..... vs. DC2 Integra Type R
 

http://performancedrive.com.au/wp-co...-3-630x381.jpg
vs.
http://www.carfolio.com/images/dbima...20r%20rear.jpg
http://www.xincheping.com/UploadFile...5d56288fbf.jpg
Tale of the Tape
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/5...11103at923.png

FIGHT!

Double wishbone suspension FTW! ITR was also much lighter... on a track like tsukuba, ITR would win I think.

I can haz both.

Couldn't find lolcat pic for it though :)

Here is the full spec sheet.

http://www.itrsport.com/specifications.html

FWD vs. RWD; end of story for me.

i remember reading an article saying that the benchmark for the ft86 was the ITR. a lot of people questioned why, but as soon as toyota/subaru set that benchmark i understood their intent right away; small, light package that is easy to control at the limit.

The ITR is among the top, if not the definitive FWD drivers' car.

I'm surprised how close many of the stats are. It's likely if these were on a track together, the winner would be the better driver. Weight & power are very close. SLA suspension vs. Macstrut/multilink plays a 20LbFt delta in torque and very different required driving styles [FWD vs. RWD].

If the FR-S approaches the overall precision of the ITR, it'll be a winner.

Same. Nothing is more depressing than understeer from a supposedly "great" FWD car on a road course.

RWD or go home... :party0030:

I remember Melvin posted a vid of an AE86 manhandling a Type R.

[u2b]gTeD9_Fa0iQ[/u2b]

Regarding weight:

If they had the same wheel size it would be closer.

Also I used High Spec FT-86 weight due to performance reasons

Low spec: 2662lbs (1210kg)

FT-86 R version is also planned to be lighter.

I think FT-86 is basically a RWD Integra Type R

You've seen an ITR understeer? Mine oversteers on track unless you are on the throttle, I've never experienced understeer in it.

Many drivers wreck ITRs because of the oversteer they like to exihibt.

I love RWD, but I'll take an ITR on track over many RWD cars :)

That's actually my hope. I know a couple of ITR owners that want to add an FR-S/BRZ to their garage (but not to replace their ITR :P ).

on track perhaps, but if you are driving in spirited style on the road we drive on 99% of the time where there is no room for error, cars like the ITR or the mini cooper will outrun lots of capable sports cars.

The two things that are going to make FRS a lot of fun to drive, is A) the high reving engine that you can orchestrate music with MN6. B) the high compression (12.5) will make this car a crisp car.

This car won't be about TQ monster or straight line, but an awesome car for twisters and having fun on road course like S-2000.

I won't be surprise to see Turbo kits out within six months putting over down 300 RWHP with 5lbs of boost.

Let's not forget that this is a pretty heavily modified NA 4age with ~175hp, however Tsuchiya's 86 is a decent amount of lbs lighter.

the itr doesnt weigh that much. its also a pretty extreme car despite being fwd. actually one of the most fun cars ive ever driven.

This topic reminded me of that kid on a integra who showed up on our touge run showing off his fwd skill going down hill, we let him go on the second pass & we hear this long tire screech well here is a pics

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...album_pic0.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...album_pic3.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...album_pic4.jpg

I got to play with a ITR on the track once in my first Impreza that only had ~120hp. I could outrun him on the corners easily, but he had 100+hp on me (intake/full exhaust/etc.) so thats about as far as that story goes, LOL!

However, If the Toyobaru is anything like a MX-5 in terms of handling, it will easily outrun a stock Type-R. The power/weight is pretty much dead even, but the weight on the FRS/BRZ is MUCH lower and the RWD will let you get on the gas a bit sooner than the Type-R and get out of the corners quicker.

926kg vs. 1056kg, so there's no surprise here!

exactly

With drivetrain losses being less in a fwd car, I'd say both are fairly evenly matched. Honda's R cars.... most of their sporty cars in fact, are tuned to oversteer. It'd likely come down to driver ability on anything but a straight road. I know everyone likes to bash Honda because of the whole stigma to them, but guess what? As awesome a car as the FR-S is going to be, it's likely gonna fall victim to the same mess of ricers.

Driver makes a huge difference. I've passed many faster cars in mine (gt3s, sti, evos, etc) with my basically stock car so that's not really evidence of anything :)

I'm compare autox times in (harder to get both cars to sebring to test there) both once I have an frs/brz. I'd guess if subaru hits the specs posted that they'll be very very close to each other.

i dont think the frs is going to be faster or any where near as sporty as the itr. that car is hundreds of pounds lighter than the frs and i dont think the drivetrain is going to be as race oriented either.

This was one was at the track... right! (pssst no street racing) ;) :bellyroll:

Both start off the line side by side so power is a good match up and as mentioned, the Type in OEM form is a good piece but has some upgrades too (listen to the idle).

True that the AE86 is lighter, by like 300 lbs but the advantage is due those better drive. It's easier to push rather then to pull. Look at 2:45 at the double apex and how much time and drive the Type is losing and then to get on the gas so late.

Here is another example with a Civic Type R! CTR, has a much better jump but the exit drive is what kills it b/c of the oversteer.

[u2b]omqFJcrFnHQ[/u2b]

+1 esp with the steady flow of newbs posting up new threads about the same shit w/out even searching.

You can't compare modified cars, well you can but it's ALWAYS a pointless exercise. You can make a Yugo destroy an ITR, a CTR, a FRS and every AE86 in existance if you want to put enough money into it.

His line is all f'd up during that set of corners, early apex, wrong side of the track, and then bounces over the curbing..

Let's stick to comparing cars stock vs stock.

That's Defense by blocking his line or breaking his concentration! :bellyroll:

TBH, even in stock trim a FWD vs RWD comparo is rhetorical...

I think the ITR is the best FWD drivers car out there but I am really hoping the FRS is a ITR but RWD which I think will give it a more sporty feel and more fun due to rwd

Honda gets a bad name due to the scene but their cars are really well made and designed and anything with a Type R is on a entirely different level compared to its regular counterpart

yes its a track at night lol but thats like 7yrs ago I dont do it anymore

only thing I see wrong with a fwd is when elevation change like down hill & off camber turns a fwd will understeer but got to admire how well build a ITR, I remember back then when honda stated that they will bring the ITR here in US soil on limited number & it will be under the acura name and as i remember a lot of honda heads rolled and at the end acura Type-R was a success actually sold out half before it hit the showroom. this reminds you of anything like what going on with the scion FRS right now.

not any more than rwd vs rwd

that has next to nothing to do with what wheels are driving the car. the only time a fwd will understeer where a rwd wont is under acceleration

Im guessing you never been to a track before

I'll give you a video sample, horse thief mile has an infamous elevation drop listen to what KT says about the hasport EP3 civic, I driven my ae86 on this track few times and still I cant fully get hold of the left right drop.
http://youtu.be/_EoiRW1hB-4

ive been on a track before. that track even. i think you kinda proved my point by bringing up the difficulty you have with your ae86. showing a case where a fwd has touble in a particular corner does not speak to the fact that it is because of the fwd or that it is not the case in rwd cars.

No i didnt prove your Point when i say "cant get Hold Of the left and right drop" im not talking about my car was understeering or over steering its my confidence and comitment on that turn, You say "the only time a fwd will understeer where a rwd wont is under acceleration" watch the video again he was going down hill turning making a lot of understeer.

again, missing the point. im not saying a fwd car wont understeer. what im saying is that things like that will happen to rwd cars as well. the problem isnt inherent to fwd and fwd alone

I've driven FWD and RWD on the street, autocross and the track. I've experienced understeer in both. He was correct but it's probably better to add the word "properly setup" in front of FWD. A FWD economy car setup for massive understeer due to engineers making the design as safe as possible for random bad drivers driving the car will understeer more than a properly setup FWD car. The same is true for a RWD car and using more throttle in any situation where you want to break the laws of physics (such as the example below) will make the problem worse in BOTH FWD and RWD. If you do get enough power in RWD to get the car to rotate after trying to break the laws of physics you'll just have all four tires sliding instead of the front two.

If you take a corner where the maximum entry speed is say 50mph in both a FWD and RWD car at 70mph in RWD or FWD, you are going to exceed the maximum traction available from the front tires, and the car will understeer.

So yes, the ONLY time a properly setup and driven FWD car will understeer where a RWD car won't is under acceleration. It's just takes a different approach to correctly setup a FWD car to eliminate the understeer (assuming the car is properly driven, as again, improperly driven cars will ALL understeer regardless of which and how many wheels are putting the power to the ground).

i once witnessed a new lotus elise understeer like you wouldn't believe at my local autocross. the guy had no idea how to drive his car, so he mashed the gas and made it understeer everywhere. anything can understeer.

I didnt say only fwd understeer offcourse all drivetrain fwd, rwd & awd can understeer, my point was fwd are more prone to understeer on a downhill And off camber turn read my post again.

The problem with FWD is recovering from understeer, not to mention inability to have more than X amount of usable power.

I could have told you that Integras suck at offroading! :bellyroll:

I remember when I saw the '97 ITR in Championship white for 27K @ Ball Honda, I thought to myself, "that is one overpriced Integra!" :bellyroll:

True, too many different variables that can potentially skew the outcome; hp, weight, wheelbase etc.

i wish i could drive like Keiichi. :cry: