BRZ vs FRS - The Debate
 

We got a new program to play around with. Nothing serious, but we were having a little fun with this.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgAB4PXXm5E"]2013 Scion FR-S vs Subaru BRZ - YouTube[/ame]

Stephen Hawkins vs Stephen Hawkins moderated by Stephen Hawkins. LOLZ! This is great.

I REALLY WANT the Airaid Intake. I hope to win one from TAP auto ;)

Well, clearly the FR-S is the "cooler" of the two. Anyone who disagrees will have their opinion rendered invalid.

:)

Maybe we raffle one at the SEMA mini meet?:eyebulge:

This.

Sorry to be the stickler for details but his name is Hawkings. :thumbup:

Scott

Looks like I'm voting for the FRomney-S

I love my FR-S, but after I bought the car i realize the options that come with the BRZ, and It left me thinking I picked wrongly.

I like the Pushbutton start/toggle switches/heated seats avalible with the BRZ

BRZ has more features and better value after you haggle the price.
Downside now, upside later, fewer being made, harder to find.

My thought on this - the 86 is supposed to be a driver-centered, back-to-basics, pure sports car.

The extra stuff on the BRZ, IMHO, goes against that whole ideal. Extra farkles that add nothing to the driving experience.

The BRZ is a great deal, though, so if those features do interest you, it's well worth the price.

Says the guy with an automatic. Your logic is flawed. Nav, HIDs, e.t.c. don't degrade driving performance. They're creature comforts. An automatic however, does degrade the driving of the car. Buying the auto is like buying a brand new HDTV and watching VHS tapes with it. This isn't some high end, dual clutch unit like in modern supercars.

If the BRZ/FR-S are strictly driver's cars then an automatic goes against your whole "back to basics" approach. The BRZ's extras are like buying a gourmet steak and having them put some crumbled blue cheese on it. It isn't strictly needed, but adds to the experience.

I'm not saying buying the FR-S is a dumb choice. For those looking for a basic car that they're going to modify anyway, it's a good start. I just decided for that little bit more, why not get it from the factory in a wrapper that is more appealing for me?

"Creature comforts" really do degrade the performance/driving of the car

Please point out where HID's or a nav unit degrade the performance of the car. A little extra weight from heated front seats I can see, but if the nav unit and HID's equal a similar weight in the FR-S, it doesn't.

I'm willing to bet HIDs and Nav weigh marginally more. I was thinking more of the creature comforts like heated seats, trunk liner, etc.

They're both built by Subaru...in the same plant...they're both excellent cars!! Most likely because they are built by Subaru (I kid...I'm from a Toyota fan/family since the 80's)??

FR-S: cooler
BRZ: classier

OMG! This whole time I've been calling her Mrs. Krandel! Why didn't someone tell me!

lol. Wow, I've been calling him hawkins for forever. Thanks for the call out. I'll be sure to make that edit in the future. No troll.

Let me clarify then. He pointed out that the BRZ's features go against the "driver's car" nature of the twins. I was trying to argue that buying the automatic version of the vehicle is actually more against the driver's car argument he was making.

I thought it was very ironic.

BRZ has more features and better value
how can you not buy a car that lets you adjust how far away the head light beams are in real time from the drivers seat via a dial???

Hah. I knew someone would bring up the transmission. The problem with that is the fact the I'll openly admit that the auto was a compromise and inferior to the manual. I have my own reasons for wanting it, but the true experience should be had with the MT. I'm just glad I can own this car at all.

If you like the BRZ add-ons then it makes perfect sense to get the Subaru. They just don't hold any interest for me.

I'm somewhat opposed to gadgets and farkles in general. They have a tendency to get out of control and before long you're driving a 3 series BMW.

Without much input to the argument at hand, I would just like to say this was worded quite well.

I'm not saying people are idiots for buying an automatic either. I just found it ironic you mentioning the BRZ items not being driver centric, yet you have the transmission that is even less driver centric than a few standard features for the BRZ. If you owned an AT BRZ I'd still point out the irony. Nothing to do with Scion vs Subie.

Gotcha. In the end they're both great cars. At least the BRZ gives those that do want the add-ons a way to get them, what with Toyota not offering the upper trims of the GT-86 in North America.

I don't know if I would say VALUE.

People associate Toyota with better resale value, and although its the same frame, engine ect, people determine resale value. The FR-S base price is over like 3% less then the BRZ base model.

I think its a crap shoot. If you like the features get the brz.. If your a pureist, go FR-S.

how about this. the FRS weights 2758. the brz limited weights 2762..
a wooping 4lb difference or .15% weight difference.

this 4 lb wont make a noticeable difference on the driving experience unless you take the car to the extrime.

I like the brz for the extra standard features but it's a bit too limited in # of cars sold in SoCal. I'll just have to find a way to add heated seats into my frs.

actually the difference is 2.2% or $540.

4 pounds is still 4 pounds of "unnecessary" weight. I'm not trying to say FRS>BRZ because quite frankly, it's probably not even noticeable to 99% of us. When he mentioned creature comforts do not degrade driving performance, I thought to myself they definitely can. (Ex: A/C, luxury items, etc)

You're looking at it with the FRS plus shipping vs the BRZ without shipping. Plus for myself I got the FRS with a $1000 rebate, while BRZ was extremely hard to get and mark ups were everywhere.

The Japanese stripper model makes the FR-S and the BRZ look like fat pigs.

I bought the Toyota 86 GTS (In 6-Speed Manual) which is essentially the FR-S with the BRZ Limited's Nav unit, heated leather seats, HID headlights, fog lamps etc, etc.

The main reason I bought it was the interior looked brilliant. I can't stand cheap interiors and the 86 GT spec is really really low rent. The digital speedo, leather/alacantra and HID headlamps were what really swayed me. The Nav unit was just a bonus and will be helpfful for countryside weekend getaways.

I enquired about having the seat warmers removed from my model, but alas it can't be done. I don't really want them there to begin with and agree that they're completely pointless.

the frs is not anymore "back to basics" than the brz. both are essentially the same car. yeah, so the brz has a few more features, but so what? there are stuff in the frs that don't add to the driving experience. for example, it's got AC, cruise control, power steering, power windows and door locks, traction/stability control, useless backseats, etc. all these stuff not only do not add to the driving experience, but they also add weight. the bottom line is that the frs/brz are road cars with amenities that does not serve solely the purpose of enhancing the driving experience. it's designed not only to provide you with pleasure behind the wheels, but also to get you from point A to point B in relative comfort in a package that's relatively convenient and practical for day to day automotive needs. the whole "back to basics" and "pure driver's car" labels are nothing but marketing. the frs/brz is not a lotus elise/exige. it's a compromised car. imo, the frs lack features not because scion is trying to make the car more of a driver's car. instead, its goal is to try to keep the price tag under $25K because that is what the demographic scion is trying to attract is willing or able to pay. choosing between the frs and brz is pretty much akin to choosing between a civic DX and EX--one has slightly more features, but they are both essentially civics and at the end of the day, it all boils down to "are you willing to pay X dollars more for X amount more features?"

If you want an unfettered 100% pure driving experience, buy a Caterham or an Ariel Atom.

If you want a brilliant sports car that you can drive to work every day in the winter rain and blistering hot summer days get an FR-S/BRZ/86

Actually it's a $1310 difference, you neglected to add the destination fee for the Subaru while keeping it intact for the Scion.

FR-S(dest fee $755):
invoice - $22990
MSRP - $24200
w/dest - $24955

BRZ(dest fee $770):
invoice - $24327
MSRP - $25495
w/dest - $26265

And depending on your region, there may be an additional fee of $50-$100.

Bingo.

Plus, as anyone who has had Alcantara seats before knows, they hold you in place much better. Push start, keyless access, HIDs, and heated seats are all just icing on the cake. Also got the BRZ at invoice thanks to the glut of them in the northeast. :D

And if nothing else, the orange/red gauges make it worth it. White is terrible for your night vision.

The Pioneer nav you can keep though.

I find it odd how some say the Automatic gearbox offers less than the MT, in a sense it offers a lot more. First you have automatic mode and its settings, traction on/off and sport. Then you have two ways to change gears, using the paddles or pushing the shifter up and down. Then you have use of using sport and traction on/off. I find driving in sport with pure automatic to be quite different then driving in automatic with sport off, same as i do finding using the paddles with sport on and sport off. I think i got the bargain for getting such a nice automatic trans for under 30k. If you ask me, i'm having more fun playing around with this niffy transmission then i did in my old 5 speed and dare i say more in the manual 6 speed.

Oh and you wanna discuss the performance between manual and automatic? Barley matters in this car, its 200 HP and none of us are going to be really time racing against each other. The small difference on the track between an FRS automatic and FRS manual would only truly matter with whos driving it if you ask me.

The 2nd best part is that after driving around with this transmission for over 3 months; i'm still learning more about it every week. Its really something to behold, if you get the MT or the AT on either the FRS/BRZ then you simply have made a great choice. There is no wrong with either cars or either ways of transmission. Its maaaaaad!
Ha...i'm done for the day.

As long as everyone is being pedantic; there is no reason cruise control would add any weight with a DBW throttle. :)

Not in a driver connection sense, which is what the discussion was about.

:bs:

More transmission functions does not equal more fun/ a better car. The MT requires you to be a better driver to extract the full potential i.e. heel/toe, shift points, e.t.c. The manual is the choice for those who want to extract the full potential of a true "driver's car" and want to become a better driver in the process.

Then why am i having more fun? What full potential is there for a car like this? Your talking mere milliseconds. This is a simple machine made to do well on corners and holding drifts, not go on into corners breaking from 200MPH like a race car. I think you guys are simply over looking the whole driving experience. Its not simply how many techniques you use to achieve your shifts but more so on it all feels and connects, which this car has on either transmissions. We cannot simply base the whole driving experience on engaging and disengaging a clutch, that like saying sex was no fun because you didn't do oral.

"extract the full potential of a true "driver's car"" I'm sorry but am i the only one here seeing that as pure bullshit?
What full potential? What drivers car? What makes this a drivers car? I could call a Honda Accord a drivers car if i bought it in MT, thats what your turning it off as.

What about all the cars without a clutch, all those modern automated transmission, are they not driver cars?

Considering there's always been an emphasis on managing all aspects of the vehicle to extract the full potential of it, I'd say it's a driver's car. You don't buy a MT Accord as a performance vehicle do you? The Twins were always marketed as a return to a lightweight, RWD sports car.

There's quite a large difference between a $25000 sports car and a $300000 Ferrari with a dual clutch unit. While the Twins' auto isn't bad, the car was truly made with the MT experience in mind. If you refuse to see that the MT is the true enthusiasts choice, then the point of this car is lost to you. Considering you're comparing it to an Accord, I'd say it already is.