BRZ or Bust? Advice Wanted From GS-R Drivers
 

I have happily driven my (stock) Integra GS-R since I bought it back in 2000, and would continue doing so if it weren't for the burning oil (1 qt. every 800 miles), various electric motors starting to fail (trunk, driver side window), etc. At this point, I'd rather buy a new car than spend increasing amounts of money fixing a 12 year old one. Fortunately, I read about this new car last year - the BRZ - that looks like a perfect replacement for my Integra. Unfortunately, I can't find one available to test drive anywhere.

My wife says I should just put down a deposit and order the car anyway, but before doing so, I'd appreciate some input from GS-R drivers on how the BRZ compares to my car. This will be a daily driver - I've never tracked or autocrossed before, and if history is any guide, probably never will. For comparison, I've recently driven the following (new) alternatives, and these are my thoughts (note - these are quick, pithy comments from my test drives, not informed research from years of experience with each car - it's not my intent to offend anyone, just surface my concerns about ordering a car I've never driven):

Mazda Miata: I tested one in 2000, but felt way too exposed, so I bought the Integra instead. I thought I would like this car for the handling rather than the open top, but after driving one, felt the exact opposite. The car drove softer (and certainly no better) than my Integra, and required far too much shifting (I bounced off the rev limiter at least once), but the wind in my hair brought an instant smile to my face. Unfortunately, with three kids, my wife vetoed this option.

GTI: On paper, this looked like the perfect car - rave reviews, decent power, nice interior, ability to fit the entire family in a crunch... but the driving felt even softer and more disconnected than the Miata, and (overall) not any faster than my Integra. I was also reacquainted with the evils of torque steer - something I haven't experienced over the past 15 years with my Hondas.

Mazdaspeed3: A big improvement over the GTI - I could actually feel the road again! Compared to the GTI, using the clutch was like lifting weights, but at least it didn't feel like a flimsy toy. Oh, and did I mention TORQUE STEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God, I hate FWD cars…

Mustang V6 w/ Performance Package: Only had 2 miles of gas left, the salesman didn't want ask for more (told him I wasn't buying that day), and constantly complained about people just using the car for a joyride, so I didn't get much of a test. When approaching a speed bump, the brakes felt weak and spongy, so I hit it faster than expected… and heard a clunk when we came down on top of it. I thought this car was supposed to have a good suspension? My Integra took the same bump at a similar speed with no problem. The Mustang may be too heavy for me, but I really need a better test.

Civic Si: You say FWD cars have torque steer? Not this car. Plus, I could actually feel the road! Unfortunately, the engine felt / sounded more like something from a toy than a real car. I couldn't escape an overall feeling of cheapness from the Si.

Acura ILX MT: Take the Si, give it a nicer interior than any other car in this post, a somewhat better sounding engine, and an incredibly boring exterior - all for just $7k more! Alrighty then…

Volvo C30 R-Design: No manuals on the lot. No torque steer that I noticed, but how can you really tell with an AT? Seemed ok except for the fact that I was distracted by my foot getting stuck on the top of the footwell every time I switched from the accelerator to the brake (and back). WTF is up with that?

In general, compared to my GS-R, it appears modern cars (even "sporty" ones) have soft suspensions, flimsy, cheap feeling pedals and steering, torque steer (unless built by Honda), and hit the rev limiter waaaaay too fast (I prefer how my GS-R can hit freeway speeds in 2nd gear).

I would appreciate any comments from GS-R drivers on how the BRZ compares.

I just saw the movie Hit and Run and because of that I can't take the name "Pouncer" seriously.

:P

lol - never even heard of the movie until you mentioned it, and now I want to change my forum name. :confused0068:

if you plan to stay stock or close to it, there arent many better choices than the frs

I used to have an Integra GS-R (keep in mind this was over 10 years ago) and just bought an FR-S.

IMO, the FR-S is a true sports car whereas the GS-R is merely a sporty coupe. The FR-S feels more rewarding to drive (quick steering, neutral at the limit, RWD), but forces you to make the compromises that a sports car does (low, stiff suspension, lacks storage space). The FR-S has a little more low-end torque, but the cars feel about the same in terms of outright speed.

Personally I thought the GS-R could stand to be a little more sporty, so the FR-S is almost perfect. About the only things I prefer on the GS-R are the transmission and engine note.

Also agree with you on the Miata. Fun car, but a bit soft in corners.

I owned a Celica GT-S for 5 years which is comparable to the GS-R but more rigid and my college housemate had a 97 or 98 GS-R hatch which I'd driven to and from campus a few times. The GS-R had nicer low end response than my Celica but the BRZ's port+direct injection makes for even better response compared to both those cars. If you liked your GS-R man you will LOVE the BRZ. It takes all the strengths of the GS-R and does it better and with RWD+LSD. Only comparative downside I can think of is it requires premium rather than regular fuel.

@Dave-ROR, care to chime in? Dave has 3 Integras and a BRZ Limited.

i suggest finding a scion dealer and driving an FR-S, most dealers (in canada anyway) have at least 1 on the lot at all times for test-drive purposes.

just dont expect to drive a manual.

How many miles do you have on your GSR, where in CA and is it for sale? I used to have a '94 and those fixes are pretty easy to do.

I had 275,xxx miles before I retired mine and when I test drove the FR-S, it felt very similar to my Integra but not as roomy and tall. It didn't rev and pull as fast as the GSR but the transmission was a lot smoother and more crisp on the FR-S.

I say, put a deposit down and wait for a test drive since it's refundable.

haha this exactly. im looking to get a car alongside my frs that maintains much of its purpose but that i can commute (700-800 miles a week) until im done in december

A stock GSR, especially the last year and with an original order are hard to come by. I'm assuming the oil leak could be the rear main seal and window reg are the culprit.

Pouncer, can you post up pics of your car, I would love to take it off of your hands if it's clean.

lol - I was looking for information, not someone to buy my car!

I live near Sacto, but I'm visiting Tahoe for the next few days. I'll post pics, etc. when I get back. Either way it would be a bit of a wait, as I probably wouldn't want to give up my old car until I got a new one, and don't know what the wait time is on a BRZ right now.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Interesting comparison and one I had not thought of yet. I like your initial reviews of the cars listed! :-)

Wow I do miss my 94 gsr. Drove it till 250k until I gave it to someone.

Did 7000rpm in 5th gear. Took forever...

But if my memory serves me the back seat was bigger because I had passengers in and they could put their feet down.

Only regret is not upgrading to a type r.

I think it has very good handling for a front drive car and quite forgiving - granted it was not as good as the s2000 I had.


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I have been a Honda guy for a very long time. I have owned a ton of Hondas, work on Hondas everyday, build Hondas and I still like what Honda represents. I owned a very rare real rhd (not converted) silver 98 spec Honda integra type R (hence my username). I had it for three years and I loved the car for what it was and I really miss it. It was imo about as close to a raw oem fwd sports car as you could get. That being said the only real reason I would want it back is because of the rarity of it. If Honda had anything right now that stood out and was seriously a fun car and rwd I would have bought it in a heartbeat. There are a lot of things I love about my BRZ over a 14 year old integra. The car is solid and not just solid because it is new but because you can tell it is engineered and built well. I personally can't compare the comfort and appearance of the interior because I absolutely despise gsr interiors. The oem recaros made it better seat wise in the itr but it just doesn't compare. I love driving my brz any chance I get. I am not one to complain about the power because coming from an allmotor background in hondas it feels great. I build and drive cars everyday that have way more hp then my BRZ but i like it. Yeah more power would be fun at times but it is plenty for what it is and I already knew what I was getting before I bought it.

If you don't mind having a smaller back seat then your gsr I think you should try like hell to drive one. I think you will like it...but its something you need to experience.

[QUOTE=Pouncer;425332]TORQUE STEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God, I hate FWD cars…

Mustang V6 w/ Performance Package: I really need a better test.
/QUOTE]

To simplify...since there is no new GSR and you're looking for a car in the same class, the choice is clear. BRZ or FRS. Pick your color and fascia. If you absolutely must have a "real" back seat, then report to your local Ford dealer!
:burnrubber:

Another Honda guy here and have been driving my EK9 hatch for 14 years now and also owned the Integra VTI-R previously, so I know exactly what you mean bout trying to find a suitable replacement.

Suffice to say after test driving the BRZ, I've ordered it to replace the ageing EK9 now :)
Coming from the Type R/ VTEC engines, I enjoy how the BRZ is just as rev happy and the gear shifting is great. Nice short throws to engage and the steering is sublime. The only thing I would say I find uninspiring is the grunt of the engine compared with the VTEC etc. Nothing like hearing the roar when VTEC is engaged!

Thanks for the additional comments, guys. I'm a little concerned about the back seat comments because website specs say they're larger than my Integra's (and equal to the Mustang's). Granted, when the front seats are all the way back, there's no room, but when I sat in an AT version with my assumed MT seating position, I had no trouble sitting behind myself (I'm 5'8"). I'll look into the deposit -> order -> test drive approach later this week.

As requested, here are some pics I took of my 2000 GS-R back in April (currently 135k miles). You can see more here. Anyone who's truly interested can PM for more info.

Very clean gsr!

Having recently drove both a new stock BRZ and used stock GSR(100k+) lately, I would say get the FR-S/BRZ if you want an upgrade, keep the GSR if money is an issue.

I drove a newly bought BRZ and have to say the suspension is much firmer and throttle response is much smoother than a stock GSR. Speed/performance wise very comparable but the FR-S/BRZ has LSD/RWD which makes exiting turns much more enjoyable. Sitting in the FR-S/BRZ, it is much sexier and engaging like if you were in a cockpit. If you ever driven an S2000, imagine that but w/ better/roomier interior but 40hp less. Im still a student in college so i will let you guys enjoy thr brz/fr-s until i have a ft job.

I use to own a 98 gsr back in the days before it it was stolen and although I don't have frs yet, I've sat in few and played around with the back seats. I would say the frs/brz back seats are very similar to the old 97-2001 preludes back seat pretty small. The GSR back seats are definitely more useful similar to the 2000-2005 celicas.