What type of tires would you have on an OEM performance model (TRD/STI)?
 

Jeremy Clarkson says the stock Prius tires are the masterstroke about the GT86. ( jump to 1.19)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCKYCntiaSU"]Toyota GT 86 review - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube[/ame]



Road and Track tested the performance models, and did not seem that impressed with the added grip that the modifications and new tires made. (Michelin tires in the size of 215/40/ZR 18. Probably Pilot Super Sport since they are available in that size and Primacy HP are not)


So, what type of wheels and tires would you like to see on a performance version? Or maybe on the future performance packages?

I would give a crap about performance tires. This car is about fun. And tire noise and emissions should be kept at a minimum while maintaining comfort. A lowered performance model would probably benefit even more not going with performance tires since a stiff sidewall would take away even more comfort.
Im thinking, road tires for the road, and super sticky tires on the track. Like Z1 Star Spec. Or in my case, Toyo R888 to compete in the AutoX class the car would be in. Point is, I would most likely not be happy with the performance tires Toyota/Subaru would give me, so I would rather have some good and fun tires for the road, and buy an extra set of super sticky tires for competition driving.

The only reason I see why a performance version should have sticky tires is to keep up with rivals in comparison tests. So I would like the performance version to have an option with 245/40-17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport on 8 inch wide super light wheels. Toyota/Subaru should give out that car to the journalists when they are doing laptime comparisons.
I would have Primacy HP 215/45-17 on new super lightweight 7-inch wide wheels as the default choice tough.
It would also be nice to see an option with 215/40-18 Michelin Pilot Super Sport at about the same price as the 17-inch package with Super Sport tires.

One thing to keep in mind is that the FR-S has the most aggressive (tail happy) suspension tuning from the factory. The BRZ fits in the middle, and the GT86 is the "safest".

Comparisons between the FR-S and BRZ always seem to find the BRZ is faster because it isn't as ready to hang the tail, and inspires more confidence in high speed tricky corners.

Motor trend did a test where they ran an FR-S on Dunlop Z1's and were almost 2.5 seconds faster:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i1.../frswrxms3.jpg

I can't find the original article, but they also noted that the car had better feel and feedback on the dunlops too.

I thought that GT86 and FR-S would have the same suspension setup, and only the BRZ would be diffrent?

Okay, so lets put Prius tires on the car so that owners can play "drift hero" all around their neighborhood. Terrific.

If you actually want to go fast (without losing grip), you need capable tires. But then I guess people would complain that the car has too much grip for it's level of power. So we've come full circle--put low-grip tires on it so everyone can feel like a drift hero. LOL

Idk. With the low grip tires if you accidentally overcook a turn it is a smooth and somewhat and somewhat predictable tail slide. With grippy tires it seems like the review says it almost more of a snap oversteer. The first option, while it may produce so idiots, seems safer in the end to me. Make performance tires an option, as those smart enough not to **** around would be the majority of those that select that upgrade I think.

As far as I know. FR-S is the most tailhappy. BRZ have most understeer. GT86, not sure but, but all tests seems to say it has less understeer compared to the BRZ. Might be differences around the world?
I have seen some spring rates on this forum saying the GT86 might have more understeer compared to BRZ. BUT we did not know anything about the dampers, nor if the source is 100% reliable. Id rather believe some tests than some springs rates from someone.

Best motoring shows GT86 and having a some "oversteer capacities". While the BRZ just understeered, making it slower. GT86 was the faster car and also the more fun and engaging car to drive.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te7F-SPV8eg"]ç*‘波サーã‚*ットアタックbyä¸*谷明彦 86/BRZ比較 - YouTube[/ame]

Motortrend did a test where BRZ was faster than the FR-S.

Some other tests seem to be back and forth depending on the driver.

I know I would prefer the GT86 without a doubt. And I think that stock GT86 will improve more with performance tires in terms of lap times compared to the stock BRZ. (Less power oversteer at corner exit thanks to more grip, but easier to reach all the tires limits since it has less understeer)
But all this is irrelevant, because the suspension the performance versions will not be the same.
But having more power in a stock GT86/FRS would be win for me. Even with the same tires. And I hope that the GT86 still maintains its handling character in a TRD/performance version.

And the Prius tires, are as far as I know the "performance" prius tires. They have more grip than most econoboxes around here anyway.. But yeah, they are ECO-tires.. Touring tires.
But how little grip difference are there between those and a set of 205 performance tires that sport cars were equipped with back in late 80s early 90s? Probably not much.
Modern performance tires is just another thing to make cars less alive. I don't get people who complain about modern cars being less fun, but than go out and buy performance tires that makes the car handle like its on rails. Only thing you have to to is point it towards the next apex. Jump on the brakes and let ABS to the job. Jump on the accelerator at apex and not think about loosing grip at all.
No wonder why old cars where more fun. You actually had to drive them with more finesse and skill. Working more with the balance when driving on the limit. Under braking, acceleration and cornering.
Modern high performance tires takes away a lot of that in a 200-250hp RWD and balanced car. Atleast in my opinion.

They know that the stock tires were fine for the street but not for the track; that is why they made sure that 4 wheels would fit in the back. I for one am glad that they took route.

I'm all for making performance tires optional. I mean, I think the car should come with summer tires on it, but at least the option would be nice. It's no big deal though because tires are easy and relatively inexpensive to swap out.

That's the other thing too. Most of us have specific performance tires we want. OE performance tires it seems are always mediocre performance and really expensive. But the option would be nice. Personally I'm sticking with the stock ones even with new wheels until I really bump up the power.

Ill make a series of posts based on that and my thoughts around it.

That is the thing. If you want to go fast most people will end up adding performance tires with say 5-15% more grip and on occasions try going 5-20% faster around the corners compared to the non-performance tires.
Lets be real and honest here. How many people visiting this thread buys high performance tires only to drive at the exact same speed as with the Prius tires without ever going faster? They only upgrade to performance tires for the worse comfort, worse fuel consumption and shorter tire life right? And because they want to be safer
Yeah, people might have a slight chance at avoiding crashes better on a public road with performance tires, but with normal safe driving that should not be a concern. Who are really that paranoid that they buy performance tires for safety reasons? I have never meet any.

Personally, I don't see the big fuzz about going 5-15% faster when you look at all the downsides.
-Car would be less engaging to drive (Okay, kinda subjective. Some like driving trains on rails)
-Car would easier feel underpowered (Less driving input and skill would be needed. You can just floor the pedal after apex, and the car would not be that adjustable with the throttle)
-Not as easy to powerslide, if you want to
-Oversteer would be snappier, and not that predictable.
-Accidents would easier happen at higher speeds (if going off in a corner)
-More wear and tear on the most components (brakes, bushings, suspension etc.. due to more cornering grip and higher g-force)
-More tire noise
-Less comfort (harder side wall, and often smaller sidewall)
-Higher fuel consumption (due to higher rolling resistanse)
-Tires that wear out faster (at least most performance tires do)

I easily get that people who are track driving and who use the same tires for both (competition) track driving and normal road use would opt for performance tires. Primacy HP are not competitive in terms of grip, and probably don't cope that well with high temperatures. Performance tires makes full sense!
But for most people, I think its a waste and that they are better of with some normal tires (aka. "low grip" ECO-tires).
Those few (looking at the overall picture of buyers) who are competitively track driving would in most cases buy tires they prefer anyway, or buy tires that are better suited for their class. Those who are track driving just for fun once in a while, could easily just stick with Primacy HP in my opinion.. Or just upgrade the tires for whatever reason they have.

Lets make a scenario
 

Who would you rather meet on the street? The ECO-tires driver, or the performance tires driver?
(point might be a little exaggerated).

ECO-tires scenario:
"Drifter": Some kiddo in a roundabout having some sideways fun exiting a roundabout at 20mph without much effort.
"Grip driver": Some kiddo driving through twisties at 40mph feeling the limits of grip. And who are able to easier push the car to oversteer or understeer below the point where all tires are at max grip. And if overdriven, easier to correct.

OR driver on high performance tires:
Drift: Some kiddo in a roundabout doing sudden wheel maneuvers and hard sudden power-on to loose the grip at 25mph.
GRIP: Some kiddo grip driver with their performance car (TRD, STI, performance package) and performance tires doing 50mph through the twisties, driving on the edge of grip where the loss of grip are more sudden and less predictable.

I know I would prefer being on the road with the "ECO-tires driver".
Personally, I would rather drive more like the "ECO-tires driver" if I was in the mood for it and the conditions where right. I would also have more fun doing it too. But we all know there are people who drive above their limits where there are people nearby. Grippier tires will in most circumstances result in even harder crashes.

Evolution and the need for bigger, faster, grippier and better
 

For those who says, performance tires are for safety (in a 200-250hp car) and the Primacy HP tires have little grip.
Sorry, I don't believe it!
Look back at say the 60s. People could basically drift their RWD cars on wet pavement pretty effortlessly at 15 mph if they wanted. But they drove slower and within the limits.

People now days drive much faster. But basically, most people adjust the speed to the tires (in slippery conditions). Especially drivers who drive spirited adjust the grip to the tires. Most are driving with a safe margin of error of what they think are the limits based on their experiences with grip.
Personally I think the limits have grown above the levels where it should be (talking about dry grip conditions).

Tire grip comparisons and classes are just relative compared to other tires.
If Primacy HP had the grip of Pilot Super Sport. And Pilot Super Sport had say 40% more grip. The typical grip lovers would go for the tires with 40% extra grip and call the other tires for "low grip" tires.. Tires we today consider very grippy.
Its all relative.. "Low grip ECO-tires" today really are not low grip. Just feel the G-force those tires are able to generate. Just see how fatal crashes can be when people loose grip. Its a reason why safety have improved so much. Its just a circle. More grip, more speed, more safety, more weight, more hp.. .... but with the added HP you need more grip again, which gives you more speed, which needs more safety, which adds weight, and than you need more hp again...
In terms of more efficient and safe A to B transportation it makes sense (the safety and grip bit) In terms of driving fun.. It does not. That is basically why the FR-S/GT86/BRZ have received so much praise. Its not about the grip, its about driver feedback, its about being in control, its about making the car do what you want it to do, its about driving on the limits of grip. Its about balance.. Its about fun!
Just drive some older drivers car on the limit. Say E30 M3 on low grip tires and compare to the fun you have in a modern M3 on performance tires driving it on the limits of grip. How much have it really evolved in terms of what matters. FUN, enjoyment, driver excitement? But yet its so much faster on any medium sized/large sized track. And yet it has so much more grip..

I think the Primacy HP have more than enough grip already for the FR-S/86/BRZ
For the record I love grip driving. But just because I like grip driving does not mean I need the maximum of grip that tire technology has brought us to enjoy it.
For me, grip driving is just about utilizing the available grip. That is the fun of grip driving. It can be experienced without having the latest and most grippy tires. And as most readers of my posts here might have understood, I see many benefits of not having the latest and best in terms of maximum grip. Because at the end of the day, its all about fun!
Of course, winning is fun, so in competitions, you need competitive tires.

Thanks for reading... :)
*flamesuit on*

RaceR,

Wow, too many words in a row. I'll just reply by saying this:

The way I see it, the vast majority of FR-S/BRZ drivers probably wouldn't really drive faster on the streets just because they're riding on performance rubber. But for those who will drive faster, the car would be much easier to handle without the driver losing control like he might have on economy tires. Or let me put it another way--- my last few cars have come from the factory with high performance summer tires, but I used to swap them out for winter tires (before I had an SUV to use as a winter car). Well, I'd have to change the way I drive the car when it was on winter rubber....at least when I was driving through the mountains. If I tried to drive the car the same way on those mountain roads, I'd probably be dead by now. My point is simple--performance tires allow a driver to get more out of his car without losing traction. Sure, you can break any tire loose, but that's not the point. Even on a modestly-powered car like the FR-S/BRZ, you'd still be able to drive the car at 8/10ths with the right tires instead of being forced to drive it at 6/10ths because you're on economy tires with low grip.

BTW, I should also mention that I find no fun in drifting. It's just not my thing. I'd much rather push a car to it's traction limit rather than pushing it slightly beyond its limit and drifting the car all over the place.

I chose 'Eco' tires standard with Performance tires optional, not because 'Eco' tires are better for safety or performance (because they aren't, especially in the wet) but because if you really care about performance (and safety) you know what tires you like and have experience with and it's usually not what the manufacturer picks. You will most likely be getting aftermarket wheels anyways because the stock wheels are usually too heavy (like case with the stock FR-S wheels...)

I've tracked my FR-S with 215/45-17 Kumho XS Max performance summer tires on much lighter wheels (15.6 lb 17x8 Kosei K4R's) and it really balances out the car way more than the stock tire/wheel combo does - perfectly neutral on track with very predictable handling at all times. The ride is also better than stock - absorbs bumps/irregularities better while being more responsive. And in the wet max performance summer tires designed with wet handling in mind will always be the best tire option for my climate (sub tropical with lots of rain) as they will cut through standing water best for hydroplane resistance while also giving lots of grip when turning due to softer compound and tread pattern.

For me, the stock Michelins are fine for the car and really suit it, but I just don't like their low speed grip (or lack thereof) or wet performance. The extreme performance tires I have allow for noticeably better low speed grip, are more capable in the wet, and have better ride characteristic - while costing 1/2 of the stock tires... You do pay with a shorter tire life though, but I really don't like my tires to last much more than 1-2 years anyways. I don't drift with my car nor spin the tires, I just use the rear to steer the car keeping wheel input to a minimal. I find the more precise and quick to respond a car is while remaining stable the more I enjoy it...I like the fact you can just use minuscule pressure adjustment of the accelerator pedal to steer the car without visibly moving the pedal at all while keeping the steering wheel just a hair off center in the opposite direction of the turn if you are doing it right...truly a perfectly neutral handling car with the upgraded tires.

A nice inexpensive max performance rain tire (like the Kumho LE sport) is what I do plan on running daily on the FR-S once I finally decide on a set of street wheels for it.

Got a bit carried away. I like the subject. You might be able to tell. :D


If doing the same speeds yes. Of course performance tires would be safer. Say, driving performance tires on 6/10 instead of driving ECO-tires on 8/10.

But if going on the limit on both type of tires I disagree. A not too grippy car with predictable slip is much easier to drive at 10/10 than a more performance dedicated setup with performance tires.

Ill quote the piston heads article. They tested the performace TRD version (prototype, not quite sure about the tires). Basically backs up what I say, and even uses one of the twins as an example.


Totally disagree. (Maybe because your definition of 6/10ths driving is relative to what the car could perform on performance tires?)
All tires can be driven to 10/10ths. ECO tires like the Primacy HP are just easier to drive on that limit than performance tires. People who say otherwise I believe are just not used to squeezing all the grip out of tires. They are probably driving at 8/10ths pushing to 9/10. Saying its the limit. Due to driver error they on occasions gets the rear loose and call it dangerous and that they overstepped the limits.

Anyone who drives on the limits have do deal with oversteer or understeer. (At least if the car is not really underpowered compared to traction/grip) Its not like your a drifter just because you have some oversteer when grip driving.
I would say oversteer should be your friend, understeer should be your enemy. But you don't really want to hang out with any of them. Just balance in the middle. But if you have to choose, you should choose oversteer as your friend. And if he should be your friend, he better not bite.

Usually when people say they don't like oversteer (in a RWD), and are grip drivers but don't oversteer in a street car on street tires (with some power) Than MOST are really not pushing and driving properly at 10/10ths. Those people rarely are among the fastest guys in both dry and wet conditions based on my experience.
I have seen several people who say they are not into oversteer just because they don't master it. That have sadly made the expression "Im a grip driver, I dont do oversteer" to be the worst excuse in the world for saying. "Im only able to push to 9/10ths, otherwise I suck".
Ironically, those drivers have upgraded to the most sticky street tires they can find... So they made something they don't master a little harder and more dangerous. And its often the same guys who needs more power no matter what vehicle they drive.
People might disagree with me, that's fine. But that is my experience.

This is the most extreme video I know of with "oversteer grip driving". Look at his steering wheel compared to how the corners go! I love it!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_1KP24T-A"]Porsche 911 - Flying the Eau Rouge sideways - On the Limit. - YouTube[/ame]

Now that is going 10/10ths, but also above the limits and in an effective way! Old Porsches are something to their own tough. :wub:
But generally, in a RWD road car with road tires. A slight slip angle of oversteer is faster than a slight slip angle of understeer. And way more fun if you are comfortable with it.

What I meant was driving to the car's capability, not the capability of the tires. Yes, I realize that tires are the limiting factor for most cars, but what I'm saying is that I can drive my car at 8/10ths when I'm on my summer rubber and I'd have to tone it down (say, 6/10ths) when I'm on my winter rubber.

Or to put it another way, 10/10ths on summer rubber versus 6/10ths on winter tires is a big difference in speed/performance when compared on the same exact car.

Lets say we had a new Cayman R. First we slapped a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports on it and took it out on some twisty mountain roads. If we could drive the car at 8/10ths (again, yes, the tires are the limiting factor, but I'm assuming that no street tire will allow us to drive that car at 100% of it's capability) because that's all the tires will allow, would you agree that a set of winter tires would force us to drive the car at a level much less than 8/10ths? That's what I'm trying to explain. Sure, we could drive the car to the point that the tires are at 10/10ths, but obviously the car would be going quite a bit faster when driven at the limit of the performance tires as compared to the winter tires.

Couple of things.....first, I was really talking about street driving, not so much as track driving. On public roads, not many people are dumb enough to push their cars to the limit. Secondly, when I mentioned "drift hero", I'm not talking about someone who is right at (or slightly beyond) the traction limits of his car. I'm talking about the guys who are purposefully drifting and don't want to maintain traction on their rear wheels. That's what I meant when I was talking about not being into drifting. At the same time, I've pushed my car beyond it's traction capabilities on many occasions, but not in the way a drifter intentionally does. For me, it's because I was at the ragged edge of grip and I went a bit too far. Sure, oversteer is preferably, especially since I grew up driving muscle cars. I learned early on what it's like to break the rear tires loose and how to control it.

Ironically, I really grew to love RWD-biased AWD vehicles....but it HAS to be RWD biased, otherwise it's not as much fun.

yeah I though that was your point of view.

I think its strange to measure driving at say 10/10ths based on the assumed grip level of a certain type of tire, which is not defined.
Im definitively not used to saying I was driving my winter tires at 3/10ths the day it was icy roads. 2 days after it was just snow, so i managed 5/10ths. And then summer came and I managed 8/10ths. Then i put on track tires and managed 10/10ths. Its just complicated and does not say much when you were really pushing to the limits in all the examples.

Driving at 9/10 should be relative the maximum grip of a tire or the ability for a driver to push to 90% of his ability/capacity under the conditions he was driving at. At least that is how I see it and considered the common way to look at it.
I may be wrong, but never heard of your way of looking at it.

I started of driving RWD cars in snowy conditions without ABS or any electronics. Have mostly driven RWD cars without electronics (mostly with ABS) Lots of sideways fun in slippery conditions.
Nice hard packed snow are my favorite conditions to push RWD cars on. You can get the car to do whatever you want, and steer it quite effortlessly with the throttle. Dry summer conditions with high performance tires in a low/medium powered car is basically the opposite. Putting high performance tires on a medium powered car is like adding stability control that never can be turned off in my opinion. It makes the car more stable and removes drama. It removes the need for what i consider finesse and driver skill.

I was driving on a larger (public) outdoor go-kart track this summer just for fun. I was only used to some smaller indoor tracks. But that track with those karts were not much fun at all. Most of the corners could be done at full throttle. You only had to apply brakes a little 3 times on one lap. There was no finesse, no driver skill was needed. It was just point and steer and mostly full throttle. Never visiting that track again. :p

You have some good examples of AWD vehicles that is rear biased (and have decent corner entry abilities too)? :)

Well, how else would you be able to express or compare the limits? Like I said, the limit is obviously dictated by the tires, but if we're comparing different tires on the same car, then I think it's safe to make a comparison or at least say that you can drive the car at, say, 8/10s on one set of tires but only 6/10ths on another set of tires. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is that you can simply go faster with performance tires than you can with non-performance tires. All I know is that I can drive my car faster/harder when its wearing summer tires than I can when it's wearing winter tires.

Sure, my car. Audi. Its a RWD-biased quattro system. Up to 85% drive force can be sent to the rear. Under normal driving, I believe it's 65% to the rear, but I'd have to look that up to be sure.

I would use laptime or corner speed as a measurement for what a certain tire can do if comparing it against others if that is the goal.
1-10/10ths would describe how hard you push or how much grip you use.

Some cars love to be pushed above 8/10ths, some does not. The speed is not very relevant. Its how cars behave on the limit that counts.

Not a fan.. Too much understeer in general. Altough anything is possible in snowy conditions. Quattro is quite good there.

If going for a modern AWD I would rather go with BMW X-drive, more sporty in my opinion. But not even close to the fun of a RWD.

Again, I'm talking real world...not time trials on tracks, or using radar guns to measure corner speeds. That's why I'm saying that I can drive my car closer to its limits with one set of tires over another. Using ALL of the available grip on each set of tires would result in significantly difference performance out of the car, no?

I don't measure performance in speed. I get your point tough..

Actually, the car tends to oversteer, not understeer. That's what I'd expect in a RWD-biased AWD car. Either way, the car really has an amazing level of grip before it breaks loose. My Audi came with 255/35/19 summer rubber and the sport suspension package, so it has more grip than average.

So you're measuring the performance of the tires, not the car. Is that what you're saying?

When talking about say driving at 8/10ths, yes. Basically
Or how hard the driver is working, which I consider to be about the same.

(In generall my view point of performance is probably different compared to most, more towards handling character)

What car are you driving? Most Audis either understeer, or understeer a lot!

The performance model should have performance tires. Simple.

I would hate to be that guy driving around 25-45 mph around a turn and the back slides out while a cop is behind me. Instant ticket!

But also Jeremy said that you can do this LEGALLY anywhere! He's a entertainer.

My car:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...004/091804.jpg

I'm guessing that you haven't driven a new Audi lately. The newer B8 cars are being built on Audi's MLP (modular longitudinal platform), which mounts the engine behind the front axle centerline instead of hanging it way out in front of it like the older Audi chassis. That means the cars have a decent weight distribution (mine is 53:47) and neutral handling. Combined with RWD-biased quattro, however, the car does tend to oversteer at the limit, especially under power. I've swung the tail out on mine a few times, but it was still controllable in a four-wheel drift kind of way. And like most cars, it is possible to get my car to understeer as well. It all depends on the specific conditions at the time.

Why is this even a debate? Just buy the tires YOU want. The tires offered as a factory a or dealer option are usually overpriced junk anyway.

Hence the debate and poll.
So what tires would you have chosen? Would it not be great if they actually put on the tires you wanted?
I find the Primacy HP to suit the car perfect. Some don't.
I would also be interested in putting performance tires on the car for competition use, and the performance tires I would need for that would never be equipped on the performance version. So I would not be satisfied with a compromise in the middle.

In my case, low resistanse rolling tires would probably save me enough CO2 taxes to afford high performance tires of my taste for the taxes saved! (not kidding!)

And if the car is so successful with the primacy tires, adding only 20-30 "torqueless" hp in combination with increasing grip with both tires and drivetrain (suspension) modifications would not increase the fun. The car would actually feel more underpowered in terms of grip vs hp. It would than be less playful.
The ability to drive the car on and beyond the limits in corners without feeling like a numb heavy boat on rails are the main reason why this car are doing so well in reviews, and as a drivers car. :)

Nope I have not driven any of the newer larger models.. the smaller and more lightweight Audi cars use a crappy AWD system and crappy engineering and have basically set new world record in classic Audi understeer for the 10th time. I have seen enough reviews or the larger models with proper quattro. Yes they have decent weight distribution and a great torque vectoring rear differential and a rear biased powertrain. But they are way to heavy, not driver cars at all, and not "chuckable" and nimble at all. All reviews I have seen say they all push under power. All video reviews I have seen show that. Which is no surprise, because those models are not meant to to be sports cars at all. They are made to be safe and stable on the German autobahn while still having good corner abilities. Just because several of their models have 40:60 power distribution does not make them oversteer when being pushed properly.
I would love to have a ride in your car and be proven otherwise tough. :) But Im way too far away..

I have not driven the more hardcore evo models, but those seem to be the best AWD drivers cars..

Lol.. Its not like this car slides around all over the place.. You either have to provoke it with the electronics turned completely off. Or you have to drive really fast and reach the limits of the tires. And if you had a cop behind doing that, than you would get an instant ticket anyway. ;)

I think people who have bad experiences with low grip tires have had issues doe the the following reasons.
-Driving on crappy tires, not predictable slip
-Older hard rubber tires, not predictable slip
-worn out tires, not predictable slip, especially in wet conditions
-Driving with fwd cars and understeering due to lack of front end grip.

My FWD Cooper S have Michelin Pilot Super sport at the front (bought by me) and some decent max performance summer tires at the rear. Not only does that make me get most of the power and torque down. It makes the car more neutral and balanced. And I can more easily get the car to have lift-off oversteer. A thing I have found easier with higher grip tires on that car. Its all win.

A RWD car like the FR-S/BRZ is the opposite.
You don't have much torque and power down low. So no traction problem in a straight line. You also have an LSD that helps you when cornering hard, no 1-wheel drive. The car is balanced, you can make it do whatever you want when reaching the limits. Oversteer is fun. Being able to balance the car is fun. Driving on the limits is fun. With the power of the engine the tires only enhance those traits.
(Im not saying, low on horsepower)

I don't get why people want an RWD sports car if they don't want to experience oversteer, steer the car with the throttle and just feel the great balance on the limit which are much more obtainable with stock tires.

I mean, there are so many capable, FWD cars out there with more power, more straight line speed, who can do better lap times and who have more grip, more "grip-lover friendly" and are more practical...

Some times I think there are many posers who just like to say they are driving a RWD sports car for the feel of it, but they don't actually experience it at all. And they put on performance tires to get even more away from that experience.

Well, maybe you should before you cast judgment. It's easy to bash something that you're not familiar with, but you wouldn't do that, would you?

Which Audi models are you talking about? The A3? That's the smallest car (at least in the U.S.). The A4 and A5 are both somewhere in the middle, but they both use the newer MLP platform where the engine is behind the front axle centerline. The only "big" Audi is the A8. But here's a newsflash for you: They all use the same basic quattro system, which is the 5th generation system. The 5th gen system uses a Torsen planetary gearset center diff. The only real difference is that some models come with the sport differential, whichs adds torque vectoring to the rear axle. The only car that uses a different quattro system is the new RS5, which has the 6th generation quattro system. It uses a Crown Gear diff, which is supposed to be stronger than the Torsen diff in the 5th gen system.

I've never driven any Audi bigger than my A5, so I can't really say how they feel when driving. I can tell you that my car is absolutely a drivers car and feels much more nimble than it should based on it's weight. Mine is the lightest model with the 2.0 turbo engine. Because of the lightweight engine block, it has better weight distribution and handles (and brakes) better than the V8 S5 or the V6 A5 (which has been discontinued). As far as handling prowess, I'd easily put my A5 up against my old E36 M3.

Yeah, I think you need to take a ride in a new Audi. If not, you'll be basing your opinions on nothing but the opinions of other people. Take a look at this video and tell me if it looks like the RS5 (the fastest version of my car) looks like an understeering pig.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQKADZcQM4c"]Audi RS5 vs BMW M3 video - YouTube[/ame]

I guess since people don't like what you like they are posers. I love the elitist attitudes of guys on here.