Those Brembos, fixed caliper? Or not? [Patent inside!]
 

i'm talking about the front calipers

on the Frankfurt Auto Show FT86-II concept
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...8&d=1315926986

and on the recent spy pics
http://cdn1.worldcarfans.co/2011/10/...0313899686.jpg

http://cdn1.worldcarfans.co/2011/10/...4843317904.jpg

so my searching has come up with Brembo patent filings! what do you guys think? it looks like a fixed caliper but its missing key components such as the bleeder valve or transfer tube.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=gw-...brembo&f=false

or is it a new Brembo sliding caliper? made to look like a fixed caliper design. dont believe me? then what is this...

http://www.google.com/patents?id=nfz...page&q&f=false
to me it looks like a caliper cover of some sort... Hmmm.....

and last but not least, perhaps we're looking at the future here, electric combined slider caliper:

http://www.brembo.com/en/News/Docume...%20238%201.jpg
http://www.brembo.com/en/News/Pages/...FICIENCY-.aspx

:iono:

I think we are just guessing until 30th Nov

Kinda looks like sliding ver... but I'm praying new fix ver

it for SURE comes out the 30th?!

Press day for toyko motor show...

:thumbdown:Damnit. I got my hopes up again. Oh well. More time to save I guess!

so I was looking around the web (for my Impreza) and notice some of the aftermarket calipers don't really have the trafer tube... like this one:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...scbrakes-1.jpg

but they're full 6 pot calipers
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/DSCN0795.jpg

So like that ISC caliper, it might have trafer tube & bleeder inside.

nice find! i was looking only at brembos and they all have very similar features, so the ones on the FT are very unique, to brembo at least!

http://cdn1.worldcarfans.co/2011/10/...2010976734.jpg

More spy pics from the vln race.

Make out any better details?

Why didn't they go for a sloted or drilled disk?

they are racing the car not entering it in a car show.....

exactly. i would think slotted at best but not drilled.

Yes, so slotted/drilled better than plain.....

At the same time, slotted/drilled kill the pads faster than plain... BUT I do agree w slotted/drilled is better than plain.

Maybe one of their rules from using it? :iono:

Lol this from a guy who has a race preped car... Says slotted/drilled discs are for show wow...

this has been my idea on slotted and cross drilled rotors for years.

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=480082

"More facts about rotors. May the great myth of drilling rotors for improved cooling finally die...

Darrick Dong; Director of Motorsports at Performance Friction.

"In the days of asbestos pads there was a gas boundary layer that appeared at the interface area of the pad and rotor. Although that gas boundary layer still occurs it is much less of a problem with modern friction materials. Slots are more than adequate to carry that gas away. Years ago that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilled rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling makes the disc run cooler is smoking crack."

Why is Dong so adamant? Because he works with racing brake systems for a living and it isn't too hard to take two identical rotors, drill one of them and slot the other, put them on a brake dyno and measure temps and life.
More facts about rotors. May the great myth of drilling rotors for improved cooling finally die...

Darrick Dong; Director of Motorsports at Performance Friction."

also doesnt cross drilled reduce the amount of surface area for the rotor?

All the arguing over something Trivial, and nobofy notices those MAD coilovers or the brake cooling ducting.... smh @ u guys.

Matador, it is unfortunate but we should actually expect the "FT86 scene" to be full of hellaflush/stance/jdm retards and posers. Nothing new there.


Drilled rotors for a race car? you guys have certainly swallowed the marketing bullshit all the way through. They belong to show and drift cars, real racing cars will always use plain or slotted; drilled tends to fracture in the area surrounding the holes.



This in an actual Toyota F1 car brakes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/...03589940_z.jpg


This is the Audi R10 LeMans winner brakes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2295/...b6327c17a3.jpg



These are NASCAR brakes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/...5ef84098_b.jpg






And this is what happens to your typical aftermarket drilled rotor in a race enviroment:

http://www.devtools.org/rus/mtimages/rotor-cracks-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1..._Rotors001.jpg

ed zachary

Its really hard to find road race cars with drilled rotors and it's for good reason. Slotted and drilling (on the road, slotted does have some benefits off road) fixes a problem that hasnt existed in what 40-50 years now? Pad off-gassing is no longer an issue with modern brake pads. Drilling rotors makes them weaker. Rotors cast with the holes are stronger but all suffer from having less mass. Less mass means less heat holding capabilities. That in turn means less heat is taken out of the cars braking system (pads, calipers and fluid). You also have less friction area as the pad doesn't create friction against air.

To make a modern analogy take a computer CPU and think of it as the caliper assembly and think of the heat sink as the rotor. Do you want a small heatsink with an uneven mating surface (slotted/drilled) or a nice large smooth surface?

On a street car you are less likely to see any problems (the worst I've seen is extensive cracking) but on the track you'll see them break sometimes (not often but I've seen it twice in person, one of which resulted in a NSX slamming into a wall at Sebring).

On the show side people think they look cool so they end up on expensive street cars because most people who buy those cars want that. Every Porsche race car (factory and independant) that I've seen in person have blank rotors yet every (or most?) street p-cars come with drilled.... (cast that way)

Lol yesterday I tried to zoom and read the numbers on the spring to figure out the rate but I failed. I like the ducts (and did see them) but they must have another piece to bring the air closer to th caliper or center of the rotor.

Beyond them looking pretty they don't help any if us much :)

Slotting it reduces the surface area as well. Drilling it leads to a weaker rotor than a slotted, but in reality, ideally, drilled rotors should be done so in a certain manner, for best gas extraction ;) I won't go in to it cus there is no point, but on paper, drilled removes brake gas buildup faster.

Nurburgring and Dave - thank you for taking the time to explain that so I didn't have to. :) I don't know how many times I've advocated for blank rotors and everyone tries to argue. We don't have to worry, though. Toyota won't put anything other than blanks on the FT.

I wonder if they'll offer the air jack setup as an option.......... :bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll:

I'd buy that option in a heartbeat!!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnV...rrera-GT-5.jpg

yeh porsche must be doing it wrong with the best braking car in the world hey? factory "drilled" rotors arent actually drilled, they are cast like that. its not for better cooling its for weight reduction.

pretty sure it is fixed... definitely funky looking though

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A7kOh_VUye...6-Gazoo-15.jpg

I already addressed why porsche sells "drilled" (and mentioned rotors cast with holes) and pointed out that they RACE with blanks.

Supra (MkIV) had shortest braking for longer time than Porsche (til '04) and Supra had a plain rotor

sorry, but what are you trying to say? Supra took the longest to stop the quickest? Lol!

Lol @ this thread. Everyone's a brake expert now.....

Plain brakes are the best.

money should be invested on brake lines, brake fluids, pads....and maybe calipers. But the first 3 should give Lock wheel result as well as better brake feel.

He was trying to say that for a long time Supras stopped in shorter distances than P-Cars.

Well your arguement fails on physics alone.. but here are what some brake experts say (heck they even make and sell swiss cheese rotors! These companies use to take an even stronger stance against them, but I guess when you can remove material from a blank and sell it for 3-5x as much money....):

And note that lots of slotted rotors and just cut into the rotor, unlike the rounded edges on NASCAR rotors (the NASCAR way is proper).

This isn't rocket science. The friction generates a TON of heat, you want a large solid heatsink to take that heat from the pads and calipers and then remove it through the air (the rotors job after generating friction with the pad AND dissipating heat from the pads/caliper).

Do you also believe that in a properly balanced brake system that switching to rotors 2-3" larger and huge calipers actually stop braking distances too with no regard for brake bias/balance? :)

Don't have to worry about that at all.....

My stock brakes on the F (360mm x 30mm F / 345mm x 28mm R) :
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...l/IMG_1679.jpg

I guess Brembo and Lexus got it wrong, huh....... :rolleyes:

those are probably magical holes or something lol

This is FT86Club. Every member is and expert on everything. Fuck your logic. :bellyroll:

There is a lot more science to braking than what we are glossing over here and I'm sure you know this. However, I just felt I needed to mention that you failed to highlight in your quotes that they did in fact mention that there are benefits to grooved and slotted rotors. Just trying to be objective here.

what makes you more of an expert than anyone else in here? please enlighten us all with your wisdom... :slap:

I'm not, AND I DON'T PRETEND TO BE lol!

I'll trust the engineers, not your 5 min searching on google.... :barf:

In that case, would you trust this former engineer?

Keep in mind that, ultimately, the indicator of success of a production car is how much money the model makes. Engineering is not about giving the best performance solution; it's about giving the solution that leads to optimal profits. If automakers would make more profit by embossing Hello Kitty onto their brake rotors, they'd do it. It's easier for them to charge you $500 for your Hello Kitty rotors that costs an extra $10 to make, rather than spend money trying to educate you by doing an ad campaign about how Hello Kitty rotors don't actually help performance. This thought process applies to everything from the most basic Hyundais all the way to the highest end exotics. In fact, I'd say it applies more to expensive cars since the customers are demanding, but are willing to pay and generally won't take no for an answer.

A better indicator of the pure performance potential of a design is in racing. The bullshit stops in racing as the timing clock is key. Racing is still imperfect because rules often govern how the cars are designed, and so many design elements aren't used on racecar because the rules do not allow it. However, to the best of my knowledge, no racing series prohibits cross-drilled rotors, yet they do not appear on any major league racing car.

I can expound on why cross-drilled rotors are not a useful design element, but to do a good job would require a lengthy post. The cliff notes version is that rotors are cooled by drawing air in from the hat of the rotor and expelling them out of their major diameter; the outside of the rotor. The centrifugal force of the spinning rotor drives this air movement, resulting in air that wants to move towards the outside of the rotor. What the air (and by extension, all fluids) does not want to do is make a hard 90 degree turn and exit on the rotor face.

^^ I think I just learned something. Thanks. :thumbsup: