Need For Speed... Really?
 

Hello everybody,

Sorry for creating yet another thread in a short amount of time after my other one.

I'm truly faced with a dilemma.

Truth is that I love to drive fast, just like every other person on this sub-forum. I'm looking at stepping up in modifications for my FR-S, only because my skill level is progressing, and I am very appreciative of this.

I had the goal of stepping myself up to better tires to help me keep more appropriate pace with more Advanced level cars (not drivers, in this case). For the past few months, I was planning... Yet now I've come to a point where I am hesitating on whether or not it's still about speed for me.

I value my time and effort for what I recieve in return more than ever. And myself being faster than the next person has become out of the equation lately. DE events were never about that, though.

See, I've really changed since the time I attended my first DE event about 3 years ago. I really and truly struggled with a higher-powered car, and I didn't want to return to tracking a car for some time after that... Until I realized that I had to face my weaknesses, and to continue to live the passion that I craved after.

So, the point I'm trying very hard to get to is that my heart is split between upgrading to much higher-performing tires, or to buy another forum member's 'Prius tires', which I've been truly impressed and happy with. Happy, not for the lack of grip and performance, but because I have become so damn addicted to how the tires have made me appreciate myself as a driver, as a student... And how capable I can be.

I don't feel the upgrade to better tires as cheating myself. I feel that I'm truly deserving for the speed and grip to be benefited with... I'm no longer a Novice. I'm no longer an Intermediate, I honestly feel. My mind and comfort zone are ready for a higher level of driving, but I don't think that truly has to come along with the desire for speed.

The wear and tear on the OEM Michelin Primacy tires is surprisingly not as bad as I expected, and still half the life of the tire left after so many two-day events. Yes, I'm driving the tires limit, consistently. I'm not abusing the tires, but I'm driving them and letting them work naturally with what Tada-San had probably intended.

It's an awkward situation which will likely not be brought up by many forum members.

You can call me pathetic and that I have lost my mind... But perhaps these so called, 'Prius tires' bring clarity to what this car is about.

I respect that every individual will have their very own definition of driving nirvana, perhaps this is mine?

Open to any advice and thoughts, as always...

Moderators: If I may kindly seek permission to leave this thread in this particular sub-forum because of the track / DE related nature, if you all wouldn't mind.

Much appreciation to all.

Upgrade tires if you feel they are holding you back (ie you have reached the maximum ability of the OEM tires with control, it's easy to pass the maximum ability but holding it at the edge is the harder part) and if you want quicker lap times.

With experience will come the desire for stickier tires. Higher limits present new challenges to face and learn from.

Do 1 more event. Attach GoPro cameras to each fender, behind each front wheel. Are you getting as close to the edges as you can during entry setup, apexing, and track out?

A great benchmark is: Are you able to keep up with the faster Spec Miata drivers? The stock FR-S/BRZ is just a hair slower than a faster SM driver.


While stickier tires will make you faster, it won't improve you as a driver; that is completely up to you.

Fast SM drivers do DEs there? I live in the state of GT3/GT3RS DEs with the occassional other random car thrown in :(

The only SM I've seen at the track lately during a DE (which was at AMP where I've never been, had not-so-great lines, etc) I had no issues getting by so I'm sure he wasn't one of the fast drivers :)

All the time... especially for test & tune and/or breaking in new setups.

I could theoretically do a DE 52 weekends a year here... SoCal™

We're not dominated by one DE group (Chin I believe in Florida?) that requires exorbitant safety equipment. (IMO, a S2k driver who legitimately passes broomstick with the factory equipment should be allowed on track without a rollbar, and thats how SoCal DE is operated)

We take August off in Florida, too hot :(

It's pretty rare to see a SM here at a DE - at least with Chin and PCA.

For DE groups here, Chin is big. I prefer PCA. Slower P-Car guys so I can pass people. Chin is just pointing people by 99% of the time since I can't keep up with GT3s on Hoosiers. Maybe if I ran in Novice I could lol

There are multiple other groups.. NASA, PBOC, SAFE, and at least 2 more whose names I can't remember right now.

Chin's tech is a joke. They don't inspect anything. PCA is a lot more strict, PBOC even more so. NASA.. hmm they might make sure you have a car.. maybe... SAFE is more like old-school Chin. I need to run with them but the date's haven't worked out yet.

My own events are VERY strict on safety, but broomstick test with factory (if it's available) is ok. Some tracks have a rule that roadsters/convertibles require a rollbar though. VIR is one I have some personal experience with requiring that.

Had to edit my reply since you edited your post :)

Holding me back speed wise, then yes, they are... And I feel that I am managing and controlling them at and very close to the tires limit consistently, and perhaps getting a very good understanding of keeping them at that very edge... And then over that edge at times, and then back down a bit... And so forth. Consistently pushing them throughout the entirety of each 25 minute session is how I mean to present myself.

I am struggling more so, and have to push the car harder to keep building upon my speed within my run level. I don't see much issue with struggling, but other drivers in my level can see how I'm losing traction constantly while pushing so hard to keep up with their extreme-performance and R Compound tires.

I'd get kicked out of a POC/PCA event so fast if I went to one here... they teach driving safe, but not fast.

Sounds like the tires are at the edge. My question is, is the car at the edge?

Do you have any datalogging that I can look at?

Ha you are correct. I give people space at DEs though so it doesn't bother me. I ran with them for the first time ever recently so they put me with an instructor. Luckily that instructor races and didn't try to convert me to the PCA "proper" driving style. He's also a BRZ owner and member on here.. Got signed off and realized solo there wasn't much different from the novice group.

How many events have you done? Overall and with the FRS.

I'm a big proponent of not jumping into a sticky tire until you're ready, but it sounds like you might be there. A good extreme summer tire (star specs or etc) would be the next step. At that point though you'll start thinking about at least brake upgrades if you haven't already.

- Andrew

I kind of assumed that's what he meant.

I don't see the need for R comps in DE's anymore. The great summer tires are so good than the cost isn't as easily justified as it was 10 years ago. I don't bother with R comps in DEs and doubt I ever will again.

Is there any room for the Max Performance level tires at the track as a step between the Prius tires and RS3/Starspec/RE11 level? Something like the ExtremeContact DW. Or do they overheat too easily at the track?

Nathan

For an inbetween tire, @SubieNate , look at the Hankook V12. Fairly cheap and they work very well if you dont want to move to such an aggressive tire as the SS/RS3/RE11

I liked Nitto Invos with my 350z and really love the Sumitomo HRTIII's for price and reasonable grip level bang-for-the-buck. Michelin Pilot sports are wonderful if you have the coin.

Eric G

+1 for the hankook v12. It's a nice street tire, inexpensive and works well for light track use too. They do chunk a bit when you run them hard though.

I have not tried the GoPro method, however on the first session of each event, I always tend to dial myself back a notch to get a feel of where and what my tires are touching on and how much of the track I can realistically / safely use. I may likely run two tires (or one tire) partially off the edge to get a better understanding of how much track I can use upon entry setup, apexing, and the track out... That refreshes my mind on every inch I can use of the track. I usually have an introduction to the tracks I run because they specifically are not new to me. It's always a challenge, though.

Well, that's a good question. In the run level which I was in this past weekned. There were 2 Spec Miatas which were at a high level of driving with the car and its driver. One of them I was managing to pass / keep pace with. The other one, I wasn't so successful. The other one probably had a better driver and / or a combination of a very well set-up car. I overheard later that that other driver which I couldn't manage to pass (or keep up with) was the very recent state champion for Spec Miatas. So, it may be safe to say that he was a more capable and experienced driver than me.

I completely and absolutely agree with you... And if there were anyone who would defend this thought, I would be one of the very first in line. That is why I am not in a hurry... Although, as @Dave-ROR mentioned, the tires could be holding me back, possibly... And the learning and improvement will likely still continue to the next level, even with higher-performing tires, perhaps a different kind of learning, as Dave said it best.

This would only apply if I were to be honest with myself, and ask myself if I have taken the absolute most knowledge out of what the OEM tires have to offer.

I feel the tires are at the edge, consistently. I don't have an Instructor with me for the time being, and have been Solo'd off... When I did have an instructor a few events ago (off / on), he was the first individual who pointed out that I was driving the tires complete limit... And also added that he'd love to see me and the car with R Compounds. I may not take him up on the R Compounds idea, but I will happily debate on acquiring tires a notch below that.

Regarding the car being at the very edge: With all do respect, I would be lost in understanding how I would be able to drive the car and its chassis at the limit if the original tires that I am on are possibly restricting me from finding out what this car's limit is at my level / stage of driving. In this case, I don't think I may be driving the actual car's limit... Although I suppose I could safely say that I am driving the car at the limit along with the given tires.

I haven't pushed myself to perform any datalogging... My apology.

I haven't been keeping track anymore, but I took a brief scan of my PayPal payment history... And it looks like very close to 28-30 two-day events (approximately 60 track days and four 25 minute sessions each day), plus an additional 5-6 one-day events (four-five 25 minute sessions each day). I have a minimum of an additional 14-15 two-day events scheduled for the upcoming 2013 year.

With the FR-S: I recently completed my 6th two-day event this past weekend.

I'm all the way with you, Andrew. I have my eyes on the Star Specs for the time being...

I suppose it's worth giving a shot.

That's actually more seat time than me by a good amount :eyebulge:

Give some Star Specs a try; they have good feedback, and transform the car. If you want to try driving "blind", try RS3; they're sticker, but take longer to get up to temp, and are effectively numb in the amount of feedback they give relative to other tires in the category.

:happy0180:

Well, I haven't mentioned the number of sessions I've taken ride alongs with the countless Instructors and Advanced level drivers... Probably just as much as my own seat time, if not a bit more.

Thanks for your input, Mike... I'm considering the Star Specs... Heard great things about them.

Yeah, that's a good amount of seat time. :)

- Andrew

Tirerack has the Z1SS on clearance right now. The Z2 is coming soon. :)

Dare you to TRY THE STICKIER TIRES? If you're aiming for better times, better grip is your friend. Upgrade to anything from a Hoosier to Dunlop.

If you wanna drift keep it stock. Simple.

Hmmm... Wonder why I did not get an email alert from them since I had subscribed to the Wish List for any specials that may pop up on those specific tires... Let me check it out, thanks for the heads-up.

*Edit*

Still the same close-out price since the last couple months or so... $152 per tire / OEM size.

Hmmm... Will sleep on it for now.

Wow I give you credit for having that much experience and still wanting to use the OEM tires! I got bored with them quick, had to slow down too much :)

Any recommendations on DE groups that are good besides PCA? It seems folks dont have the highest opinions of NASA or Chin based on this forum and other forums I've read.

ditto

Well you'll find NASA and SCCA will have a love/hate relationship.

Chin's cons are the membership fee and (for novices) the price. They charge an "instructor" fee of $75 if you need an instructor.

Chin used to be AWESOME. Completely open track day, drive when you want. But that changed many years ago :( Now it's OK. I still like Chin and happy hour is fun (4-5PM open track like the old days). For Solo groups in Chin you basically have to be OK with passing anywhere on track (and/or being passed anywhere on track). It still requires a point-by so I have no issues with it, but I'm also used to wheel to wheel racing so I'm very comfortable being close to other cars on track, others may find it to be a con.

I'm not sure who else you guys have up in ATL. CMP isn't too bad of a drive from there and the Turn 1 events are well run and it's a fun track.

There's SAFE Motorsports but I'm not sure how far north they go either :(

I'm very humbled actually... I appreciate it.

After my first few events 3 years ago with my modified high-power car, I decided to move into lower-powered (and more affordable) new cars, which required little maintenance / stress, so I could focus more on my foundations as a driver. In turn, I never got an opportunity to modify because I got so busy focusing on myself, and how much I wanted to reach that pace I desired to be at. I kept finding areas where I was very weak (I still do, of course). And now, I'm finally getting to the point where I'm fast enough and on a higher run level, and am considering modifying the car within the areas which may need some minor attention.

FYI, I've been a slow learner... Hence the seat time to get up to speed on where I needed to be.

By the way, with an experienced driver, the Prius tires can be great fun... But at the same time, they can be frustrating if you're a driver who has become accustomed to higher speeds on a road course... The problem is that I've never been introduced to driving at those higher speeds which you may be used to from your past. I guess I've become used to driving a slow car very fast (and with little to no modification), but it may not be fast from your own experience level because you may be used to managing higher speeds compared to myself.

Thankfully, I feel that I attend with one of the more efficient DE organizations in my state... I don't know where to point you at, but I hope you run into one where you can really value spending your time at, now and in the future.

Although my experience isn't with a BRZ (still awaiting delivery of mine), I thought I'd throw in my experience with upgrading tires.

Like you, I was very hesitant to move up to R compound tires for quite some time. It took me almost 3 years to finally do it. I held off for the exact same reasons you did. I didn't feel like I was ready, and I needed more experience with car control. My biggest concern was was that supposedly R compound tires give no audible warning and will suddenly break away.

Be warned, if you go R comp, you will never want to go back. When I finally decided to give in and move from NT05/PS2 street compound tires to NT01 R compound tires, it was the most fun I had in a while. Contrary to popular belief on R compounds, NT01s still give good audible feedback and breakaway progressively. The street tires (at least my NT05s and PS2s) were a lot more twitchy and unpredictable than the NT01s. My lap times dropped over 5 seconds at Thunderhill and Laguna Seca with the NT01s. 5 seconds are not just from the tires. They were also from the confidence inspired by the predicable manner in which the NT01s behaved. Most importantly, I had a lot more fun with driving on NT01s. It sounds like you're more than ready to move up. Do it, and you'll have no regrets and will never look back. That's what happened to me.

Out of curiosity, what did you run before/after the NT01 at MRLS, and what mods did you have on your EvoX?

r compounds are the most fun you can have with your clothes on PERIOD...;-)

Robi

+1 on what orthojoe said about the Nitto NT-01's... basically like a street tire on steroids, really similar to the Hankook RS-3 to me, but with more grip. They also ride really smooth as well...better than street tires. Once the tread starts going down they do get pretty noisy (well they are basically turning into 1 continuous surface with just 2 circumferential grooves once you get to the wear bars...) Not much more expensive than Hankook RS-3's either.

I say switch to a set of 215/45-17 Nitto NT-01's for track duty and have a blast... you have plenty of experience and should be ready to progress beyond stock tires with some DOT-R's that give similar feedback but at higher limits. Might want to get something to keep you against the seat better though...you will be pulling more G's in the corners. G's are what make you all warm and fuzzy while on track, especially the first time going from street to DOT-R... which will also make you realize there is a lot of force acting on the wheel studs and you may want to upgrade from the factory ones to feel more comfortable with all the track use your car is seeing, especially if going to DOT-R rubber.

Almost nothing on a car and how it relates to a race track is independent of itself. What I'm trying to say is, the car is a package and when you change 1 thing, it affects the whole package.

If you change from your Primacy's to something like a shaved RA1 or a Hoosier R6 the changes to the "package" will be:

1: Increased cornering forces which will increase wear (or decrease lifespan) on wheel bearings, hubs, ball joints, tie rods and bushings.

2: Faster corner exit speed combined with more grip under braking so now you're braking later and carrying more speed into the braking zone... Much more heat will be generated with all that kinetic energy being converted to heat. This will affect the brakes, of course, but it also puts more heat into the hub and wheel bearing also decreasing lifespan.

I don't think R-Comps are any more fun at a lapping day, period. But, learning a new tire (heck, learning a new anything) is always fun. So go get some R-comps (consider used ones) and go have fun learning a new tire but it is my opinion that if you're not competing then running R-comps is just being unnecessarily hard on your equipment so once you've learned them you'll be able to make that assessment for yourself. Not everyone agrees, as I'm kind of atypical because I'm not a "g-force junky".

R-Comps get the "break away without warning" reputation due to their temperature demands but in reality it's not the case. R-Comps don't function worth a damn unless their hot.. not 120F hot but 170F+ hot... Example: Hoosier R6 (road race compound) does alright from about 120+ but the Hankook C51 is like being on ice until it's over 130F and doesn't really grip until after 160F (target temp is 180-220F).

So R-comps, when they're up to temp are pretty forgiving tires with he exception that they don't make noise (or at least as loud as street tires) and when you do lose grip you're carrying a lot more speed and G's so there's more momentum acting on them.

Another thing to consider about the dynamics of a tire losing grip is the length of the wheel base. The Subion has a good length chassis while my CRX is a death trap.

Here's a vid compilation I made with lots of spinning on R-comp tires. Some FWD drifting some spinning. The footage in the 2nd half of video with me spinning is most due to cold tires and you see how fast and violently they let go... the one where I completely go around just about cost me my car. The uncontrolled lost of traction is either due to cold R-comps or car with a too short of wheelbase that I stupidly keep racing anyway! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l2k...ature=g-crec-u

And this happened 3 corners into the 1st lap of this race with cold Hankook C51's on the rear of the car. Not the race I was hoping to have (lots of $$ in body work ahead). I'm no longer running C51s and next year I will be exclusively running Hoosier R6's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwd...ature=g-crec-u

Also, if you want to get more out of your track time.... Definitely get this before your next trip out:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/pages/solo/index.htm

http://www.sampsonracing.com/v/vspfi...%20SOLO-2T.jpg

I like the AIM timer but dang that's pricey. Can't you accomplish the same thing with Harry's Lap timer (iPhone) or TrackMaster (Android)?

Refer to here to see what mods the Evo X had:
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70895

I have not run the Evo X at MRLS with the NT01s because the car won't pass sound and the brakes overheat there even on street tires.

The 5 second drop at MRLS on NT01s was with my Boxster Spyder. The car is stock with the exception of adjustable lower control arms. Here's a video of the run:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wyo5I9iQKc"]Boxster Spyder @ Laguna Seca 1:45 lap time - YouTube[/ame]

You make a great point here. Yes, increase wear on car components should be considered with moving up to R comps. Some cars are up to the task, and some are not. It will be interesting to see how the BRZ/FRS holds up as we learn more over time. Also, the stock suspension is not tuned for R comps. It is tuned for the primacy tires.

I'm a big fan of the AiM Solo DL. It's been a great help and very fun to use. The software is a bit difficult to figure out, but once you do, you'll realize it's the most powerful one available right now. I make my videos using my AiM solo DL, gopro cameras, adobe premier elements, and trackvision:

(my first time on R comps)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ViTF1ybixY"]Best lap yet at Thunderhill in the Evo X - YouTube[/ame]

I tried HLT, and while on paper it seems like a great value, it doesn't stand up next to the Solo. My biggest issue with HLT was consistency. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The data from HLT is interpolated, so iirc only 1 out of 20 data points is real and the others are 'fake'. I moved up to Solo and never looked back. I'm looking forward to trying it out on my BRZ since the Solo DL is compatible with the BRZ/FRS ECU. When I track my BRZ, it will be totally stock until I learn more about the car.

There should really be 4 categories we're talking about here:
OEM and similar
High Performance Street
gateway drug R compound (RA-1 and similar)
full addiction R compund (Hoosier and similar)

I think the difference between each category is similar in scale.