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-   -   New Article on TTAC about the GT86-- Speaks with Engineer! (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2382)

Buggy51 11-27-2011 02:57 PM

New Article on TTAC about the GT86-- Speaks with Engineer!
 
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...hief-engineer/

Interesting

Quote:

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_01.jpg

Today was the day Toyota’s FT86 was officially revealed. Actually, it will be officially revealed at the Tokyo Motor Show, which will open its doors to the public on December 3. Today, the international media had a sneak preview of the car. Us, and maybe 20,000 people who lined the galleries of the Fuji Raceway where Toyota and Gazoo Racing held its TGRF (Toyota Gazoo Racing Festival). The masses could witness from afar as Akio Toyoda climbed out of an orange sports car, removed his helmet and waved at the adoring crowds.
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_11.jpg

The press corps had a chance to drive the car. That opportunity that was immediately turned into hoonery by a rough and tumble contingent from Australia. One of them drove the car with so much enthusiasm that it spun out , did a few twirls and had a near-miss with an Australian cohort. We immediately had proof that the car provided only the barest necessities in computer control, and that one has to know how to drive, unless a rendition of Swan Lake is desired.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_17.jpg

Before we get to that, the essentials. The name of the car had been the target of endless speculation. Until yesterday evening, Toyota steadfastly referred to the car as nothing else than a “compact real-wheel-drive sports car.”
Some at TTAC had recommended that the car should get a Japanese name. Toyota listens to its customers and complied.
The car will be called “Hachiroku.”
This is Japanese and means 86.
Yes, Toyota simply dropped the “FT”. It also wants to carry on the spirit of the AE86 of lore.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_49.jpg
For me, the most interesting part of today was to sit in a quiet room with Tetsuya Tada, and a handpicked group of journalists. (The man on the right is Hans Greimel of Automotive News.) We could listen to Tada’s comments about the car. We had talked before, in August, but this time, the Chief Engineer of the 86 could be less circumspect and was able to talk openly. He sure did. For starters, I learn that Toyota’s test drivers had given him a very hard time:
“Mr. Toyoda almost continuously participated in the development of this car. Not as President, but as a test driver. Usually, when they say that the president of a company is test driving a prototype car, then it is mostly ceremonial. Mr. Toyoda’s participation was not simply ceremonial. He was a serious test driver and had some pretty tough comments. In some phases of the development. he said: “If that is the best you can do, why not quit now.” One by one, we overcame these problems.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_42.jpg
In the grand scheme of things, Akio Toyoda had been polite. Stronger words came from Hiromu Naruse, Toyota’s chief test driver who found an untimely death by crashing his LFA into a BMW 3series on a rural highway close to the Nürburgring. Tada remembers:
“When Naruse-san was still alive, he participated in the tests many time and gave us some quite harsh comments, like: ‘This is a miserable car. You are doing very poorly.’
We tested this car at the Nürburgring. Naruse-san died very close to the Nürburgring, and each time we testdrove the car later, we made sure to pass by the memorial of Naruse-san. We tried to keep Naruse-san’s spirit alive.”
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_41.jpg
One by one, the challenges thrown up by the test drivers were met. But there were other people, Tada had to contend with.
“We visited with car enthusiasts in Japan, America and Europe. The feedback we received was almost always the same. They said there are a lot of sports cars with high horsepower that are very fast, but these are not the sports cars that they want to have. They want small compact cars that are controllable, that they can tune themselves. However, that kind of sports car is not on the market. Therefore, these sports car enthusiasts are forced to continue to use older cars from a long time ago, because there is no new alterative on the market.”
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_36.jpg
Their requirements clashed with another group: Toyota’s board. The board wanted a car that goes faster than other cars. Tada’s colleagues at other car companies had to contend with the same problem:
“We also went to competitors and asked them: “Why do you focus on fast cars?” The response almost always was: ‘Actually, we really don’t want to develop these kinds of cars. But once we bring a plan to develop that car to our board, the first question the directors of the company would ask is: How much faster is that car compared to what the competition has? How many seconds faster around the Nürburgring? What about the acceleration? These questions always come up because numerical performance is the easiest to understand.
Now how did we get the permission from our board? The only reason was that among the directors, there was a person called Akio Toyoda, who is a car enthusiast himself.”
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_29.jpg
Tada not only had to convince a board that was fixated on numbers. He also had to do something highly risqué: Ditch the Toyota Way of developing cars:
“There is a Toyota standard for designing new cars. This standard was to a large extent ignored. Why did we do this? There are cars that are accepted by a lot of people. Practical cars that are easy to drive and that do not break easily. These are standard Toyota cars. The 86 is not a car like that. We had to change our design approach for this car. We may have to do this again for other cars.
It is impossible to develop a sports car that appeals to everybody. If you try to please everybody, the car would be half-baked for everybody, and not particularly good for anybody. This car is not developed by a committee, or by consensus.”
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_18.jpg
And would you believe that even Toyota’s advertising department did not like the car?
“When we first presented this idea to our advertising people, they were drastically opposed to this idea. They complained that the car doesn’t have a particularly fast time on the circuit, it does not use any new technology. They also could not think of a catchy headline for the catalogue.”
Someone should have a chat with that advertising department.
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_22.jpg
The word of mouth enthusiasm for this car is so strong, maybe it doesn’t need any advertising. Thousands of grassroots racers around the world are looking forward to a car they can tinker with. Tada built it for them:
“To make the car customizable, we did away with computers to the highest extent possible. A lot of the cars on the market today are controlled by computers. People have the feeling that they are driven by the car instead of them driving the car. That makes for a boring experience. That is why we decided to go back to the basics of car making. With the low center of gravity, the driver now is in personal touch with the road again.”
How much will this car cost? This remains a state secret. All Toyota says is that it will be “affordably priced.” Asked what that means, Tada launches into a dangerous discourse, with his press handlers getting visibly nervous:
“30 to 40 years ago, there was an AE86, and the price of this car was 1.5 million yen. At the time, that was the starting salary was for a university graduate. We kept that in mind when we priced the car. In the meantime, there has been a rise in prices, and the starting salaries rose also.”
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_20.jpg
The starting salary of a university graduate in Japan is around 2.5 million yen. In today’s undervalued dollars, this would be around $32,000. We will have to wait until early 2012 when the car is officially released. There will be no pricing announcement at the Auto Show.
All the specs that are available can be downloaded here.
Ah, the test-drive.
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/...cetrack_26.jpg
I drove the same 86 the Aussie hoons pirouetted through a sharp turn. All I did was make the tires chirp. At a test drive, I like to return the car as I found it. It drove very nicely. It does not press you into the bucket seat with jet fighter g-forces. I am told it will do 230 km/h (143 mph) and will go 0-100 km/h (0-62 mph) in 6 seconds.
Would I buy it?
Yes.

ZetaVI 11-27-2011 02:59 PM

thanks for the article

Navi 11-27-2011 03:04 PM

Wow nice!

Also the price part, finally some word about it.

Buggy51 11-27-2011 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navi (Post 80580)
Wow nice!

Also the price part, finally some word about it.

Haha yeah, though call me cheap, but I hope its somewhat reliable >_>

and I seriously hope its not 32k USD. Inverse those numbers plz.

.GENO. 11-27-2011 03:05 PM

All these articles are getting me excited!!

zigzagz94 11-27-2011 03:06 PM

2600lbs and 0-60 in 6 secs isn't bad at all :)

poormans_LFA 11-27-2011 03:07 PM

a couple of interesting excerpts:

Quote:

These questions always come up because numerical performance is the easiest to understand.
it's funny. people think how good a car is equates to how fast it goes from point to point b. speed doesn't count for much in the real, especially the legality of driving at excessive speeds.

Quote:

A lot of the cars on the market today are controlled by computers. People have the feeling that they are driven by the car instead of them driving the car. That makes for a boring experience. That is why we decided to go back to the basics of car making. With the low center of gravity, the driver now is in personal touch with the road again.
my sentiments about all German cars today. I feel like the engineers are into outsmarting themselves and you more than building cars that satisfy the customer. the latter appears to be exactly the approach the guys at Toyota/Subaru took in developing this car.

good article. thanks for sharing.

Jezza_hr 11-27-2011 03:15 PM

Probably the most informative article so far this weekend, thanks very much for posting this. It's upsetting to know we still won't know the price at the announcement though.

iff2mastamatt 11-27-2011 03:16 PM

0-60 6 seconds is great! Lots of speculation lately, just gotta wait 2 more days!

Dark 11-27-2011 03:17 PM

Top speed 143mph, 0-60 in 6 sec. Are you happy now 0-60 guys? ;)
197hp is about enough for this car. We don't really need Turbo.

Buggy51 11-27-2011 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jezza_hr (Post 80600)
Probably the most informative article so far this weekend, thanks very much for posting this. It's upsetting to know we still won't know the price at the announcement though.

Well, technically not the official announcement. Gotta have some tidbit of info at the TMS right? XD

Jezza_hr 11-27-2011 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poormans_LFA (Post 80586)
a couple of interesting excerpts:



it's funny. people think how good a car is equates to how fast it goes from point to point b. speed doesn't count for much in the real, especially the legality of driving at excessive speeds.



my sentiments about all German cars today. I feel like the engineers are into outsmarting themselves and you more than building cars that satisfy the customer. the latter appears to be exactly the approach the guys at Toyota/Subaru took in developing this car.

good article. thanks for sharing.

It's these exact points raised that has given me faith in this car and lets me see it as a worthy successor to the AE86. I've driven several cars over the year (GTR, MX5s, 200SX's etc) But I've only ever owned an AE86, because there's always been something about it that has kept me wanting more and that's in how it drives. Every time I go from place to place, I see every road or country lane ahead of me as a fun little challenge (it sounds childish I know) that I can pit the car against without making it seem stupidly dangerous or overpowered You can keep your foot to the floor and maintain control, it's just fantastic. I'm hoping for this feeling from the GT and can't wait to take it out for a spin to see if it hits the spot.

iff2mastamatt 11-27-2011 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark (Post 80603)
Top speed 143mph, 0-60 in 6 sec. Are you happy now 0-60 guys? ;)
197hp is about enough for this car. We don't really need Turbo.

:word:

0-60 6 seconds
33 mpg
2+2
~$25K

GREAT combo :bow:

Spaceywilly 11-27-2011 03:26 PM

Can't believe I waited all this time just to hear...

Quote:

We will have to wait until early 2012 when the car is officially released. There will be no pricing announcement at the Auto Show.
FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

More waiting... wonderful

tripjammer 11-27-2011 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zigzagz94 (Post 80585)
2600lbs and 0-60 in 6 secs isn't bad at all :)

And it's 0 to 62 in 6 secs...I told y'all this car would be upper 5 secs 0 to 60!

That's fast enough for this car..but the car is too expensive if it is $32k...

SUB-FT86 11-27-2011 03:31 PM

This car will have as much computer aids as other cars on the market. Toyota is talking BS. This car will have ABS and TC just like a Mustang or Genesis Coupe and it can be shut off just like the two cars I mentioned. I think they meant AWD cars with automatic or SCT/DCT trannies.

iff2mastamatt 11-27-2011 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripjammer (Post 80618)
And it's 0 to 62 in 6 secs...I told y'all this car would be upper 5 secs 0 to 60!

That's fast enough for this car..but the car is too expensive if it is $32k...

Not to burst your bubble, but I feel like it's high 6's and low 7's for 0-60. More reviews predicted 7's than 6's, just to throw that out there.

SUB-FT86 11-27-2011 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark (Post 80603)
Top speed 143mph, 0-60 in 6 sec. Are you happy now 0-60 guys? ;)
197hp is about enough for this car. We don't really need Turbo.

The 197hp is not the problem with the power. It's actually terrific for this car with 2600-2700 lbs. The problem most people have is that little thing called torque which is a pathetic 151@6600 rpms. 180-190 ft lbs would've been good enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by tripjammer (Post 80618)
And it's 0 to 62 in 6 secs...I told y'all this car would be upper 5 secs 0 to 60!

That's fast enough for this car..but the car is too expensive if it is $32k...

I bet this car will not hit under 6 seconds 0-60. It will be around 6.3 seconds which is still respectable. If the weight is ''REALLY" 2600 lbs then I can possibly believe the under 6 seconds 0-60 but I bet the weight will be 100-150 lbs heavier.

PuGZoR 11-27-2011 03:51 PM

Quote:

The press corps had a chance to drive the car. That opportunity that was immediately turned into hoonery by a rough and tumble contingent from Australia. One of them drove the car with so much enthusiasm that it spun out , did a few twirls and had a near-miss with an Australian cohort. We immediately had proof that the car provided only the barest necessities in computer control, and that one has to know how to drive, unless a rendition of Swan Lake is desired.
Australia represent! Haha. That's how we do things on our little island.

ichitaka05 11-27-2011 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 80628)
The 197hp is not the problem with the power. It's actually terrific for this car with 2600-2700 lbs. The problem most people have is that little thing called torque which is a pathetic 151@6600 rpms. 180-190 ft lbs would've been good enough

Again, in NA 2l engine which car has 190tq? 150's is s2k tq range. 2l NA engine, to make tq = more $. Are you willing to spent over $26k (prob be close to $30k when you're done w it)

st162celica 11-27-2011 03:58 PM

Trust the Aussies to push it past the limits.

0-60 in the 7's. Think about it. Car doesn't have to have a turbo to be fast. It's light with 200hp. The last gen celica was in the 7's wasn't it.

It will be in the 6's for sure. !

This is going to be a epic car and I can't wait any longer. Take my money now.

Sport-Tech 11-27-2011 04:00 PM

Good article on the reveal but his only comment on his driving experience was "It drove very nicely." Pathetic.

cambo 11-27-2011 04:08 PM

Nice find! Hopefully the price will be around 25k but very encouraging words from toyoda!

Slide 11-27-2011 04:17 PM

This article didn't say it will cost 32k they said jap gard student get 32k first year after grad.

They are saying that this person is who its summed at and that it shoild be leass then 32k

Neutral_Eyes 11-27-2011 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iff2mastamatt (Post 80613)
:word:

0-60 6 seconds
33 mpg
2+2
~$25K

GREAT combo :bow:

I agree, the V6 Mustang is a fantastic car. :D

serialk11r 11-27-2011 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 80628)
The 197hp is not the problem with the power. It's actually terrific for this car with 2600-2700 lbs. The problem most people have is that little thing called torque which is a pathetic 151@6600 rpms. 180-190 ft lbs would've been good enough

You sir are hopeless...if you're so disappointed already maybe you should go find yourself a turbo car instead of whining. From your posts you don't even seem to understand what torque is. Really sorry to be so harsh, but it's getting tiring reading this nonsense about "not enough torque" and "torque to weight ratio" :P

rmagic 11-27-2011 04:32 PM

I am very excited and I love to buy this car for auto x. but so far all I heard from the chief engineer is that it is lower cg, but what about talking about chassis and suspension? I'm just confused. If the are making a car to just be a fun car to drive, not necessarily fast on the track, then why would they be concerned about and design the car that can carry extra track tire on the back? Or to have a spot to put a road cage? Sports cars have to be fun to drive but all the enthusiasts I know want the car to be fast on the track as well.(I am not talking about hp) This car has to at least have the potential to be a decent car to build for the track, and that's where it comes with chassis regality and suspension geometry and performance. I don't know maybe this is the part subaru has to talk about.

there is no way that professionals test drive this car and don't put this car in some sort of category, and as soon as you do that it comparison must come,and as long as you use the word 'racing', it's bound to be compared and Competition.

Dave-ROR 11-27-2011 04:35 PM

Best article so far IMO. Thanks for posting it.

RMagic: It should be a fun track car based on it's specs and the first drives (grain of salt though).

Some people like doing HPDEs with R comps (ok many people) but you may not want to drive 3 hours on them to get to the track, hence the space for tires.

As for the rollcage spot, I'm not even sure that made it to production, but it'll be great for SCCA showroom stock cars, etc.

rmagic 11-27-2011 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 80679)
Best article so far IMO. Thanks for posting it.

RMagic: It should be a fun track car based on it's specs and the first drives (grain of salt though).

Some people like doing HPDEs with R comps (ok many people) but you may not want to drive 3 hours on them to get to the track, hence the space for tires.

As for the rollcage spot, I'm not even sure that made it to production, but it'll be great for SCCA showroom stock cars, etc.

Thanks, I think all the enthusiasts should put their concerns and talk about it. I really hope it will be a good car for the track and you are right, based on the specs it should be, but I really would like to get more and better info from them.

jimmillion 11-27-2011 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S (Post 80654)
Good article on the reveal but his only comment on his driving experience was "It drove very nicely." Pathetic.

imo there's not much more he can say about the driving experience.
Sure he could of dusted off the old dictionary and spurted out some high brow verbiage, but it all equates to the same thing "it drove very nicely"

all I want now at this point from any article is prices, quantities, and dates.

you hear that? PRICES, QUANTITIES, & DATES! :thanks:

Zgrinch 11-27-2011 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMs|a|MILLION (Post 80685)
all I want now at this point from any article is prices, quantities, and dates.

+1
+10,000 to the production number.

Snoopyalien24 11-27-2011 04:52 PM

this is the best review ive read so far period.

Levi 11-27-2011 05:17 PM

People, I think you drank to much Turbo-Diesel and like the kick in the ass that falls after 2.500 RPM.
This is a NA only 2000 cm² engine. A naturally aspirated engine cannot have much more than 100 Nm/l, unless power is much lower than 100 PS/l, but an engine that has less than 100 PS/l does not rev high. This is an affordable car, do not expect 120 Nm/l as in the 570 PS, 540 Nm NA 4.5l V8 in the Ferrari 458 Italia.

Neutral_Eyes 11-27-2011 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levi (Post 80702)
This is a NA only 2000 cm² engine.

No wonder the torque's so bad! :lol:

Zaku 11-27-2011 05:50 PM

so much wait LOL your right it's all about the price, quantity and dates now, and I want to hear this from American SCION and SUBARU because anything from the overseas people will 70% of the time not apply to us unless this is considered global. So If Toyota makes only a 1000 for japan but SCION and Subaru combined get about 13000 a year then I think we can live with that, If this car turns out to be too expensive too little too hard to get then, we might as well stick to the older cars, which they made this car to replace IE S2k, AE86, 240SX, 350Z

suprachica79 11-27-2011 06:09 PM

Love the article, but bummed that we won't be hearing about pricing anytime soon, that's what I have been really waiting for...

ashtray 11-27-2011 06:13 PM

Price and availability are the next hurdles for sure. Low availability will mean steep dealer markups. If Scion doesnt mark them up, then they will sell quickly and could be a year or two wait to get one if production is as limited as suggested. Subaru dealers may tack on $5-10k to the price if they are allowed. When the WRX first came to the states, they were selling for a premium.

If the car stickers for $30k, demand will be lower - though it will still sell.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out - but it sounds like we won't know much more until next year.

Dragonitti 11-27-2011 06:20 PM

I really love the design philosophy behind the build of this car. Very driver inspiring for me.

tripjammer 11-27-2011 06:42 PM

Sure 1000 units a year...and at 30k to 35k loaded they will sell every damn one of them.

They supposedly meet all their goals and I don't see anything in this. At that would make it cost over 30k...so i will stick with my prediction of 24k in the states for the scion version.

spin9k 11-27-2011 08:32 PM

In the specs link... was this already known? Staggered tire sizes and 18" wheels? What happened to 16" and 17" wheels? Staggered has to be due to the lawyers desire for safe understeer (except the Aussies ignored that too lol).

Front 215/40R18

Rear 225/40R18


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