how to heel/toe, revmatch, double clutch and all of those things until 1-2 years after I learned how to drive stick. And another 1-2 years of using those certain techniques in my daily drive.

Reading about proper shifting and techniques and putting those things into practice really makes you a better driver, smooth or not.

After 16 years of manual driving everyday, it's like breathing.

What's blipping yhe throttle?

A "blip" is just a stab or short quick push of the throttle to raise RPMs quickly.

In the context I presented you'd want to:

Move the gear selector from 2nd into neutral,

(optional: You may press the brake to slow down a bit if needed)

"Blip" the throttle to rev the engine a bit,

While the revs are high, your foot should now be off the gas

Engage the clutch (revs should still be high, but now falling)

Place the gear (hopefully with less effort) into first.

Timewise all of this takes place around one second.

It is basically called revmatching:

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...m#.UO8Jj2_Afp4

"2) Approaching the intersection, shift to neutral, brake, make turn, blip throttle ,shifting to 2nd or 3rd, slowly let go of clutch after the turn and accelerate. (What I feel uncomfortable with in this turn is not being in gear during the turn, feel unsafe)"

Never take a corner with tranny in neutral or foot on the clutch. You lose the ability to "control" the car by throttle (more gas to exit corner and/or balance the car while exiting).

Also you shouldn't be in 5th gear at 66km/h unless you want maximum fuel economy. 3rd gear to be "in" the powerband or 4th gear max. In 5th you are simply really "out" of the powerband and not ready to react to an obstacle (car cutting you out) by accelerating out of the way. You can feel beeing In the "wrong gear" (meaning too high) when flooring the gas pedal and nothing happens...downshift then.

This engine is happy running between 3-4K RPM in the city. On the highway the tallest gear will of course provide the best fuel economy on the long run.

One last thing, when gear engage, just don't leave your left foot on the clutch (even flirting the pedal). This will wear out the clutch L-T. When you're new to manual tranny you tend to do that and keep that very bad habbit forever. The (left) dead pedal is there for your left foot while not clutching and it keeps you well seated by the same time (pushing on that dead pedal on the floor holds you tight in your seat). If you can't reach it it just means that your seating position is too far back (a very laid back seating position might look cool but is totaly not efficient to control your car properly).

Hope this helps

For the turning thing i do a combination of all. Depends on my mood.

That's double-clutch rev-matching. Synchromesh transmission really eliminate the need for this in most circumstances. You can just push the clutch pedal in, switch from 3-2, THEN stab the throttle and disengage the clutch pedal. At least that's what I do.

I find 3-4K rpm to be the worst rev range, it's the torque dip and I avoid it like the plague.
It's sweet up to 3000rpm and even sweeter after getting over 4000rpm and for me it's one or the other.
I also find it responsive below 3000rpm and more than enough to leave the traffic behind around town most of the time.

according to the jalopnik link, it says that holding the clutch all the way down can eventually cause problems for the clutch. Is this true? I was told that it is ok to have it all the way down or off, as long as youre not riding the clutch. I've also read around and some people say not to have the car in neutral in case you need to accelerate quickly. Which is correct?

Clutch (the friction disk itself) and throw-out bearing are wear items; using them (pushing the pedal) will wear them down.

Being in neutral is a bad idea and is illegal depending on your local statutes, precisely for the reason you stated. Furthermore, decelerating in gear without using the brake pedal uses no fuel whereas coasting in neutral uses fuel.

Just don't hold the clutch down for long periods, say at traffic lights.
It has a release bearing that runs when it's pressed down and altough it's designed to be used, it's not designed to be used for more than short periods.
When it's knackered the gearbox has to come out to replace it.
Don't keep it in neutral at any time while you're on the move except as you are about to stop if you want to.
At the lights, if you just got stopped put it in neutral and let the clutch out. You'll learn to read the other traffic and lights to anticipate getting into gear ready to move off but if you don't it's no big deal. Just a couple of secs to slip it in and move off.

To get the longest life from your clutch you're not going to want to pursue automatic-like smoothness. Accept you drive a manual and drive to fit that platform. It'll be a little jerky at first, but you'll learn it with time. My housemate doesn't pay attention to what I'm doing and lets the changes in forces bob his head forward to mess with me, and that's gone a long way to making me focus more on what's right for the car and less about what my passengers might find most comfortable. If you're trying to be smooth for a date the principles will remain the same but with more clutch slipping, but if you're a gear head you probably want to date gear heads too, otherwise I see unfortunate budget restrictions in your future.

Do you think manuals have to be jumpy?

Sounds like you are trying to justify jerky shifting, its not him its you. Driving a manual can be smoother than an automatic without any additional wear.

I'm not sure my anatomy supports heel-toe... The BRZ is my first stick in almost 10 years but I still can't get h-t down. I'm getting much better at rev matching at least. When I was in manuals as a younger guy I never even tried, so it's still new to me.

The link provided was helpful. I was actually practicing in the lot a few days ago.

You missed the "to mess with me" part. We've lived together on and off for six years, it's just what he does. We also have a made up language, so really take his actions with a deer hunting sized salt-lick. My driving isn't jerky, it's just not automatic smooth. To be fair I typically drive more aggressively with him in the car (call it informed consent), but under normal driving I don't see the bobbing with anyone else.

Ohh Louisiana...

:happy0180:

He's from Mississippi and I'm from Alabama (Georgia before that), both from large cities. It's not formalized, just heavily reliant on tonality and context, and usually around who should get the next beer, whether it should be tossed or handed, and is a bottle opener needed and who should get it/ where it even is.

Was just generally speaking that cruising around town if in the right gear you should be + - in that RPM range...and when cruising you don't really feel the torque dip. All am saying is that 2K RPM is too low to cruise as it'll take forever to get back in the real power band without downshifting.

I have to disagree with you on this.

Yes, there's 'slight' wear on the release bearing while the clutch is in. However this wear is simply the bearing spinning. You normally don't have to remove the gearbox to replace the release bearing. The release bearing is part of the clutch assembly. A friend of mine is a mechanic who has done lots of clutch jobs. He's said you almost never have a release bearing fail before the pressure plate. Even though you normally replace the release bearing while doing a clutch job, it's not because it's worn out. It's just because it's not new, and it's a fairly cheap part, and you're there anyway.

Even if you reduce the wear on the release bearing by using neutral, with the clutch out, you actually increase the wear on the syncros when going back into gear on the green light. They have to slow down the idler shaft to 0 rpm for you to get into gear when you're stopped. Since syncros are much harder to replace than the clutch, and are replaced far less frequently, if at all, I'd rather just do the release bearing whenever the clutch needs doing, and not worry about it. (usually any kind of transmission work involves removing and reinstalling the clutch anyway, so if you wanted to rebuild the trans in order to replace syncros, you might as well do a clutch job too.)

All that being said, if you're 'parking', and waiting, I'd use neutral, and let the clutch out. If I'm just waiting in traffic, or at a red light, I'll always keep it in gear, with the clutch in.

I've had manual transmission vehicles go 15+ years on a clutch / release bearing. And what eventually got me to get rid of it is because someone else hit the vehicle and wrote it off. Release bearing still worked fine. As did the clutch.

To be in the rpm range to get quick power you need 4500rpm and above.
Surely you don't advocate driving at those revs in case you need to suddenly accelerate in the shortest possible time?

I use 6th gear down to 60kph which is about 1600rpm and it's happy to accelerate gently and smoothly from there. If I need more I change down, it's a pleasure, not a chore.
Cruising at 110kph[116kph usually] in 6th gear is about 3000rpm and sweet for torque and economy but if I come up behind another vehicle doing say 95kph I usually slip it into 4th which is 4000rpm and then enjoy some healthy urge as it moves into the power band.
I don't cruise at 116kph in 5th at 4000rpm or 4th at 4900rpm in case I meet that vehicle to save changing gear. I look for excuses to change gear because it's a great box and equally great engine.

It's not that common for a release bearing to fail but when it does the gearbox has to be removed from the engine. I've certainly known of cars where thay have failed but i've never known of a car where the syncro in 1st has failed.
With the engine idling at 750rpm the 1st gear triple? syncros only have to pick up the gearbox from zero to 750rpm. That is a miniscule load on them compared to slipping it into 1st at 30kph without rev matching, although it happens a lot more.

It also saves the clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder from being held under pressure for extended periods.

I'll concede it's not critical but when you have an engineering background these things gain more relevance in your mind, just in case.

if you know how to drive a manual properly,the "throw-out" bearing should last a very long time! basically IF you do NOT 'ride" the clutch,the tranny will literally last forever,unless components are defective,of course,but these components will fail in a relatively short space of time anyway! yes it's not unusual at all for a tranny to last that long, along with the "throw-out" bearing. a "slush" box,on the other hand? well!
good luck with that,and when they fail,you'll take a beating in your pocket book!..just sayin'

Actually I think this is the opposite.

Motor running with the clutch out means the transmission is turning at idle speed, lets say 750 rpm.

Push the clutch in, and engage any gear, and the transmission is now directly linked to the wheels. If you're stopped, this means the transmission gets slowed down to 0.

(Tractor trailers that don't have syncros have a 'clutch brake' to 'brake' the transmission to 0 rpm so that you can actually engage a gear. Without the clutch brake, the transmission in a big truck can take many minutes to slow down on it's own.)

The clutch master cylinder is also something that is sometimes replaced during a clutch job, depending on the mileage on the vehicle.

I'm still sticking to my recommendation of clutch in while waiting in traffic, and neutral while parked. Obviously if there's an accident or something, and they've closed the road, I'd use neutral. But in that situation, I'd be likely to shutdown the car too.

Exactly.

1600 rpm sounds fine for doing 60kmh. The (lower) power required to maintain lower speeds like that the motor can easily provide at lower rpms. Just like if you're cruising around in a parking lot, there's no problem with 900 rpm.

Same thing on the highway. 6th gear in an accord at freeway speeds only turns about 2,500 rpm. If I need to pass someone, I grab a gear. If I really need to pass quickly, I'll grab two gears. Heck, I could even grab three if I wanted the most power.

I see this as one of the joys of driving a manual transmission. Accelerating / passing isn't just mashing the gas. I like being able to throw the clutch in, pop it out of 6th, let the clutch out, and rev it up to 6,000. Clutch back in, and pop it into 3rd. Let the clutch out, and get on it. No, the double clutch probably isn't necessary, but on really big downshifts like that it sure pops into gear nice when you do.

Yes, you're right. I got that wrong!:bonk:

The gearbox idler shaft would be doing 750rpm and then be stopped by the stationary gear trains as the syncros engaged them. Very little momentum to be absorbed by the cones from that shaft.

I noticed the little arrow up suggesting when to change flashing at 57kph in 5th the other day, so the ECU agrees 6th is good to go then too.

I find people travel below the limit and when you pass put their poxy foot down to try to prove a point, might have read it's underpowered? So grabbing 4th or even 3rd is needed sometimes to save face but I haven't been left in the middle of the road yet.

Off topic but interesting I think. I've averaged 6.9L/100km for the first 2000km, calculated at the pump and also exact on the average readout.
Because i'm an economy nut i've tried resetting that L/100km readout for each run since then to see what works. What I have found is that taking the engine up into the 4 - 6000rpm range while accelerating but on 1/3 to 1/2 throttle sounds great, pulls much better than you would think and sips the fuel. I did a 1/2hour trip yesterday on winding country roads with hills and one full throttle 7000rpm run to average 5.8L/100km.

This resumes it pretty well for me either:
"I don't cruise at 116kph in 5th at 4000rpm or 4th at 4900rpm in case I meet that vehicle to save changing gear. I look for excuses to change gear because it's a great box and equally great engine"

I agree with pretty much all you saying Sierra except that for myself I never cruise on at givin gear at less than 2K RPM because of lower oil pressure and lack of torque to "relatively" react fast enough without changing gear.

All good. Cheers :happy0180:
P.S. Just read your prior post and now I understand your type of driving...your an economy freak if I can say it like that so that's why the super low RPM. I avg 10L/100 km (28 mi/g)...enjoying this very pleasant car as much as I can. Sure you are too.

here's what I learned from anime:

get a cup, fill it 60% with water, stick it in the cup holder

try to drive without spilling the water
when you find yourself getting smoother, fill it with more water

Lol Initial D alll the way?