Paddle-Shifters
 

Probably not the most popular topic to talk about (and I might be releasing a can of worms or worse...), but I still am interested in the paddle-shifters that Toyota/Subaru will employ. I really don't want to bring up the topic of manual vs. automatic (in fact, isn't it great that there's choice?), so we can hopefully avoid that and just stick to the topic (Ha!).

From what we know (based in the United States), we have this press release by Scion: http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...-auto-show.htm

"The flat-four can mate with either a six-speed manual or a six-speed automatic transmission. The manual offers quick and precise shifts with a short-throw, while the automatic transmission features aggressive, sporty shifts that are initiated by steering-wheel-mounted paddle shifters. Power is distributed effectively via a limited-slip differential. "

So for certain that the automatic transmission will have paddle shifters; however, they are highly unlikely to be semi-automatic, if the interview with Tetsuya Tada holds true.

"The FT-86 has about half of the computing power that is dragged around in a modern day car. The preferred shifter is a stick. An automatic is optional. The slushbox is nothing fancy. 'No DSG or anything of that kind,' says Tada, and is proud. Sure, the automatic has a computer, but the shift points cannot be changed – at least not at the flip of a switch in the dashboard. Computers want to keep you on the straight and narrow, but some FT-86 owners want that car to go sideways. If you need nannies, go down to the children’s hospital."

The only problem with most of the quoted paragraph is that well... there's a bit of hyperbole thrown in the interview with the interviewer's interpretation, but most likely he's correct.

Currently, I do not recall any information regarding Subaru's version but I wouldn't be surprised that they offer similar transmissions.

Now the discussion/question that I have with regards to the automatic transmission with the Paddle-Shifter is how well it will perform in comparison to other previously-made Paddle-Shifters by Toyota and Subaru. Will they use similar parts from their previous line-up and how do these parts compare? I admit that I haven't ever driven a car with paddle-shifters so I'd like to have some insight from others that have.

From the current Toyota cars that do offer paddle-shifters straight from the factory, we now know that the 2012 Camry SE will feature paddle-shifters: "The SE’s sporty front seats provide thicker side bolsters, and the exclusive three-spoke leather-wrapped steering wheel offers paddle-shift control for the six-speed automatic transmission." Do you think the Lexus-IS series' paddle-shifters/automatic transmission would be implemented? How do they work?

I must confess I do not have much knowledge of the history of Toyota's and Subaru's products but I do want to learn. Any information provided/discussed would be welcome!

My guess is as good as yours in terms of shift times, but I'm betting the car isn't getting a high-dollar, high performance automatic like you see in sporty cars that are only offered with the auto trans. That is, unless people want the auto to be a 2000 dollar option.

I'm hopeful that:
1. the paddle shifters are mounted on the steering wheel column instead of the steering wheel so that they don't move with the steering wheel
2. the "manual" mode is truly manual and will not automatically downshift at its own will
3. the manual mode will blip the throttle on downshifts
4. it uses the IS-F's "Sport Direct-Shift" transmission, which uses a special lock-up clutch for improved responsiveness, and upshifts in a super quick 0.1 second

:thumbsup:

Do not like Paddle Shifters. :/ They feel so.... strange. Lol

lol not gonna happen. Yes, that doesn't mean, you can't dream about it... but realistically looking, not happening

:word:

OK I shoulda said "I'm wishful that..." then.:bonk:

toyota uses two types of "manual modes" in the lexus IS line. on the run of the mill IS350 if you use the paddles, it isnt a real manual mode. instead it simply lets you change the top most gear on the fly. so for example, if you set it to 3, it will upshift up to but not past 3rd gear. however the tranny can still downshift automatically into second and first. and im not talking about auto downshift to prevent "stalling" when you coast to a stop. instead it will kick down a gear when it feels it should. this is NOT a real manual mode.

on the IS-F however, there IS a real manual mode. 3rd gear means you stay in the 3rd gear. if you stop it will reset to 1st gear automatically of course.

for the FT, being a sporty car, it MUST have a true manual mode and i dont think toyota/subaru are stupid enough to not give it one. seeing what toyota has done with the IS-F, the new GS, and even the camry comes with paddles? im very optimistic the auto will be pretty sporty...

I was trying to find more information about how some of the transmissions work, and afterreading a bit on the IS-F Sport Direct Shift I have a few questions. Have the "manual modes" that they use in the Lexus lines ever appear on their other cars? I noticed on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimo...l_transmission that Toyota has employed that fancy named transmission with paddle-shifters onto European cars but not in North America.

Referring to the Truthaboutcars interview, we assume that there might be less computing power (or I suppose a more efficient use?) on the FR-S. There is "No DSG or anything of that kind" is what was said. But, I was reading this article from autotech and I noticed this little bit of info: "The transmission uses planetary gearsets and clutches like most common automatic transmissions, but the Lexus IS F has large, high flow control solenoids to shift each gear. The rapid response of the solenoids and application of the clutches enables the transmission to upshift gears in only one-tenth of a second."

So... what in the world are planetary gearsets and high control solenoids? And I'm still wallowing through some information (Also... my career path isn't in physics/mech engineering... its in uh... biology lol so spare me) but do manual cars and automatics use a clutch? I thought automatics typically had a torque converter or I'm misreading everything. Thanks!

start here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automa...ansmission.htm

what you basically need to know about the IS-F is that they took the 8 speed from the LS460 and beefed it up. They could have went the dual clutch or automated single clutch route, but it would probably have been too expensive. instead they decided to stick with the torque converter auto and re-engineered it for sportiness. at the time, it was one of, if not THE best automatic with the fastest shifts ever seen on an auto.

how that relates to the FT is of course the question of whether or not they will spend the resources to make the FT's auto even half as sporty. according to the interview, it sounds as though the auto is an afterthought. just tacked on for sales purposes. hopefully this is not the case. fwiw, the 2012 camry has paddle shifters that blips the throttle on downshifts. so how can they give the camry this feature and leave it out of a sports coupe? me thinks the auto WILL be sporty. not IS-F sporty, but sporty enough...

I hope the auto is as light as the manual like the 6speed auto in the GC is 3lbs lighter than the manual. I don't think it will.

@madfast, thanks for the link! Informative though some parts still gives me a few uh... minutes to try to mull through and comprehend, but its fascinating how they put it together. How something that is seemingly easy to operate needs something that complicated to make it work.

Hmm... though I'm not sure how the companies manage their transmission, but wouldn't it make sense to pull information that you had on your prototype/more advanced models and place it into the upcoming gen? The research is done for the v8, but I suppose its easier said than done to convert an 8 speed to 6.

But true, from the article, the automatic transmission does seem to be a lesser concern. Yeah, I expect it to be less sporty than the IS-F, but I do hope that its more effective than a camry ~_~; Regarding the earlier talking point by moto, I would hope there would be technology transfer. Oh well, one way to find out right? Wait!

And... Aisin is the company that's most likely to develop such transmission? I'm reading through Subaru's usage of paddle-shifters, and noted that they have a 6speed CVT manual mode (but... that's not how the FR-S/BRZ would be right?). So most likely, Toyota/Aisin engineering rather than Subaru?

I've driven a BMW with paddle shifters and found it to be a bit odd and pointless. I'd much rather drive the "quick and precise shifts with a short-throw" kind-of-car, than to drive with paddle shifters that take away from the driving experience. It's just more enjoyable to drive a true M/T IMO.

...but to each their own! :)

Didn't they recently say the automatic will be a basic, no frills transmission with a torque converter? I don't expect comparable performance between the a/t and m/t, sadly.

No, I respect that, just I never really had the opportunity to learn to drive manual. No one in my family really has a beater that I can just borrow and learn (friends that do have a manual are over two hours away -_- and I don't like the idea of destroying their stuff as well), and I'm from the SF bay area and my mother doesn't exactly have fond memories of driving stick around the city.

So barring my inexperience (I do want to learn how to drive, but currently some time constraints don't allow me), I'd still like to have an enjoyable car to drive even with these weird paddle-like objects. Also, I sometimes encounter stop and go traffic and that seems less than enjoyable. I'm not going to question which item is better (I honestly can't say), but wouldn't it be great if they develop an interesting automatic (hope that's not an oxymoron) as well?

That is not sad, that is the way it is suppose to be.

Mmm in the truthaboutcars article, from what the engineer is quoted saying, "No DSG or anything of that kind" and the rest of it seems showered in hyperbole and speculation from the interviewer. So... mmm... no idea. I was just curious to see how a basic transmission compares with the Lexus IS transmission.

As I quote from madfast, "what you basically need to know about the IS-F is that they took the 8 speed from the LS460 and beefed it up. They could have went the dual clutch or automated single clutch route, but it would probably have been too expensive. instead they decided to stick with the torque converter auto and re-engineered it for sportiness. at the time, it was one of, if not THE best automatic with the fastest shifts ever seen on an auto." and whatever bits of marketing blam I read from other internet sites, I was wondering if there was a similar idea placed. The engineering for a 8 speed is already in place, and its technically not a DSG. So... I dunno, I was hoping someone with more info can enlighten us.

Ah, well I'll stay optimistic. I was really hoping for a mildly impressive a/t.

Well, as I can, erm, liberally interpret the latest interview of Tetsuya Toda's statement, in which he states that he stands by proud that there is no DSG or anything like that. Can you say that you can't have a good automatic still (relative to other auto's... lets not stray into manual :P)? If its engineered to be simple but effective, would it work in a sporty manner? I dunno, I'm trying to be optimistic as well. I'm using the IS-F as a reference point (LFA's transmission is obviously out of the question), but I mean, even the Camry has a 6spd automatic transmission.

I'm looking at this link here: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/2...-drive-review/ and well, he claims that it shifts "pretty quick" but I suppose its all relative ~_~:

Video here of him using it: http://video.aol.com/aolvideo/aol-au.../1124603438001

And referring to this link: http://www.autoguide.com/manufacture...ideo-1594.html we have this quote:

"Perhaps most surprising, however, are paddle shifters and when the transmission is popped into the “S” sport mode, it will even rev-match on the down shift."

... ... well... the FR-S can't be worse right? ... ... *knocks on wood*

Those are a series of unfortunate obstacles in your way of learning to drive manual. I had a small encounter such as this, but when you do happen to learn stick it will be a little frustrating on the stop n go streets, especially in SF (never been there) like you said. Try to make some friends with M/T and have them go over the basics if you're really interested.

P.S. - learn on a long-straight, and secluded road if you can. It takes pressure and obstacles away for easier learning. :)

I am not going to say your method is no good. I think it is wise to learn the basic on an open space with no car around. However, once you know the basic and you want to practice the start up (first gear clutch release is always the hardest.), I found that stop-n-go traffic is perfect for you to practice this skill. Here are my reasoning of why:

1. you get to practice start almost continuously always in first gear. That gives you tons of opportunity to find that sweet spot for clutch release point. You can keep practicing that until you get that feeling of where is the point to release the clutch. Once you found it, you can even start moving the car, although very slow, without even stepping on gas.
2. you are under pressure from behind so you concentrate it more on finding that spot.
3. do not step on gas too much otherwise you could hit the car in the front. Again, if you can find the sweet spot to release the clutch without gas, you really do not need to gas it (or maybe just a little bit).

One problem in SF area: hills. This will make things more difficult. I would suggest you to try this on a flat road first.

I remember when I was learning the manual by myself and stuck on a highway bridge with stop-n-go traffic, after I get off the highway, I have no problem to start and shift the cars. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, I learned how to drive a manual at a mall parking lot at around midnight. You usually have a nice large loop for simulated straight runs, and plenty of turns to go up and down isles. Not to mention practicing parking in reverse. That was kinda tricky. Takes a few tries. Just look out for light posts. lol

yes the engineering IS done. and its probably easy to implement in the 6 speed, especially since aisin makes both transmissions. the problem is probably cost. the IS-F is a 60k car. the FT will be <25k. for the IS-F there is no manual tranny. the auto HAD to be good. for the FT the auto isnt the main tranny and so they dont have to make it "special". but that's not to say that just because it doesnt shift in 0.1 sec that its a bad tranny. it can still be sporty. it can still rev match downshifts. it can still not auto upshift at redline. it can still have full torque converter lockup in gears 2 to 6. it can still be sporty...

RX-8 6 speed auto manual mode. it shifts pretty damn quick for a "regular" automatic. this is the tranny that is supposedly going in the FT as well (Aisin TB-65SN):

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this is the 370Z's 7 speed auto. very, very fast shifts.

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and here's the IS-F

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All in short. Buy GT5. Get the Logitech Wheel with the clutch and 6 speed. Huzzah! You've learned how to drive a stick (kinda) and you didn't crash into any buildings, people or objects. lol

To madfast Wow, all the cars are pretty impressive (I don't know about you, but on some other forums, they make it sound as if the response is as fast as molasses dripping) for what they are. Maybe my reflexes aren't lightning fast but... ... ... dare I ask... would those paddles be that bad? >_>

To MR-uezga, Want.FR-S, and 82mm 4g63, I'll take your advice into consideration. I'll try to see if my schedule and my friend's won't collide (but well... ... we'll see lol) and if we both have time. Only problem being distance ~_~; and well work/school (meh who needs that).

And Giccin, this may sound blasphemous but... >_> I never really enjoyed Gran Turismo lol. Maybe its more fun with the wheel and 6 speed clutch, but dunno... I just get bored with the game. >_> in fact, my PS3 hasn't quite impressed me... I only really enjoyed like 4-5 games (Valkyria Chronicles, MGS4, ... uh... ... ... Flower... ... I'll get back on the other two).

I disagree. This isn't 1996, this is 2011-12 where automatics have come a long way.

its anti-automatic bias. plain and simple.

i bet most people who dog automatics have never even driven a proper sporty automatic. they use the paddles on their brother's friend's grilfriend's honda fit sport and they somehow come to the conclusion that all paddle shift automatics are like that.

however, dont get me wrong, there ARE differences. just looking at the 3 videos i posted, you can clearly see that the RX-8 has the slowest shifts and is the least responsive. however you must understand the auto has NOTHING done to it to make it shift faster, etc. on the other hand i purposely chose the 370Z for the second vid because that automatic is made very sporty from the factory. it uses a conventional torque converter, so its nothing exotic, but they tuned it to shift in an advertised 0.5 sec. it also has partial to full torque converter lockup in gears 2 to 7. and lastly, the IS-F vid is to show you the full potential of a torque converter automatic. 0.1 sec shifts.

so the point is that automatics CAN be as sporty as the IS-F, but most wont go there. too expensive, etc. the 370Z 7 speed however is a very, very attainable goal. and the RX-8 is just acceptable, but even at that level, you can see with your own eyes its no molasses shifting tranny. it's "fast enough" for what it is...

Proper sports car with a proper manual. The perfect blend of man and machine. I personally never want an auto on a non-turbo 4 cylinder car. I'm happy Toyota/Subaru aren't spending a lot of time and money on an auto transmission.

:word:

thanks madfast for the vids.

Here's the thing, I've always hated on automatics, since I once had to drive around in a V6 accord (4 speed autotragic). Well, now, after driving a G37S with the auto, I saw how far technology has come since the bad old days. The damn thing changed way faster than I ever could, and the car was VERY quick.

I still prefer my 3 pedal action, since it is always a more involving drive with 3 pedals, but wow what a transmission.

Now, for the FR-S, Common people, you don't want the auto, you want the manual. The best cars come in manual only. The E34 M5, the E39 M5, the S2000, the older Sti models, all awesome, and their awesomeness augmented by the fact that they were manual.

I happen to think that the head engineer feels that sentiment with me, and it is assuring to know that he doesn't really care too much about the auto tranny on the car. That means more effort was spent elsewhere, more money was spent developing other things, such as a great shift linkage, and a short throw shifter!

I can't wait...

Meh, it's personal preference. The reason most cars don't have ultra high performance automatic transmissions is because they're significantly more expensive to develop compared to a manual transmission of equal performance. When money was not a factor what did Toyota decide to put in the LFA?

I love my RX7 and Talon, both have m/t. I've never been in equally powerful paddle shifted a/t, but I have driven a few paddle shifted cars and they were damn fun. Even though I can't exactly compare apples to apples, I would never say cars with m/t's offer more man/machine oneness than a paddle shifted one. That is more so a mental bias than it is reality.

The thing about the anti a/t hate that makes me laugh is the same sentiment isn't held against other driving enhancements like power steering and abs braking. If having an a/t is a crutch, isn't power steering and abs braking?

The oneness is certainly not mental in the vehicle, unlike in auto's with shift options, the driver of a manual NEVER gets to forget about the tranny and gears, always connected to the mechanisms of the car.

Of those A/T's in the video I have had experience with both the RX8 and ISF, the 8's paddle shifting is pretty much your average shiftable auto. The ISF has some more advanced technology but still shows typical weaknesses of glorified autos... not to be confused with some of the more amazing technology-packed A/T's found in higher priced vehicles. (Hint: No expectations greater than the ISF for the AT crowd.)

I guess I'm weird, but having the luxury of slipping it into auto when I(the driver) am not in MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE-ORMANCE(ECHO-echo) mode doesn't mean I'm any less connected to the car when I AM in performance mode than a m/t. If I'm racing I'm ultimately looking for fastest lap times, speeding up shift times by using a computer is going to help me achieve my goal. I'm not going to forget to shift when I'm supposed to shift just because I have a paddle shifter (and not a stick and pedal). If I do forget to shift in the a/t, yes it is more forgiving than a m/t, but my lap time is f***ed because I screwed up not unlike the m/t counterpart.

I'm all for technological advancements when it comes to every aspect of performance cars. Manual transmissions will always have one weak link, human error. There is a lot more room for improvement when it comes to a/t's, because the human error factor is much less significant. I'll trade the "thrill" of pressing on the clutch pedal for a few seconds/tenths. If all I was after was what I (the driver) was capable of doing I might as well pick up track and field.

:happy0180:

@dominican

Well I have this question, does having an automatic limit its suspension, handling, or any other features?

@82mm 4g63/madfast

Have you ever tried the miata's paddle shifter? I'm guessing its just like the RX8?

@chulooz

Could you elaborate on the typical weakness of the IS-F? And also for the driver never forgetting... doesn't that really just depend on the driver? Its not like everyone drives the same, or utilizes the car in the same fashion.

@82mm: Manual: ALL CONNECTION, ALL THE TIME! hahaha

@buggy: Well the driver doesn't have a choice to forget about the connection to the tranny, the car wont shift! lol By weakness Im implying lack of constant control of the gears and long term performance.

Lol, sorry mistyped what I meant (not exactly putting the full thought into words) :bonk:

I meant, basically that although one may observe better performance and handling on the manual, wouldn't that basically depend on the driver? The idea that manual makes a person a great driver isn't necessarily true (that or well most of the world is filled with the greatest drivers in the world...). I presume that if you can get the same smoothness from driving manual that'll be great when you drive any car but that really depends on the individual.

I'm curious though, from my understanding, I thought the IS-F did a fantastic job in making sure that you controlled the car (and uh... is it really that bad if a computer also takes over?). And don't most cars regardless of transmission lose performance over the year?

:word: also the reason VW didnt bring over the DSG in the Golf R and TT RS is because they would have to get separate certification, like crash testing, for the auto. on those 2 niche models, it just doesnt make financial sense. likewise, the 1M is manual only because of cost. they didnt want to spend the money on developing another tranny for the 1M which is a limited, one year run, model.

only a test drive. but the miata and rx8 share the same 6 speed automatic so it should be exactly the same...

How does ISF shift faster than VW's DSG (0.2s).

That's amazing. I always thought ISF had crappy paddle shifting