Forced Induction - is there a long term reliability problem for the 86/BRZ
 

An interesting quote from this months (October 2012) MOTOR magazine from Australian rally champion Rick Bates;-

Bates had a sneaky drive of the 86 before its local launch and discussions with chief engineer Tetsuya Tada were revealing " I asked him about tuning and he said there are some internal engine parts that won't take (forced induction). So I'll be interested to see how reliable some of these ones making big power will be down the track"

Makes me somewhat wary, but keen to see the various tuners responses.

tuners have this car pushing over 400 HP on stock internals and they have done hundreds of dyno pulls and countless drags and street runs.... I think that is the equivalent of many years of a normal persons use by now.

Interesting quote there. Only time will tell what kind of stress the engine will be put through with the stock internals and forced induction.

I said to myself "well duh!"

How many non-factory turbo cars are built for a turbo? He just gave the engineers answer of "we didn't engineer it that way."

What it was built to do and what it can do are not always the same thing.

"turbo" means different things

low blow at 8 psi is differnet to stuffing it full of 20 psu

I suspect this was his point, how much is too much though?

man says no! period! pretty plain i would say!
chief engineer! he should know! guess that means ya put a "blower"
on it at your own peril!..kiss your warranty goodbye if it blows up!
just sayin'

I must admiy at the moment there are 80 people who havent got very far with their car stock....

One poor guy had only 4 miles on the clock and straight back to the shop. Hopefully they will find the fault soon and have a fix. I think I will let the dust settle before I start "moding" the 86 too far.

I am sure that from an engineer's perspective this car should not have forced induction in stock form.

If they did not factor the higher loading on various components when they were developed, they will not condone going beyond intended use on a stock spec car.

It is not as though the car would have been "over engineered" with cost being a consideration. Stronger components almost always cost more.

That said, perhaps a component designed for say, 100,000 km such as a clutch plate, might work just fine and not "blow up", but rather have a shortened service life.

My concern is for internals whose failures would be "catastrophic" to the engine.

Again, I get the feeling that it's wise to stay conservative with the boost and hope there are no unpleasant surprises.

BTW I know squat about mechanicals. I do, however, work on a daily basis with engineers and have seen first hand they usually won't over engineer anything where there is cost constraint.

Crawford tore this engine apart and said some components were built pretty well. Of course there is always a risk when boosting a car that was not engineered from the factory to take force induction but they have to say that for many reasons. I would put money on it that a well tuned, well taken care of FRS/BRZ that has a modest boost level, 6-10 psi could last over 100k miles. Take a look at the early Mazdaspeed Protege. I owned one. That had a stock Protege engine that was never meant for boost, but Mazda slapped on a Callaway designed turbo kit running 6.5 lbs of boost. I had my tuned at 10psi and drove it daily (including winters) for over 5 years, and 80k miles. I NEVER had an issue. And those engines are horribly weak. The FA20 has already been proven to take over 400whp. I don't see it being an issue at all.

Engineers will always take the safest path when it comes to this sorta thing. The chief engineer had very little to do with this engine other than saying "that works for me" I'm sure.

This is a Subaru engine. The cost to retool an entire machining facility to run this engine means that it's going to be used in several applications. The engine was designed and built with that in mind.
I'd be willing to bet there will be small variances in crankshaft stiffness, main bearing bolt strength, head gasket durability, piston thickness, and piston pin hardness between a NA and turba FA20. Then again there may well be no differance at all.

I hope everyone understand how public relations work. The Chief Engineer CANNOT say the car will hold boost. IF he says yes, first motor that blows up is bad PR. He has no incentive to say otherwise.

In this case, it is better for him to be "proven wrong" by the tuning community.

Nothing to see here guys/gals, move on.

Hundreds of dyno pull where you get your information from? please

Don at Accelerated Performance for sure has hundreds of dyno pulls. He has also been daily driving the shop BRZ with over 450whp, 18-20psi of boost, and a few 1/4 mile runs including an 11.3 at 130+.

If i can get about 30,000 miles on the engine before a rebuild is needed, i'll be happy

The FA20 sort of reminds me of the Toyota 2JZ engine. The 2JZ was offered in both turbo and non-turbo applications. The turbo variant of course is built like a tank, but there are many "na-t" engines out there that produce respectable numbers; way more power than what it came with from the factory.

A turbo version of the FA20 is currently found in the JDM Legacy (2.0GT DIT) that produces 296hp or so. Seeing what the various shops have already done to this engine gives me a good feeling this motor is going to do just fine. But as previously mentioned, only time will tell.

fixed

100 dyno pulls with a brand new engine is not the same as 100 pulls on a car with a turbo with a 5 year old engine.
I'm sure 400whp is too much for this car but if it's doing so well with it I would say 250whp would last forever.

Subaru FA engine
(Japanese: Subaru FA engine) The FA was developed from the FB engine, however, efforts to reduce weight while maintaining durability were the main goals of the FA engine. While the FA and FB engine share a common platform, the FA shares very little in dedicated parts with the FB engine, with a different block, head, connecting rods, and pistons. The FA also features direct injection (from Toyota) and Subaru AVCS variable valve timing system. It is used in the Subaru BRZ, and is identified by a Toyota engine family code known as the 4U-GSE, which is installed in the Toyota 86 and the Scion FR-S.[6] According to Subaru, 0W-20 oil is recommended.
Bore: 86 mm
Stroke: 86 mm
Displacement: 1,998 cc
Compression Ratio: 12.5:1
Power: 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) at 7,000 RPM
Torque: 20.9 kg·m (205 N·m; 151 lb·ft) at 6,400-6,600 RPM
A version with direct fuel injection and twin-scroll turbocharger was introduced in 2012 to the Japanese market for the Legacy GT DIT (direct injection turbo) sedan, and the Legacy GT DIT Touring Wagon.
Bore: 86 mm
Stroke: 86 mm
Displacement: 1,998 cc
Compression Ratio: 10.6:1
Power: 300 PS (221 kW; 296 hp) at 5,600 RPM
Torque: 40.8 kg·m (400 N·m; 295 lb·ft) at 2,000-4,800 RPM



source: wikipedia

I thought this motor already has a turbo in another application. Someone should just compare the turboed motor to the BRZ/FR-S

only time and experience will tell if these engines can safely hold boost.

If don's turbo brz can hold 200+ dyno runs, 1/4 runs, and DD at 450hp 15-20psi. Then i have good hopes for a normal persons FI engine to last 30k+ miles.

why! do! you! use! so! many! exclamation! points!

Don's car would've blown up a long time ago with the way he's been pushing it.

6-10psi should get 100k+

E85 is the silver bullet on Don's and Dynostys cars though. Take that out of the equation and 10psi for 100k miles is by no means a certainty.

he started with 93@6-8psi. Running around 350hp he made 100+ dyno runs on that psi.

You read this right? The FB is not the same as the FA, the designations are separate; the correction stands.

Look on Wikipedia. The FB section is below the FA section of which I posted.

Exactly. And while this is true, I'll be buying an E-85 sensor for my car probably for Christmas as I have a ProEFI standalone ECU.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Yeah that will be a nice move. I'm interested to see how ecutek and others go with their flex stuff. E85 is a bit of a question mark in my build I may just settle for 98 ron.

ODBI versions of the 2JZ-GE had the same con-rods as the GTE. After ODBI Toyota downgraded the con-rods for cost reduction. ODBII GE's are good to around 400whp this is still more than twice the manufacture output. While the ODBI is good for around 600whp.

The best part of E85 in standalones is that they can be flex fueled. You can run any number of combinations and mixtures of E85 and regular gas or premium. This makes road trips cheaper, and racing faster.

When someone turbos a car built for a race track we will know the full reliability since the car is full throttle most of the time.