What the BRZ/FRS was made for (contributions are welcomed)
 

I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to repost it here to allow other people to add onto it. Everyone who comes on here to complain about the car's price/power/tires should to linked to this thread. :D

Roadtrip is the reason why I wrote this and subsequently created this thread, so I'll start by quoting him.





Sometimes it's not about how fast you get to your destination, it's about having fun on your way. Cars with more HP like the evo, sti, v8 stang are MUCH more fun than the FRS in a straight line, but if you've ever driven the frs on the type of road it's meant for you'll experience a different type of fun than just driving in a straight line.

This car was made in the image of the ae86; it's meant for windy mountain roads. You can't feel how low the car's center of gravity is in a straight line. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to the type of roads this car was meant for. In that case, the other cars you mentioned will by far give you a more exciting drive, if your drive consists of straight roads with occasional turns. This car was meant for touge. Luckily, I live about 45 min away from Palomar mountain, which is by far the closest I've ever been to the touges in Japan. This is what the Palomar road looks like:



http://www.socalvelo.com/maps/palomar-route-large.gif

This car is meant for those tight switch backs. I love driving my friends 400hp evo, having your entire body mashed into the seat from the acceleration is thrilling. But I'll never forget the first time I drove palomar south grade in my frs. I stopped at the restaurant at the top and my hands were shaking like the first time I rode a motorcycle. :thumbup:


Read the following about the AE86 and perhaps you will understand. But until you get this car on the type of road it's meant for, the japanese call it a Touge, you will never understand or experience the joy this type of car can create.

AE86 description:

The rear wheel drive configuration, combined with the AE86's light weight (approximately 2300 lb (950–970 kg) curb weight), balance and relatively powerful (and easy to tune) 4A-GEU engine made it popular among the Japanese hashiriya (street racers in Japanese), many of whom raced in mountain passes (touge in Japanese) where the corners suited the AE86 best, especially on the downhill.

Wiki of Touge

" I wish Toyota could make cars like this again "

"This kind of power is just right for these tires"


Listen to why Tsuchiya think's the 120 hp ae86 is extremely fun to drive.


http://youtu.be/sXgwyh2ckWk?t=54s

View at the top of Palomar
 

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=193 what you get for a view at the top if you follow the road off to the left of the store at the top.

:party0030:

I'll definitely go up there next time

Can someone post the starting and ending points on Google Maps?

History repeats itself everybody. Back then I believe the AE86 competed with more powerful cars but was priced in the same ball park.

Back then it sold for around $11k which is around $25,000 today which is the price of an FR-S. It's competition which included muscle cars with V8s went for around the same. (I JUST saw a receipt of a 1985 Corolla GTS on club4ag)

1984 Camaro V8
1985 Mustang V8
1985 Corolla GT-S original receipt
Inflation Calculator

Anyways it's funny how this idea of the FR-S (and the AE86) being overwhelmingly underpowered was introduced to me in a classic Japanese Anime called Initial D. And it's funny seeing this feud occur in real life! It reminds of that one scene...

[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ryp1ijSG3rI[/ame]

Okay, not everyone can do that in real life, but this scene represents something metaphorically--the people (who are criticizing the FR-S's lack of power compared to other cars at its price) are essentially Keisuke (the driver of the yellow RX-7) because they think that (for the price) the more powerful car will contribute to it being a better value.

If the lack of power is a deal breaker; then it is a deal breaker. I understand that some people LOVE powerful cars and it's obvious why they'd be disappointed with this car.

We have some good twisties over here on the east coast as well. Namely the Tail of the Dragon. I can't wait to take my FR-S on that road.

That gave me a flash back to my anime days :clap: :w00t:

Yes I can.

Roadtrip needs to name the so called cars that do the same thing the 86 does for 25,000.

I already responded with this in the BRZ side:

The FR-S/ BRZ were made to have fun in a car that can be used to drive everyday and get great gas mileage. It is a more than capable platform that once it out lives its service life I can rebuild and turn it into a fun AUTO X and Track car.

The TWINs are worth much more than the SUM of their parts would suggest and to all of those that think that a V6 Mustang or any Korean sports car are in the same league or bracket, YOU are seriously misinformed... Having more HP doesn't make things better. I have had cars that once tuned to higher levels of HP were no longer fun. The FR-S/ BRZ are fun cars at all times and at speeds where you don't need to risk your life or the lives of others.

My .02 cents...

I posted this pic in another section of the site, but I believe it says a lot about what this car was built for...

I also have a late model V6 Mustang, and the FR-S is better on roads like this, hands down. The Mustang pulls like a freight train in the straights with the supercharger, but in the tight twisty stuff, the FR-S is king. Throw in some uneven pavement, and the Mustang is a handful...more like work than fun. The FR-S is a scalpel, the Mustang... a machete. They both get the job done, but in different ways.

I have had the BRZ for 5 days now and it is a fantatic sports car at a great price with a quality build. Nothing in this price range of 25-29K can beat it.

My last autocross with my FRS I was next in raw time to 3 Mustang gt's by point 3 second s (completely different stock) and a BRZ with 245s had second in his class and 2 seconds on me!

Roadtriip needs to learn that there is a difference between a muscle car and a sports car.

I disagree with this. I was actually glad that it was going to be over $25k. Weeds out some of the, "hey, this car looks cool & cheap, let's buy it" crowd. They generally won't appreciate this car for what it is.

Highway 17 between Santa Cruz and Los Gatos in California is why the Frs/BRZ was built!

I think people wouldn't be saying this if they had an opportunity to drive these cars. Most people who are claiming a V6 Mustang or genesis coupe is more fun are basing it off of stats on a spreadsheet. But unfortunately trying to get a test drive (at least in my area) is like trying to test drive a 458 or something. They want deposits down for the car and credit checks etc etc. I don't think this would be much of an issue if scion/subaru had demo cars at some local dealers or held an actual comparison event against the competition somewhere that was open to the public as opposed to automotive journalists only. I was fortunate to get to drive one at the scion drive event, but I felt like they wasted too much time discussing the car, and less time giving us behind the wheel experience. Not to mention the cars had upgraded wheels and tires. If more people had an opportunity to at least get behind the wheel i think there would be more believers.

"To me the BRZ should have been less than $20,000 base price vehicle." - Where I live, the GT 86 is 32800 euro (that's about $41745); fully loaded though. But, go on, complain how your FR-S is too expensive...

But how much is a Yaris there?

Toyota is looking at the aftermarket support for the car, and thinking, "why do we need to develop things for the car? Everyone else is doing it for us, and it doesn't cost us anything."

The car was built to be a base platform. It is a car that is not going to feel big and heavy around town and especially not on track. I remember thinking that the days of small coupes were gone because of all of the safety regulations etc, but this car shows that it can still be done. The car is a blast to drive, and most people who complain about the price or performance have probably never even driven one.

As for competitor for similar price:http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza-wrx/index.html

^But that is hardly the car I was looking for when I bought mine.

The Yaris is starting from 9800 euro, i.e. $12473 (base model); all prices have 24% VAT included. But it's not an imported car.

Back to the GT 86, I only got to drive it once, and in town. It was the auto (first time driving one of those, also), so I had to be careful with my left foot ;)
The car felt amazing from the moment I was inside, before moving a meter; with everything fitting like a glove, and such a low sitting position. A purposely made sports car chassis can't be replaced by some modified hatchback or whatever, and IMHO deserves a small premium.
I'm glad there was none of those winding roads nearby, as right now it's not the best moment for me to buy such a car. Not having circuits nearby (I'm not an adept of street racing) doesn't help, either.

Should have been under 20k?

Hah. Yes, you can have one for that, if you don't mind it missing an engine. I have driven the V6 mustang, and the new GT, and the genesis coupe. The Gen coupe is a joke compared to the twins. I felt like I was captaining a ship. It's a bit heavy and unwieldy, is what I"m trying to say.

The mustang GT is the best muscle bargain in the last 40 years, bar none. Welcome back to the table, Detroit. That said, it has a different purpose. I just got back from a backroad blast in my FR-S, and while I got stuck behind slow traffic I was still able to have lots of fun. If you took the mustang out and did what we can do in the FR-S you would end up sliding ass-first into a guard rail, best case scenario. Worst case is you would get someone killed. It is nowhere near as controllable or predictable as the FR-S and it's a lot of damned work.

If you want the fastest lap time, grab a mustang or a genesis, by all means. Be that man frowning at the track day and obsessing over your expensive tires and every 1/100th of a second, taking your carpet and passenger seat out looking for extra seconds. If you want to be the guy sliding around every turn effortlessly, laughing like a loon and driving his race car home, then get the FR-S.

Really, that's all there is to it. And to me, fun is infinitely more valuable than lap times because nobody pays me to turn laps. I don't need to be the best. I just want to have the most fun and worry the least.

Well said.

This idea, that the Toyota 86 was made for touge driving, is why I've always frozen like a deer in headlights whenever somebody's said to me, "Nice car... is it fast?" My first sports car was a NB Miata, and a cross-section of cars I've owned since includes a Porsche Boxster S, 03 WRX, JCW Mini Cooper S, 96 Mustang Cobra, and C5 Corvette. And with every single one of those cars, I've heard myself stating in my head, "Well, it is fast, but only under X, Y, and Z conditions." I had my C5 Vette before the Z06 came out, and oh yeah in a straight line, that car felt like nothing on earth could catch it... but just didn't feel like it handled corners as well as my Miata. My Cobra felt fast, but even I knew it was an illusion (because it was slower than even the Vette in corners, and the wheels spun too easily, too frequently). The JCW Mini I'd tell people it was fast, but there was always that nagging "...for its class" hanging off the statement in the back of my mind.

My point is, "fast" is a relative term. Hell, most people are shocked nowadays to hear that a modern V-6 Mustang is as fast as the venerable '67 Shelby GT-500's were... all while handling corners better, and having AC, airbags, and nice soundproofing. Doesn't stop people from labeling the elder a fast car, but the newer is often derided as a "chick" car. But neither of them are as quick around an autocross course as a 20 year-old Miata that's been decently prepped, so what does that say? It's all dependent on where you're driving. I know for sure I'd be getting a lot more respect (and enjoyment) out of my FR-S if I lived somewhere like Nikko, Japan, and could drive it down Irohazaka highway... rather than being stuck out here in the desert, where the only decent twisty road around for like 300 miles is in the middle of a closed-loop park, which is always full of bicyclists and hikers. There, I could answer the question with a resounding, "Hell yeah!" instead of shrugging and going, "Yeah... I guess it's fast."

(Off topic bragging: yes, I've driven down Irohazaka on both a motorcycle and in a car, and it... was... AWESOME!!! Would trade vital bits of anatomy for a chance one day to take my FR-S down that road.)

Cartman, no whining. It won't be long before they put a nurburgring clone in there, and even if the scenery is junk nd they call it the brown hell it will still rock.

I've been asked this question about 10 times already in the past 3 months and my answer is always the same: no. :bellyroll:


I then go on to tell them how it's only a 4 cylinder with 160hp to the wheels and it doesn't have a turbo.

The less people that own the car, the rarer my car becomes :thumbup:

My whining shall stop the day they do! LOL... It's frustrating, because Spring Mountain Raceway is a fantastic racetrack... on course to be one of the best in the nation... but it's extremely difficult (and expensive) to get driving time out there. So as far as public roads go, we've got Red Rock Park (too busy; closed at night), Mt. Charleston (too unkept; big rocks always in the road), and a few small drives out by Lake Mead. For somebody who's lived in Colorado, and next to a lake in Missouri that had a wonderful set of roads surrounding it, it's like being in hell. Or rather, like being a JGTC or World Rally fan stuck at a NASCAR track. :bonk:

Agreed, most people dont understand just how much fun this car is to drive. I went from an IS350 to a BRZ and I don't regret it at ALL. Most people think I'm crazy: "why would you downgrade in power and luxury?". I just tell them it's about the thrill of driving. Driving one of these things bring you back to basics. The BRZ makes me ENJOY daily driving again, with the occasional windy road thrown in the mix as well. No other car I have driven has ever done that for me. I actually look forward to my daily commute.

If people could just test drive these things they would understand, but that's practically impossible. I took a leap of faith in buying this car and it was definitely the right choice. Not a single regret.

i drove 80 miles today through windy roads for no reason....

:lol:tell me about it...this car was supposed to save me money on gas too, but now i find myself driving more often than i did before hahaha

I guess the only cars that truly satisfy the "FAST EVERYWHERE" tag would be worth 10 times the 86.

This car was built for highway 74 between Hemet and Palm Desert. The other side the Otega highway is allright just to crowded and not as twisty

Google Coronado Trails Scenic Byway...make sure to zoom in :-)

Nuff said.

LOL. How very true. I traded an '02 Miata in on my FR-S. It had 38,000 miles on it (10 years). My FR-S just turned two months old and has over 3,300 on it. There hasn't been a single day I haven't driven it for nothing more than the smile it puts on my face.

:burnrubber:

I agree, way over priced.
$19,900 is what it should be for sales price.

No center consle, lock on glove box, steering wheel controls, sun roof. etc..

Name a similar sports car that has similar satisfying performance and is new in that price range?

But this is not what I was saying; you're having it cheap, unlike us Europeans - what on Earth are you complaining about?

Too many cars on 17. Try highway 9. I am driving another car to/ from work because no fun to drive manual on straight line with traffic with this car. Instead. every Weekend morning after sunrise, I am taking her out for some mountain driving fun. I like to hear the wheel noise screaming on some tight turns, i like turn down the stereo and listen to the engine boxer rythum up and down between 3-6k. I like to feel the steeling wheel let me point the front closer and closer to the road edge, i also like the feel of the rear end slide out a little on some turns exit like dancing with me.

It is very addective, addective to a point i need a couple dose of mountain drive every week. I thInk I am sick.

one that comes to mind is the porcshe boxer! problem is,
car costs over twice as much,and performs about the same!
germans get every dime for their stuff! they don't give nothin' away!
just sayin!