Hybrid Discussion
 

Love em, like em, or absolutely hate them.

Please discuss them here.

From this thread. Lexus F Page the middle to bottom of page 10 to all of page 11. Almost 40 posts about hybrids.

:laughabove:

I don't buy into the KERS system since there isn't a single mass production version. And since it's used by Porsche, super expensive.

I like the Honda "mild" hybrid system because the battery pack is small, the motor is lightweight, and yet does add enough HP to give good torque for normal DD, and it is available with a standard gearbox. Plus the MPG is better than the standard econoboxes. The drawbacks are mostly Honda related. Only FWD, designed more for DD, etc etc. I would still pick the CR-Zzz over the Prius or Fusion anyday. Although the first thing I would do is put back seats in the car.

I only like Manual trans hybrids, which limits the choices a bit.

Really I don't care if a hybrid system is used or not, if the car is fun to drive, provides feedback to the driver through the wheel, pedals, seat, etc then :thumbup:

Still awaiting a diesel hybrid vehicle. Despite the obvious increase in weight, I'd love to see how it would perform.

I have a belief that the Volt should have had a small turbo diesel (particularly for Europe). It would have grabbed both my attention and recognition. But perhaps it would cut too far into that beloved EV milage.

http://bioage.typepad.com/photos/unc.../07/17/hvr.png

best.hybrid.ever.

<3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J-vYph6abI

A car that combines the two most expensive and heaviest options? It would cost $25k or more for a compact car as diesel hybrid! Just look at how much the "compact" Prius costs and it's only a hybrid. Adding a Diesel engine to the Volt would have added thousands onto the already sky high price!

There is a reason companies are focusing on one not two efficient technologies. No turbo Gasoline-Electric hybrids, no Diesel-Electric Hybrids, etc.

Sure, if money is no object :|.

Go for broke hahaha. I'm sure you've guessed that I'm not a fan of gas-electric (particularly in the Volts case). I would still like to see a decent attempt on the experimental or concept level (where they can "waste" money).

Maybe I'll just make one for the hell of it after I finish school. Kind of like the Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust ;);).

The cool thing about Honda IMA is you can potentially do interesting things with manual trans. If they had a bit stronger of a motor, you could start the car without slipping the clutch for example. I think in the near future we will start to see integrated starter/alternator mild hybrids become more common. Audi already has it standard I think. It's the most cost effective way to get a tiny bit of regenerative braking.

I still think Toyota HSD has the most promise though, they haven't used it on a "fast" car yet, but if they do it should be pretty good :)

Anyone care to explain the difference between Honda's 'Ultracapacitor' and normal batteries?

Well, the IMA motor is plenty big enough (14HP rating) to start out, it's the tiny battery pack that is the limitation besides the lack of a decoupler or clutch to run on pure electric power. Many other Hybrid get better city MPG than Highway because they can run on battery power at low to moderate speeds for even short periods of time. Although the tiny battery pack, that is considered an advantage in a hybrid, means 1-2 miles of range at low speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...ayer_capacitor

Basically it's a capacitor with a lot of carbon particles in it to increase surface area a lot, and increase the amount of charge it can hold. It can handle higher discharge rates than a battery, but holds less power. It cannot discharge as fast as a regular capacitor but has much higher energy density. They figure the vast majority of the time when you are braking, the total amount of energy is relatively small so they can just store that more efficiently with an ultracapacitor. It's like putting a smaller battery on, except it can provide more power when discharging and doesn't lose as much in conversion. Thus, it also doesn't need to be cooled the way a battery does. Flybrid claimed that the conversion from mechanical to electrical to chemical and back with typical batteries has only 40% efficiency. The battery is definitely a big part of this, so replacing it with an ultracapacitor would improve the overall efficiency to maybe 60% or more.

You're a piece of work Sir Carl. :bellyroll:

Most of the manufacturers seem to be working on them, what makes you think a flywheel and CVT are super expensive? It still seems a few years away, but Volvo seems to be ready with theirs.

Drunk.... He has to be drunk! :)

Well the system controlling the flywheel transmission is pretty complicated so I don't think it'll be mainstream for at least some time, since there are probably a ton of reliability issues I'd imagine. Flybrid has had their thing working for several years already, but we have yet to see a single production car with it. A battery and motor make it very easy by comparison.

That's not drunk. That's
http://whoaorno.com/images/759.jpg

Revive!
So I noticed a few things that I pointed out in random thoughts, maybe they'd belong better here. First of all, Subaru seems to be on a roll with developing new engine tech: electric turbo, mild hybrid system, and they have this fancy schmancy D4-S stuff in their toolbox as well now.

Second, the FA20 has horrid low end torque. If they want to make a higher revving FA20 for a BRZ for example, the low end torque would be even worse.

Third, Subaru is somewhat behind on CAFE standards and needs to boost their numbers. Since they're not Toyota size, they need all the EPA mpgs they can get from every single model, BRZ/WRX included.

So how about a mild hybrid BRZ STI? They can put some very aggressive intake cams on for fantastic high end power (say, 8500rpm rev limit, maybe like 240hp), and then a mild hybrid system to give silly low end torque (like, 250Nm at low speed, 150 from the engine 100 from the electric motor or something). If they're slightly clever and use ultracapacitors in conjunction with batteries, battery weight and more importantly COST can be dropped quite a bit as I believe the main reason for a large battery pack is so they can withstand more cycles of high rates of discharge and charging.

I looked into electric motors and such, getting rid of the alternator and starter would be close to offsetting the electric motor's mass gain. Throwing away the lead acid battery for a small lithium pack + ultracapacitor bank good for 100kJ would have no net weight gain, so the only thing you have to add is motor controllers and converters to power the rest of the car at a lower voltage and to feed the ultracapacitor bank from the battery and vice versa. Overall under 50 pounds gained weight. Shedding weight from body panels could easily result in a lower curb weight.

Another benefit would be that once a high voltage electrical system is in place, you have a good infrastructure for electrifying accessories and pumps if desired, and adding say Subaru's upcoming electric supercharging/electric turbogenerator, or future waste heat recovery systems would be very easy.

My CR-Z rocks! It's a good example of how a hybrid can have a good compromise between good MPG and a little bit of fun performance. It's not a sports car but is sporty. The driving modes help too and feedback help too which could be done in any car not just a hybrid.

Yea seriously, the CRZ would've been a great car if they just used a K series motor or even just a tuned R18. Okay, maybe fix the bizarre front end styling too.

Or a turbo with the IMA for 187 bhp combined?

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...n/viewall.html

Turbo is more expensive than just sticking a k20 or even a ported r18 :p besides I don't like turbos the way they are currently.

There's no way the K would have gotten even close to the same MPG. It would have just been a 3 door Civic Si. FYI, the Civic SI only gets 21/31 on the EPA cycle.

I believe the fact that they made it a two seat hybrid killed it more in the US. People are buying them, they are cool looking after all. But they're not selling as much as Honda hoped.

I have respect for the Lea engine series they used in the CRZ as a fuel efficient engine but it's not the best way to start a hybrid with a 10+ year old engine simply retooled for the new car. They went for the cheap approach and completely lost out in the USDM market. JDM they sold better so I guess it was a draw in the end. :iono:

But it's a hybrid turbo! Or are you proposing a hybrid K20? That would be a pretty cool hybrid CRZ.

I guess that's true, but 1.5 is just not enough displacement. They could be like GM and require super early shifts and all, and program the CVT to run the engine at no more than 2000 rpm lmao.

:iono: The power is sufficient for the weight, and the CRZ has fairly short gearing. But even a Prius can maintain 80MPH. It just takes a bit to get there.:bonk:

Sufficient for you, sufficient for me, not sufficient for the average American. :bonk:

I would LOVE to see Toyota make a sporty Hybrid

Chassis: FR-S, possibly elongated if the engine sticks out way past the front wheels
Engine: how about a 3ZR-FE with Miller cycle? 3ZR-FSE?
Transmission: a version of the GS450h would do quite nicely

Make it a 2 seat coupe or roadster with folding hardtop. The battery pack can be Lithium ion that's mounted low, where the rear seats used to be. hp can be around 200ish, and for a HSD hybrid that would be very, very fast. last but not least, the most important thing toyota can do is program the HSD to be fun. im convinced the eCVT used in toyota's HSD can be fun if only they let it. heck the JDM CT200h comes with paddleshifters. there's no reason why they can't tweak the HSD to be a little less economical, for the sake of a little more fun.

The eCVT is unfortunately fully automatic, and very complicated to control :( Call me crazy, but the more stuff I get to control, the more fun I have, and having only a gas and brake pedal is a bit disappointing.

While a mild hybrid doesn't help EPA scores much, it can provide a sizeable real world benefit in fuel economy and allows 3 pedals and a stick :D

Bleh - it's sad. I love how the car looks - I think the design was solid. Just that it doesn't do anything particularly well - not super strong, not the best MPG (it is ranked #4, but we have pure petrol vehicles now like the Skyactiv getting 40!)

Disheartening :( Wonder if the civic refresh will make Honda offer anything else this year

the GS450h already has paddleshift control, as does the JDM CT200h. they can do it, only if they want to do it. now im not saying you can make an eCVT feel as good as a DCT or even a good AT, but compared to the prius' rubbery eCVT? there is a lot of room for improvement. the GS450h is a good example of progress. its not perfect, but it feels much better than the rubbery prius.

IMA and mild hybrids are a bandaid solution. they add better fuel efficiency to a relatively inefficient package. instead i say to start with a highly fuel efficient package, HSD, and try to make it sporty. if it means lower fuel economy, so be it. with such a fuel efficient foundation, it can stand to lose some mpg in the name of fun. a relatively low weight, 200 hp, HSD full hybrid FR-S would be KILLER. not for the sportscar market, but for the green market. what better car for empty nesters to have relative fun in?

If you want a paddle shift style HSD, then you might as well throw away the torque split device and all... limited gear ratios and the need to "shift" are exactly what HSD is trying to get rid of. They do have gears (4 I think, not sure), but have a continuous range of ratios that they can operate at due to the electric motors.

If you degrade an HSD system to shift like a normal transmission, then you essentially have Honda's hybrid AWD system. If you just package an HSD into a car and then use it the way you describe, then the whole torque splitting thing in the HSD is wasted and might as well not be there. For this reason I don't think Toyota will be bringing out a "sporty hybrid" for a while, as it'd either waste money in production or cost extra money to develop a new system.

HSD is a wonderful transmission, it's just not what you want for driver involvement. I'm looking forward to seeing the new Honda cars, they have a lot of potential to be sporty and involving. Same goes for any of the companies bringing mild hybrid systems to the market soon.

you dont have to throw the tq split device away. not at all. the GS450h has paddle shifters and basically all they do is offer "manual control" to sort of simulate stepped gears. for instance, if you are cruising along, you can "downshift" and that will change the power draw of MG1, thus forcing the ICE to spin faster, simulating a downshift of a stepped tranny. step on the gas and there is more power from the ICE, that was forced to spin faster. i believe the official use of the paddles is to offer manual control over how much engine braking you want, for extended downhill driving. the paddles get rid of the B mode as seen on the prius. the other side of the coin is that it offers a slightly more engaging driving experience. relatively of course.

even if we forget about the whole paddle shift thing, the main point is the programming. they can program it to allow the ICE to spin faster, thus making more power, but obviously use more gas. ECO mode can bring it back down to prius levels and PWR mode can even bring it up a notch.

But the paddle shifters are more or less controlling engine speed right? In that case, rather than having the differential type thing they have going on and the gearbox, it would be better to detach one of the motors from the system, and use an 8 speed transmission. Do you get what I mean? Have 2 separate drive systems essentially, like Honda. It's much cheaper, and so I think Toyota won't do it because for them it would mean creating a new hybrid system that will be obsolete eventually.

Okay that was really wordy, to sum it up in 1 sentence, why would you emulate gears with a more complex and advanced system when you can just use gears? I think one of their 8 speed transmissions could ditch the torque converter and use electric start or something like that, I just don't know that a big company like Toyota would bother. One motor would directly drive, and one motor would have to push against an engine while starting, but I imagine it could work. It'd be a little creepy seeing an idling engine have revs hit 0 as you press on the gas lol.

Actually, the eCVT is very simple. It's two electric motors and a single planetary gearset. Both motors provide force to move the car, so replacing them with a single motor wouldn't save any weight/cost because it would need to be twice the size, then on top of that you'd have the additional weight, size and cost of a traditional transmission.

But with that said, emulating gears with any kind of CVT is just silly.

Oops, I remembered the eCVT operation wrong. Terribly sorry about that. Yea it's simpler than a gearbox, provided you have the motors.