FR-S vs. Used Sports Car Market
 

So, I always read about people trying to find the FR-S's niche in the current sports car market, but, I was wondering, how will it fare against comparably priced second hand sports cars? Stay with me for a moment.

[[[WARNING: PURE SPECULATION INSIDE]]]

Now, I suspect the FR-S will fall in between, and this is a rather large margin, 19.9k-27k. The former being, of course, the standard model, and the latter being the fully equipped version. Now, for this money, there are a slew of other sports cars you could buy. So, how will the 86 successor compare?

So, again, let's practice some more speculation. Suppose the car weighs in between 2,400 and 2,700 pounds. Further, let's say the direct injected boxer motor will put out in between 200-240 BHP.

[Note: All of these margins are purposefully wide to encompass all probable] data]

For that money, you could also get second hand versions of these cars:

[Tentative list here, folks]
[Most data fetched from wikipedia]
[All used car prices are from KBB, besides the Lotus Elise, and are quoted, with the exception of the Mark IV Supra, for an average of 60,000 miles]

Evo 8 2,910–3,109 lb 276 BHP/ 273 LB/FT 16,295 ['03 Model]
Evo 9 2,888–3,285 lb 287 BHP/ 279 LB/FT 20,650 ['06 IX Model]
STi ~3,300 LB ~300 BHP / ~300LB/FT 23,540 ['07 Model]
MKIV Supra 3,417 lb 320 BHP/ 315 LB/FT 21, 340 ['94 Model. 100,xxx miles]
Lotus Elise 02-07 1,896 lb ~120BHP/~120LB/FT 22,xxx-29,xxx['05 Model][NADAGUIDE]
C5 Z06 3,115 lb 405BHP/400LB/FT 22,020 ['03 Model]
S2000 ~2800 LBS 240BHP/153LB/FT 15,345 ['03 Model]

Of course, there are other candidates, too. E46 M3, 350z, Mustang GT/Cobra, etc.

So, with all of that said, do you think it's viable to compare a new sports car to similarly priced second hand sports cars? If so, how do you think the FR-S stacks up?

Well do you want second hand or new? That's the number one question.....
I won't settle for a second hand car, I know how I treat my cars, and wouldn't like to buy a high maintenance flogged out second hand sports car.

I think maybe you misunderstood the thread a little. EDIT: I guess I misunderstood a little. Haha.. I just saw your edit. I am not in the market to get another second hand sports car, and, while I might get a FR-S, it's a little beside the point. The point is, however, to discuss the decision of buying a new FR-S or looking at a comparatively priced used sports car. Why would you get one over another?

It seems like the typical market for the car, at least those on forums, are at least a little mechanically inclined. So, replacing parts and performing maintenance on a used car shouldn't be an issue.

Personally, I don't really mind buying a used sports car. I mean, I bought my STI used. It only had 27,000 miles, but I have no idea what the car was doing during that period. It could have been autoxing for 5000 of them for all I know. However, the compression checked out, the car hadn't been in an accident, and, overall, everything was exceptionally clean.

If you plan to modify a used car, you shouldn't have to worry about previous owners abusing certain components. I.E powertrain, suspension

Light weight FR sports car that isn't convertible is something I'm looking for and that list you listed don't have it. Elise is light weight... but it's not FR. Love Supra... but haven't seen $22k, where I live.

Note:
S2k doesn't weight 2600 lbs, it weight 2809~2864 lbs

Then you're missing: GC, Rx7, Rx8, 3000GT, GTO, Mustang, Camaro, G35, M3, Z3, Z4, 944, 911, Boxster and no end lists

Ehh, I sort of got lazy and guessed on the s2k's weight. Hahah.. I'll make sure to edit the original post.

I was wary of the S2000 being a convertible, too, until I drove one. They're really exceptional cars. The revised 2.2 litre motor makes up for the torqueless F20C.

Is engine orientation [F/R/M] really that important to you? I guess I've never really thought of it that way, but I have a slight bias towards mid/rear engine cars.

This is a strange thread.

That's depends on were you live. S2k owner in Japan really hating F22 due to loosing that 9k rev.

Yes, it is important. It's like saying 2.5i & STI are same thing

Ok, looking at it from your point of view, I think it will fair good. Toyota does not have a sports car available. This is it. There is no drift cars available on the showroom floor. I think second hand direct competitor is the 240sx in your country, all the others indirectly (same cost performance cars).

I think the biggest competitor on the showroom floor right now is the 370Z. I'm sure there's going to be heaps of comparisons between these two!

I would get the FR-S. It's a completely new car, not to mention Toyota's first sports car in a while.

As long as the production version doesn't turn out to be a complete disaster regarding weight and price, I think it will be a better buy than a used car from that list.

Well, actually, the list isn't all encompassing, but I think the concept can be conveyed without creating a list of ALL used sports cars. : /

Quote:

Originally Posted by tree fingers (Post 55118) Of course, there are other candidates, too. E46 M3, 350z, Mustang GT/Cobra, etc.

You've misunderstood me. I'm asking about the driving experience of FR vs. MR/RR, and why you prefer FR to MR or RR.

I can understand variance in opinion. I don't want this thread to turn into an AP1 v AP2 debate, so I won't say anymore. Hahah

Why? Because it doesn't propagate "insider information" that's actually just copy/pasted from a motor-trend article? Hahah...

Why are you here? Are you a troll??? Don't feed the troll!!!

You've got the be kidding. :sigh:

This is the kind of discussion I was looking for!

As long as they keep the weight down, this car has the potential to be a proper sports car. : ] If I was in the market to get a used sports car vs. new FR-S, it would certainly be a difficult decision.

I think he's posting a legitimate topic for discussion. It's not like we have much more to talk about. I, personally, would prefer the new Scion/Subaru to a used sports car. The only way I'd go the comparable used car route would be if it were a car I absolutely loved, I personally knew the previous owner babied the car, and the price/condition of the car was too good to pass up. Tough standards, which is why I think I'll most probably end up going new.

Edit: Of course, this is all based on the hopes that the FR-S remains lightweight, cheap, and fun.

The solace of knowing for certain that your car hasn't been abused by someone else must be nice. Regrettably, it's something that I've never experience. So far, I've been pretty lucky, so no complaints from me. Hahah..

I've said on here before, if Toyota misses with this, I will be buying an MR-S, a hard top for it, and putting in a 2ZZGE/6M combo. Do lightweight, quick, great handling, good economy the way Toyota should have back then.

Can anyone imagine what the MR-S would have been if it were a coupe from the factory, and shared the more aggressive Celica styling cues (instead of the squared baby Boxster), with the 180 hp 6 speed combo? Would've been damn epic...

Personally I really like what this car could be, but I could probably get an E30 BMW and swap in a 1UZ and be happy.

fixed. :thumbsup:

Hah, I'd probably go with the UZ. Building it up for N/A power and having an 8k+ redline would be an awesome experience.

This discussion is valid and relevant. I've bought pristine used cars with barely any miles and also high mileage abused ones and learned to tool around with them along the way. Used cars in general can be a smart purchase. But if you're specifically going to get a used sports car with a manual transmission that most working class people can afford, you WILLLL find more abused ones than not (from my experience). I'm so over "discovering" issues with used cars... I want a fresh start with the FR-S which will be the first new car I've ever purchased.

But due to the long, grueling wait, my mind has been wandering towards 350Zs, Evos, MR2s, etc. lately. I even test drove a couple C5 Corvettes (both had signs of body repair despite being sold by Chevy dealers w/ clean titles).

I swear, any delays on the FR-S launch will just increase my chances of finding that one clean example of an unmolested, low mileage used sports car!

It would have been a more affordable Lotus Elise. I also wish Toyota merged the Celica/MR-S into one car, having owned both.

I thought about swapping in a 2ZZ/C60 when I had my MR-S. I imported a hardtop from Japan, too. Things that held me back were the body panels were bolted on (not truly monocoque like the FR-S will be) and the hardtop added virtually no rigidity. For my daily purposes it felt a bit flimsy weighing ~2200 lbs and I decided to sell it. But for the track, it's a perfect weapon (if you can manage the twitchy handling of an MR layout).

Ive always had 2nd hand cars.
Ive been pretty happy for what I have owned.
In a daily I dont want to have to replace worn out/perished parts,Leaky gaskets etc. which I had to do quite a bit. I never really been inerested in buying a brand new car.... untill I heard about the FT86.
I had always wanted a equivelant to a brand new Jowett Jupiter/Javlin.
And this is pretty close. Flat 4, 2 door coupe, RWD, Manual Trans.
Partly designed and built by Subaru. Ments to be Fun to drive.
It ticks all my boxes so far.
Best of all its A brand new car and looks good... Hope that the production verson doesnt go to dull/ugly.
Most brand new cars I just plain dont like and couldnt see myself owning.

:word:

I said the same thing over and over again. I wish it looked more exotic with a better engine. I love the 90's generation that a couple members here own with its Ferrari-like swag.

This thread is a good one, as for over a year I've been comparing the FT-86 in my head against used sports cars that are in the same price range. I abhor how heavy all cars are getting as the years go by so the FT-86 has me excited. But if they fail to make this car as light as they've promised then I won't have any interest in it at all (kind of like the Hyundai Genesis).

I currently own an S2000 and while it's a great car I need a fixed roof coupe. I'm not a huge fan of convertibles and they're a huge pain at track events since most clubs and tracks don't allow them to compete without aftermarket rollbars.

I plan on replacing my S2000 with the FT-86 (but only if it's a performance improvement) or Porsche 911 (996) or Porsche Cayman S. Being concerned about a used sports car's history is a valid concern, especially with the Japanese ones previously mentioned in this thread. However as you look at used cars that originally cost $60k + the odds that the previous owner abused the vehicle go down greatly. People that can afford cars that expensive generally take good care of them and are mature enough not to abuse them.

It would be nice to buy a new Toyota sports car instead of a used Porsche, as the maintenance of the Porsche will no doubt be higher. But if Toyota can't deliver where else can I turn for a 3000lb (or less) RWD coupe that is less than 10 years old?

I'm tired of used cars. I thought I bought my Miata in excellent condition, but it's beginning to show its age and the lack of previous owner's care.

For the price of a new FR-S, I could fix all those problems and still have money leftover to make it faster than the FR-S. I'd rather have a new car with a warranty and the comfort of knowing that I'm taking care of the car the way I want from birth.

While there are plenty of used cars out there that will outperform the FR-S, I'm thinking (hoping) it provides a different enjoyable driving experience.

I love the idea of the FT86, but I don't think the cost in upgrading from my 2zz-ge Celica to the FT86 is going to be worth it. Yes it will be newer and handle a bit better but its not really going to be a lot faster.
Unless its cheaper and faster than I think it will be, I'll keep my Celica for daily duties and get a used 200sx Silvia as a track car.

The numbers for the Elise are also wrong, at least for US cars.

It comes down to what you want. You can get a better pure sports car for FT86 money, or a better GT car, etc but it's going to be used so you'll have maint expenses earlier, they can be harder to finance, etc.

Its also going to come down to financing for many. Having 25k lying around with out financing is not the easiest thing.

For example, what bank in their right mind is going to finance a 20yr old car? (Supra)

It'll be much easier to get a new ft.

Yeah, I have the same dilemma. I need to get a car for track and I would love to get the FT-86 because on paper its the perfect track car but that also mean that I'll have to wait a while and also buying a brand new car in its first year of production. Been thinking about getting a used Miata or E36 M3 now and use that for 2 years and then get the 86. What do you guys think?

I think you should wait the few months we have left and find out exactly what the FT will be. Then make your decision.

Yes, definitely. I won't do anything until December. I guess my question is based on the assumption that everything they say about the 86 is true.

They're something about fixing up classics and older cares. I figure if I can't afford a new car or I decide to wait for something eke I wouldn't mind getting and older car to restore like a Z31 or an old Supra

I totally agree with your statement about the upgrade difference.

According to NADA, those numbers are correct for a 2005 Lotus Elise with 60,xxx miles. This includes the range between low retail and average retail; however, I purposefully excluded high retail, because it's atypical and unreasonable.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...53k-mi-104307/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...-cheap-103890/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...c-area-103218/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...ngeles-103053/

All under 60,xxx and 29,xxx$

The 996 chassis is barely under that mark. Hahah.. Although, don't listen to me, the 911 is one of my favorite cars, so I'll talk it up whenever I can.

On the topic of managing or avoiding previous owners abuse:

Is it possible to look for indications of abuse through standard checks?

compression test
leakdown test
pulling turbochargers for abnormal amounts of shaft play
etc

What do you guys think?

I used to have an Elise and traded it in for my current Exige S. Yes, the prices for used Lotus actually went up a bit. I recall last year there were a few 2005 Elise selling below $23K with low miles. Lotus is actually a good used car to buy. People either track it or keep it as a garage queen with very low miles and take extremely good care of it. The car takes a huge depreciation hit the first few years but I think the price is now stable. It might actually go up a bit because of the fact that they don't make Elise/Exige any more and the new direction that Lotus is going with upscale cars to compete with Ferrari and Lambo.

Also run your hand over the running engine to feel for leaks, sniff for smells, compare oil level/color before and after a test drive, look at the ground for leaks before and after the drive. Listen for odd rattles when you floor it. These are quick indicators before doing those more involved tests you listed.

Test drive other cars of the same make/model/year in near perfect condition (usually priced higher with lower mileage). Familiarize yourself with where power comes and drops in the entire rev range and feel of the transmission and suspension. This gives you a standard to test against.

Check for consistent spacing between body panels and compare spacing on left vs. right body panels. Look along edges/crevices for signs of paint work, non-factory paint defects (dust, craters), or inconsistent texture or lack of factory orange peel texture on panels.

Put the car on a lift and check suspension for welds/breaks/recently replaced parts. Have a shop do a full laser alignment inspection and confirm everything can be aligned back to factory spec. Make sure they check more than camber, caster, toe; measure steering axis inclination (not directly adjustable) and calculate included angle (not directly measureable) among other things. If the secondary, more involved measurements are off, then most likely something has been bent.

In the end you just have to compare vehicles and get what you want. You'll almost always get a better value from a used vehicle because you aren't taking the new car depreciation hit, so it's almost an unfair comparison. By the time the Toyota/Scion/Subaru is out you'll probably be able to pick up a base 370z or 2011 Mustang GT for mid-low 20s, since I've seen them as low as 25-26k already. The first gen Genesis Coupe will probably drop its value some when the new model hits too. And if you don't care about weight, you can already get a first gen CTS-V for under 20k. Add a few grand for an aftermarket warranty if you're afraid of something breaking, and you're set till 100k.

I've owned two brand new cars though, and there is a really good feeling associated with having a brand new vehicle. :D

I think.. you own an Exige and a BMW, why bother at all? :iono:

That right there is truth. Lord knows they could have offered that combo as a GT trim or whatever.

:word:


UZ > JZ.

I would agree with you guys on that as well. Give me that GS400 engine with 300hp and 310 tq and I would be one happy person.

True... but isn't UZ only comes in AT tranny (iirc)?