Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB

Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   BRZ First-Gen (2012+) — General Topics (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   Subaru BRZ Prototype First Drive Review: "Off the Chart" (Motor Trend) (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2111)

Hachiroku 11-01-2011 11:14 AM

Subaru BRZ Prototype First Drive Review: "Off the Chart" (Motor Trend)
 
1 Attachment(s)
First Drive: 2013 Subaru BRZ Prototype

Off the Chart: Subaru Nails it With a Nimble, Intriguing Sports Car

From the December, 2011 issue of Motor Trend
By Angus MacKenzie

Every so often in this business, you drive a car that lets you know in the first hundred yards or so that it's special -- that it's somehow greater than the sum of the numbers on its spec chart. The new Subaru BRZ is one of those cars. It's not the fastest, the most powerful, nor even the sexiest two-door coupe in the business. But if you love driving, you're going to love this Subaru.

The Subaru BRZ is the result of one of the auto industry's oddest joint ventures since Alfa Romeo and Nissan hooked up in the 1980s to produce the ARNA, a car that spectacularly combined the worst features of both: It had Alfa Romeo's suspect reliability and Nissan's boring styling and sloppy handling. This time, though, everyone looks like a winner. Subaru gets a great sports car it couldn't afford to build, and Toyota gets a great sports car, to be badged as a Scion here in the United States, that it couldn't find room to build.

Toyota did the planning and design. Subaru did the engineering, and will build both versions at its Gunma plant in Japan. Both cars will initially be identical, apart from front and rear bumper fascias, badging, and detail equipment levels. We haven't sat in the Scion yet, but we've driven the BRZ, albeit a heavily camouflaged prototype. First impressions are good. Very good.

The key to the BRZ's appeal is the unique hardware under its relatively conventional skin. This is the world's only front-engine, rear-drive sports car powered by a boxer engine. The Subaru 2.0-liter four is an all-new engine with a different block from that used in the 2012 Impreza, and features Toyota-sourced direct injection. It gets a unique FA designation within the Subaru engine family (the closely related 2012 Impreza engine is known as the FB, while the 2011 Impreza is the EJ), and though Subaru engineers were tight-lipped about the engine's output, they didn't disagree with our guess of about 200 hp and 170 lb-ft. The engine drives the rear wheels through a choice of two Aisin six-speed transmissions, one a manual, the other a conventional planetary automatic with manual actuation via steering wheel-mounted paddles. The transmission is the same one used in the Lexus IS 350, among others. Front suspension is MacPherson strut, while the rear gets a complex multilink setup. Brakes are disc all around.

Keeping the center of gravity as low as possible -- always a good thing for a sports car -- was one of the BRZ's key design goals, and Subaru's engineers have made the most of the flat-four engine's obvious advantage in this area. Compared with the 2012 Impreza's engine, the BRZ's boxer sits almost 4.8 inches lower and just over 8 inches farther back in the chassis. What that means is this: The top of the engine is roughly knee height, and the center line of the front axle is aligned with the bore center of the rear pair of cylinders.

When you slide in behind the wheel it's apparent just how low the cowl height is, even though you're sitting low in the car. Once on the road, the moment you pull the steering wheel off-center you notice how rapidly and accurately the BRZ responds to driver inputs. The weight distribution is not quite 50/50; Subaru engineers will only admit that less than 60 percent of the car's mass is over the front axle, and the chassis has been set up for mild understeer. But there's no mistaking the agility borne of low mass, slung low.

The ride is firm, but not harsh. Tellingly, the BRZ was developed on 16- and 17-inch wheels, defying the fashionable trend toward factory-fitted dubs rimmed with rubber-band-thin tires. The benefit of smaller wheels, of course, is reduced unsprung mass, and therefore better, more precise wheel control. Our tester rolled on 17s fitted with 215/45 tires that delivered good grip and gave plenty of notice approaching the limits of adhesion.

The BRZ has the same sweet-natured nimbleness as a Mazda Miata or a Porsche Boxster. That sensation is helped by the fact that, like the Miata and the original Boxster, the BRZ's engine simply cannot outdrive the chassis. It only takes a few miles along your favorite canyon road to start wishing you had 100 more horses to play with. The car stays flat through the turns, and when pushed very hard it will oversteer, but the onset is smooth and progressive. The low mass--Subaru says production cars will weigh a feathery 2500 pounds--means you can brake later for turns, carry lots of speed through them, and still nail apexes like a sharpshooter. The BRZ rewards neatness: Get it right and we bet you can hang with the more-powerful AWD WRX through the twisties.

The 2.0-liter boxer delivers healthy mid-range punch, though a little more top-end bite would be welcome. The tach is redlined at 7400 rpm, but there's little point hanging on much past 7000 as the power delivery goes flat. The engine idles quietly, but develops a pleasing muted throb, like an STI wrapped in cotton wool, when you get active with the gas pedal. Our prototype was fitted with the automatic transmission. It felt crisp and clean in regular driving, and responsive in manual mode, matching revs on the downshifts when you fanned the left-hand paddle.

The BRZ -- really, could Subaru have come up with a less evocative name for a sport coupe? -- is on some levels the most conventional car Japan's quirkiest automaker has ever built. But it opens up some intriguing possibilities for the company, especially as Subaru and Toyota are free to develop the BRZ hardware any way they like from here on in. Subaru engineers quietly concede there's more power to come from the boxer four, though they won't confirm whether a turbo is in the works. They admit the BRZ structure has been engineered from the get-go to allow for a convertible version, so you can bet we'll see a softtop model within the next few years. And, most intriguing of all, they say the platform is flexible enough to allow for a significant wheelbase stretch. A BRZ-based four-door sport sedan? Now that's an interesting idea...

How the BRZ came to be

The teaming up of Toyota and Subaru is intriguing, but not unprecedented. Back in 2008, both shared a desire to brighten their somewhat dim sports car portfolios. Toyota would take the lead in planning, designing, and bankrolling the new two-door, dubbed AS1, while Subaru offered its proven high-performance engineering and production capabilities. The companies would split sales and marketing duties.

Automotive history buffs will enjoy learning the BRZ isn't Subaru's first rear-drive vehicle. That title belongs to the 1953-'54 Fuji Heavy Industries Prototype 1 sedan, later known as the Subaru 1500. P-1 employed the first Japanese-made monocoque body and paved the way for brand icons such as the Subaru 360 and 1000. - Nate Martinez

Great Expectations

Once the Toyota/Subaru deal was sealed, engineers from both automakers made sure to agree on basic expectations. There weren't many, but each was critical in crafting the coupe you see here.

First, it had to be lightweight and fuel-efficient. Second, handling prowess, rather than all-out speed and horsepower, needed to be emphasized, with a low center of gravity. Third, there had to be enough room for four passengers and luggage space for a pair of golf bags.

Engineering a mid-engine layout would negate the 2+2 seating requirement, while an AWD system would add weight and reduce fuel economy. A twin-clutch gearbox would also add unwanted mass, plus increase cost. According to Subaru's engineers, a front-engine/rear-drive configuration with a boxer engine and a traditional gearbox duo was "ideal for [the BRZ's] vision."

Engineers were tight-lipped about exact production numbers, but they nodded in agreement when we coughed up a 3000-unit-per-year guess. That would put the BRZ in current WRX STI production territory, making it a low-volume niche car. - Nate Martinez

Attachment 2449

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...8&d=1320156579

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...2&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...3&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...4&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...5&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...6&d=1320156533

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...7&d=1320156533

zigzagz94 11-01-2011 11:18 AM

2500lbs? wow

phenoyz 11-01-2011 11:27 AM

hmmm.....lets see....cant wait any longer

ForReal-Someday 11-01-2011 11:43 AM

What's the going rate for a kidney? I can do my own personal weight reduction and maybe pay for most of this car!:bellyroll:

no_name 11-01-2011 11:45 AM

Every time I read one of these reviews I start smiling.

If their fuel econ estimate is correct, I'm stoked. That's the same or better than my current car, which I tend to drive the piss out of and still get at or better than the 27mpg combined EPA rating out of it. And the BRZ has DOUBLE the horse power! I love modern engine tech!!!

dominican 11-01-2011 11:46 AM

I dig it, but the fact that more power is coming will make me wait some more time before I pull the trigger. I want my next car to last 10 years with me, and I won't be too happy if there is a more powerful version I could have had. I do like the way this looks though. I've said it before, but I prefer the front from the FR-S and the rear of the BRZ.

blur 11-01-2011 11:53 AM

Are those renders real?

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 11:54 AM

I don't buy the weight. I hope for the price though!

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blur (Post 69446)
Are those renders real?

I think they are from Subaru if that's what you mean by real...

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominican (Post 69442)
I dig it, but the fact that more power is coming will make me wait some more time before I pull the trigger. I want my next car to last 10 years with me, and I won't be too happy if there is a more powerful version I could have had. I do like the way this looks though. I've said it before, but I prefer the front from the FR-S and the rear of the BRZ.

Eh if a truely better version comes in a few years I'll take a loss and sell the first one to get that one.

rafterman 11-01-2011 12:00 PM

The most exciting/ intriguing part of that review is that the companies are "free to develop the BRZ hardware any way they like from here on in." If that's the case, the twins might end up in significantly places after a couple of cycles of independent development...

zigzagz94 11-01-2011 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69451)
Eh if a truely better version comes in a few years I'll take a loss and sell the first one to get that one.

:word:

There's always going to be something slightly better coming out in a few years. You will be waiting forever.

Just buy and enjoy the BRZ/FR-S and then if a super-improved version comes out and you just have to get it, then take the hit and trade up or pay off the original and get the new one.

PAImportTuner 11-01-2011 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69448)
I don't buy the weight. I hope for the price though!

The weight is very possible depending on the price. Not uncommon with STI is forged aluminum wheels, sport buckets, aluminum beams, bodyparts, brakes and suspension parts will drastically reduce weight. You can easily save 200+lbs.

NumbersGuy 11-01-2011 12:16 PM

It says the length is 148.8? That can't be right!

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner (Post 69476)
The weight is very possible depending on the price. Not uncommon with STI is forged aluminum wheels, sport buckets, aluminum beams, bodyparts, brakes and suspension parts will drastically reduce weight. You can easily save 200+lbs.

This is for the prototype of the production car, which Toyota has already stated the JDM weight for it. It will NOT become lighter coming to the US and since the Subaru car is supposed to be mechanically and body wise (save for bumpers, interior treatments and badging) to the Toyota, then no, it's not going to lose 200lbs in comparison.

This review is not an STI, and I'm not sure an STI has ever weighed less than the WRX? The current models are ~170lbs HEAVIER.

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumbersGuy (Post 69478)
It says the lenght is 148.8? That can't be right!

No, like all of these reviews, ignore all of the specs.

zeggie 11-01-2011 12:20 PM

Happy with all the information comming out,2500lbs seems too good to be true!!!!

ft86Fan 11-01-2011 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69451)
Eh if a truely better version comes in a few years I'll take a loss and sell the first one to get that one.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I've been waiting long enough for this car already. I want to buy it when it comes out and then get a better version when it comes out a few years down the road. At least I can switch all the parts to the new one so I don't have to hold off on the mods now. Thats what I did when I traded in my Elise for my Exige.

Nostalgia1987 11-01-2011 12:24 PM

A full one second off to 0-60mph compare to the Toyota varient stats. The BRZ would have to be producing over 160kw compared to the Toyota's 147kw to achieve the one second drop in acceleration.

nate89 11-01-2011 12:25 PM

I like the shape of these taillights better than the toyota, but I hate how the inside lamps look like they came from a camaro.

NumbersGuy 11-01-2011 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69480)
No, like all of these reviews, ignore all of the specs.

Ok! Thank goodness! At 6'2, I would not have been able to fit one leg in that car!

spin9k 11-01-2011 12:28 PM

^ here's hoping it's 2500lbs (MX-5 @ 2469). As you say PAI they will keep the weight down. W/the FT-86 using inexpensive steel pretty much everywhere, saving you mention could mean Subaru is aiming for the performance bullseye, not just 'good enough' at a cheap price. My kinda thinking..

Do Boy 11-01-2011 12:41 PM

Guess I'm getting the BRZ over the FR-S

PAImportTuner 11-01-2011 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69479)
This is for the prototype of the production car, which Toyota has already stated the JDM weight for it. It will NOT become lighter coming to the US and since the Subaru car is supposed to be mechanically and body wise (save for bumpers, interior treatments and badging) to the Toyota, then no, it's not going to lose 200lbs in comparison.

This review is not an STI, and I'm not sure an STI has ever weighed less than the WRX? The current models are ~170lbs HEAVIER.

Out of all the members on here Dave I thought you would understand. Anyways forget Toyota for now, this is Subaru, Subaru with no leash and an estimated 31k USD for the prized STI variant. STI variant not the new gen AWD WRX or STI which is gunning for ~3100lbs.

As said you can drop over 200++# easily. The standard FRS/BRZ will not have factory wheel setup that will reduce 100# alone.

iff2mastamatt 11-01-2011 01:16 PM

That render looks amazing! All of these speculations don't really tell me that any of the reviewers have any solid proof with the actual specs. Motortrend says one thing, car and driver another.

OldSkoolToys 11-01-2011 01:18 PM

$31k for what though?

I'll take the base Scion model for ~$8k less and do my own work.

PAImportTuner 11-01-2011 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do Boy (Post 69501)
Guess I'm getting the BRZ over the FR-S

You mean BRZ STI

The FRS/BRZ will be very similar, depending on the options and which badge you prefer will make you go one way or the other.

Also don't confuse STI with TRD. STI is pure performance, functionality and styling for consumers as well as racing, TRD is mediocre at best in any of those categories unless it's for their race cars with TRD stickers just slapped on them but nowhere near actual production cars or dealer options available.

PAImportTuner 11-01-2011 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys (Post 69533)
$31k for what though?

I'll take the base Scion model for ~$8k less and do my own work.

You're just gonna have to wait for the specifics.

In retrospect I could do it for less than you granted I don't have to change internals, the point is you still have a $24k car with $8k in mods costing more, voiding warranty, losing reliability, longevity and still being slower.

All I can say is this will be a car you can drive off the floor, smoke things in the straights, corners and say it was money well spent and not many on the road like it.

PAImportTuner 11-01-2011 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominican (Post 69442)
I dig it, but the fact that more power is coming will make me wait some more time before I pull the trigger. I want my next car to last 10 years with me, and I won't be too happy if there is a more powerful version I could have had. I do like the way this looks though. I've said it before, but I prefer the front from the FR-S and the rear of the BRZ.

Wait for it you wont be disappointed, do not buy the N/A $17k FRS/BRZ essentially that's what it'll be once you drive it off. The car is not going to hold value because there is little mechanical value in it, only perceived value if you know what I mean. If you are OK with ~200whp then that car is for you. If you are used to 300+whp cars or ~11.0 power to weight like me then it's not.

STI variant will cost at least $500+/month with nothing down depending on credit and term, that's another thing to consider.

zigzagz94 11-01-2011 01:53 PM

So PAI, what I'm getting from your posts is that your sources are telling you that there will be a "true" STi version released shortly after the standard model?

jayb 11-01-2011 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominican (Post 69442)
I dig it, but the fact that more power is coming will make me wait some more time before I pull the trigger. I want my next car to last 10 years with me, and I won't be too happy if there is a more powerful version I could have had. I do like the way this looks though. I've said it before, but I prefer the front from the FR-S and the rear of the BRZ.

+1. Buy the Subaru & switch the front end with parts from Toyota (if all the nuts & bolts are in the same place), I doubt you could do it the other way round (modify the Toyota rear end to that of Subaru).

Dave-ROR 11-01-2011 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner (Post 69523)
Out of all the members on here Dave I thought you would understand. Anyways forget Toyota for now, this is Subaru, Subaru with no leash and an estimated 31k USD for the prized STI variant. STI variant not the new gen AWD WRX or STI which is gunning for ~3100lbs.

As said you can drop over 200++# easily. The standard FRS/BRZ will not have factory wheel setup that will reduce 100# alone.

My original point was that the 2,500lbs specified in this article is for the Subaru version of the Scion/Toyota, which we know the weights for (Obviously Motor Trend didn't when the article was written). It wasn't for an STI version, nor any performance version, just a basic BRZ that according to Subaru/Toyota hints will be the same car as the FR-S minus front/rear bumpers, badging and interior trims. I wasn't argueing that you CAN'T lose 200lbs from the car.

Aluminum parts can reduce weight, pretty nicely too, but we don't know what they'll do with an STI version so all we can go by is what they've done in the past, which has increased weight...

You can absolutely drop several hundred lbs from these cars, that's not really a question, but can you do it while making the car an STI? That I'm not so sure about. Adding a turbo will add weight. A bigger engine will add weight. Bigger brakes add weight (a trade off I'm perfectly willing to take generally) but calipers (AL instead of steel) can offset some of that, etc. You can switch to AL doors, AL trunk lid, AL roof skin, AL suspension arms, etc and you'll save some weight, but it won't be a ton. Other than that I only see them increasing weight by adding stuff to the car.

100lbs in wheels? Christ, what wheels are you used to? I'd guess at the stock wheels weight around 17-18lbs, but lets go with 20lbs. To lose 100lbs the new wheels would have to be lighter than air...

madfast 11-01-2011 03:06 PM

so this is the same car that C&D drove, an automatic, and probably took place in the states. having said that, everything they say is all speculation. we now have hard numbers from the brochures. less than 2500 lbs is a wet dream, not reality. the same with the 170 ft lbs of torque, etc.

poormans_LFA 11-01-2011 03:20 PM

The things that really sucks is that the wheel bulges just aren't there on the production car as they are on this awesome looking concept. Perhaps the STI will incorporate such features. Would really up the level of aggression in the design of the production car, especially next to a 370Z with its bulging flairs.

Stubaru 11-01-2011 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 69600)
My original point was that the 2,500lbs specified in this article is for the Subaru version of the Scion/Toyota, which we know the weights for (Obviously Motor Trend didn't when the article was written). It wasn't for an STI version, nor any performance version, just a basic BRZ that according to Subaru/Toyota hints will be the same car as the FR-S minus front/rear bumpers, badging and interior trims. I wasn't argueing that you CAN'T lose 200lbs from the car.

Aluminum parts can reduce weight, pretty nicely too, but we don't know what they'll do with an STI version so all we can go by is what they've done in the past, which has increased weight...

You can absolutely drop several hundred lbs from these cars, that's not really a question, but can you do it while making the car an STI? That I'm not so sure about. Adding a turbo will add weight. A bigger engine will add weight. Bigger brakes add weight (a trade off I'm perfectly willing to take generally) but calipers (AL instead of steel) can offset some of that, etc. You can switch to AL doors, AL trunk lid, AL roof skin, AL suspension arms, etc and you'll save some weight, but it won't be a ton. Other than that I only see them increasing weight by adding stuff to the car.

100lbs in wheels? Christ, what wheels are you used to? I'd guess at the stock wheels weight around 17-18lbs, but lets go with 20lbs. To lose 100lbs the new wheels would have to be lighter than air...

Food for thought: STi never needed to worry about weight, STi's (the car) were already tubby. The few times when STi had to make a car lighter, the RA-spec, they did a very good job at it. I think if tasked with making the car lighter, they will be able to. They just have never really had to.

Stu

Kostamojen 11-01-2011 03:48 PM

SEDAN version!?!?! Thats a thought and a half...

madfast 11-01-2011 04:09 PM

They admit the BRZ structure has been engineered from the get-go to allow for a convertible version, so you can bet we'll see a softtop model within the next few years. And, most intriguing of all, they say the platform is flexible enough to allow for a significant wheelbase stretch. A BRZ-based four-door sport sedan? Now that's an interesting idea...

this jumped out at me. no wonder it's heavier than expected... its like a S2000 coupe...

Streetice 11-01-2011 04:54 PM

I cant read anymore my heads starting to hert!!

9-10 people have some good to say or ask, I want to read it all but ill be here all day :laughabove:

Concept cars body wise are allways beter than producton model in my option but performance tends to just keep going up from there on so I see a nice STI verson to come out later on, something I might just wait for, I can still beat the crap out of my j-body for a little longer hehe:bonk:

Mr.Jay 11-01-2011 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streetice (Post 69718)
I cant read anymore my heads starting to hert!!

9-10 people have some good to say or ask, I want to read it all but ill be here all day :laughabove:

lol only 3 pages man what do you do when we get leaks and a thread explodes into 12+ pages

Lordharding 11-01-2011 06:55 PM

Fantastic
Where do I sign

It's been a fantastic 3/4 days every time I get home I have a email from this great forum


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2026 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.